[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

It's just time for Scotland to stand on it's own 2 feet and live or die by it's own democratic choices.

But doesn't [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17094333 ]Devo Max[/url] satisfy that?

Wee Eck seemed to think it was a good option:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9369801/Alex-Salmond-Devo-max-instead-of-independence-is-very-attractive.html

GrahamS - Member
It's just time for Scotland to stand on it's own 2 feet and live or die by it's own democratic choices.
But doesn't Devo Max satisfy that?

Devo max is an imaginary carrot.

But doesn't Devo Max satisfy that?

But where can we vote for Devo Max?

Scottish living in Edinburgh and, unless something spectacularly bad happens, I'll be voting Yes in the referendum.

I don't think anyone denies that Scotland is a country in its own right therefore it should govern its own affairs. Pretty simple really.

@seosaam77 - I too respect your choice and conviction. However the world is changing and countries are getting bigger. A small independent nation cannot survive economically (frankly the UK is too small already really). Salmond is trying to keep the British Pound for example, he knows an Independent Scotland would be sunk with it's own currency waiting to be accepted into the euro (it would not be accepted immediately I believe to the EU as a full member or to the euro).

Graham - hence my comment about the elephant in the room. Once again (possibly) the best interests of the people is lost in the political battles. As others say, the winners are the lawyers and the poliiticians rather than the people they represent.

Funnily enough I think we have seen that somewhere else not so far away quite recently!!!!

@dazh - London would be massively better off if it where independent (it will never happen). London already pays for all the social housing required for low paid workers, fact is it also pays a lot towards the social housing and wealthfare for the rest of the country. Just look at stamp duty revenues and income tax by geography, the South East supports the rest of the UK.

I'm not sure how true that is overall though. London receives massive amounts of government spending, e.g. on transport, the arts, jobs located there.

Devo Max isn't on the table
...
But where can we vote for Devo Max?

And that's part of why I am a "No" vote. I'd gladly vote for Scotland to have more independent power, but not at the cost of the union.

If Devo Max [i]was[/i] on the table, I'd vote for it. I think that's what a sizable number of Scots really want and is a compromise that many more on both sides could live with.

I don't think anyone denies that Scotland is a country in its own right therefore it should govern its own affairs. Pretty simple really.

And Devo Max would satisfy that.

jambalaya - Member
@seosaam77 - I too respect your choice and conviction. However the world is changing and countries are getting bigger. A small independent nation cannot survive economically (frankly the UK is too small already really). Salmond is trying to keep the British Pound for example, he knows an Independent Scotland would be sunk with it's own currency waiting to be accepted into the euro (it would not be accepted immediately I believe to the EU as a full member or to the euro).

This is the thing I see between the yes and the no camp, the no camp seems to have a fear of not matching up to the historical place britain has had in the world.

I don't share those fears at all. neither do I care for the aims of being a global superpower.

I'm happy enough for Scotland to find it's own place in the world.

Hate has absolutely nothing to do with it.

to be honest, I think for a lot of people, those who aren't interested in politics, or economy, it does, maybe not hate, but certainly anti-englishism.

maybe not hate, but certainly anti-englishism.

I think you have to differentiate [i]"anti-english-rule"[/i] with [i]"anti-english"[/i]. They are two very different things, but the rhetoric can often sound the same.

Looking at some of the comments on this thread, there seems to be a degree of anti-scots rhetoric going on too.

bigjim - Member
Hate has absolutely nothing to do with it.
to be honest, I think for a lot of people, those who aren't interested in politics, or economy, it does, maybe not hate, but certainly anti-englishism.

While the group of the UK as a whole is democratic(so crying of freedom don't wash with me). It's not a democratic group that works for Scotland. For me that's more or less the reasoning I hear from people. and my basic reasoning.

Btw if separation does happen, I don't see scotland and england moving too far apart anyhow, definitely not in the short term. But in the long term Scotland will be able to make subtle decisions for itself that make all the difference.

Plus it'll be much easier to chase a bunch of scottish charlatans than it is westminster charlatans(who have it all sown up.)

I think you have to differentiate "anti-english-rule" with "anti-english". They are two very different things, but the rhetoric can often sound the same.

Looking at some of the comments on this thread, there seems to be a degree of anti-scots rhetoric going on too.

What will happen if/when there is a No vote. Can Eck just call another referendum and keep going?

If it wasnt for english people repeatedly telling me that I hate them, I'm sure I'd quite like the english.

Yes for me, but can we change it back if it doesnt work?

Yes for me, but can we change it back if it doesnt work?

Scottish living in Scotland.

I'll be voting Yes.

I'd like my electoral vote to count for something and maybe one day to actually be part of a democratic process, so no alternative for me.

I'd also like to try and be part of a democracy where the government obeys the people, not the other way round like in the UK set up.

..the no camp seems to have a fear of not matching up to the historical place britain has had in the world...
I'm happy enough for Scotland to find it's own place in the world.

Even if it turns out to be this place?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

?

GrahamS - Member

Even if it turns out to be this place?

I've got a confidence in the Scottish people that the no camp don't have.

I've got a confidence in the Scottish people that the no camp don't have.

That is the kind of rhetoric I [i]really[/i] dislike. 🙁

The whole [i]"if you vote No then you are a coward, you don't believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot"[/i] approach. It is no way to have a debate.

Someone hit the nail on the head in The Scotsman the other day:

"SNP are starting to sound like pushers. 'Try it, you'll feel great! What are you scared? How about I give you some sweeties for the kids. No, not now....only when you see things my way'. ' I know everyone else says this is bad for you but my independent advice says they're all wrong. Go on, try it or you won't be a true Scot."

I'd also like to try and be part of a democracy where the government obeys the people, not the other way round like in the UK set up.

Good luck with that one, although I fear whoever you vote for the government always gets in.

GrahamS - Member
I've got a confidence in the Scottish people that the no camp don't have.
That is the kind of rhetoric I really dislike.

The whole "if you vote No then you are a coward, you don't believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot" approach. It is no way to have a debate.

The white paper is basically a starting point, it doesn't and can't have all the answers.

In the event of a yes vote, there will be a year and a bit of campaigning and positioning of parties before we go to the polls to elect a new government. Only then can we start to get proper answers to what Scotland will start to look like post independence.

You're looking for definitive answers that aren't there and cannot be there imo. But if you want to discuss them, batter in, I made my mind up a long time ago.

FWIW I'd have voted for DevoMax.

That's why I'm undecided/not sure for the referendum. And I think there's a grave misunderstanding that the 16 & 17 year olds will be automatically voting 'Yes' - not the case from my hearing of things round here anyway.

Westminster - governed from really far away. Holyrood - governed from slightly smaller, slightly less far away (with apologies to father Ted).

mogrim - Member
I'd also like to try and be part of a democracy where the government obeys the people, not the other way round like in the UK set up.
Good luck with that one, although I fear whoever you vote for the government always gets in.

aye here's the thing though, in scotland we've already embraced the like of proportional representation. Westminister has no intention of developing it's democratic structures. Scotland does, so eventually I reckon scotland will actually change the structures of democracy to become more democratic.

It's the reason why democracy is broken in this country, democracy needs to develop itself all the time to stay democratic.

Indeed. Wanting to know every detail before independence is like not getting married without knowing what jobs you'll have in future, where you're going to live for the rest of your life, and how many kids you'll have.

The future is uncertain. It's uncertain if you vote yes, it's uncertain if you vote no.

The whole "if you vote No then you are a coward, you don't believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot" approach. It is no way to have a debate.

There's a name for that. 🙂

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The whole "if you vote No then you are a coward, you don't believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot" approach. It is no way to have a debate.

Is that any worse than saying 'if you vote yes you're all going to end up destitute like the greeks' which seems to be the only argument of the no campaign. You're right in that the entire campaign will essentially boil down to one of hope/optimism vs fear/negativity. I'm normally a cynic on these things and think people will eventually vote with their pockets, but I think in this case, as long as Salmond doesn't overdo the William Wallace rhetoric, optimism and hope might win the day.

'if you vote yes you're all going to end up destitute like the greeks'

Indeed, Salmond believes Scotland should be more like Ireland and Iceland (Harvard speech). He also claimed HBOS and RBS as Scottish. Is he taking their debts with him? He's also planning to woo companies like JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley. Is that the type of economy Scotland wants; London-lite?

It's perfectly feasible that Scotland will be prosperous, but Salmond does not have the answers. Scotland would stand a better chance with a good leader, I hope he doesn't get elected.

"a good leader".

He's not great, as a politician he is pretty adept (all relative, has pulled some corkers), but when I see the opposition in Holyrood at least, I despair.

Scotsman readers comment on the white paper:
"SNP are starting to sound like pushers. 'Try it, you'll feel great! What are you scared of? How about I give you some sweeties for the kids. No, not now....only when you see things my way'. ' I know everyone else says this is bad for you but my independent advice says they're all wrong. Go on, try it or you won't be a true Scot."

Scotsman readers comment on the white paper:
"SNP are starting to sound like pushers. 'Try it, you'll feel great! What are you scared of? How about I give you some sweeties for the kids. No, not now....only when you see things my way'. ' I know everyone else says this is bad for you but my independent advice says they're all wrong. Go on, try it or you won't be a true Scot.

It's a shame that's basically the entire no campaign, sneer as much as you can and offer no alternative.

sneer as much as you can and offer no alternative.

The alternative, for me, is Devo Max.
And since that isn't being offered, the status quo.

Basically I think we're stronger standing together (and I'm pro-european for much the same reason).
But that doesn't mean we can't self-govern.

Scotland, Scottish, and rather reluctantly voting yes- you could say I've been driven to it by the UK rather than being a nationalist.

I'm Scottish, lived in Scotland all my life and will be voting YES.

I was undecided until a few weeks ago but the discussions I've seen and heard in the media have persuaded me that we have to give this a go. The arguments against independence have driven me mad. I've heard a number of mentions of it being like the end of a relationship where one person wants to leave but the other doesn't want to let them go. This allegory trivialises the debate, for me this is about Scotland having the ability to govern all aspects of Scottish life, not about problems with a relationship. There is only 1 Tory MP in Scotland but we have to accept being governed by a Tory led coalition, how does that represent us effectively?

In PMQs yesterday, CMD said independence would cost each Scot £1000. That is a price I would happily pay, even if I can't really afford to, if it meant that we would be governed by people that understood the needs of this country.

As long as Scotland takes their equal share of the trillion pound debt with them I say fine.

I don't want Scotland to leave but soundbites, promises of 'we'll make it better' ring alot louder than 'keep it as it is sadly.

I just wish Wales was in this position and not Scotland.

Scottish in Scotland and will be voting no. I'd possibly vote for devo max if it was on the table though.

I'm sure Scotland could survive on its own but we have been linked with the rest fo the UK for so long that I just dont see how it would work in practice.

Also voting on the basis of child care policies or pensions is crazy. These are party policy subjects rather than constitutional ones.

Also voting on the basis of child care policies or pensions is crazy. These are party policy subjects rather than constitutional ones.

I think the whole debate would benefit from some unbiased academic input. The white paper is too tied up with an SNP manifesto. A vote for Yes appears to be a vote for Salmond, a vote for No for Darling and co. It should not be like that.

I'd like devo max too but shot down straight away by cmd..
Voting yes for a better future for me and my family..Not because I hate anyone. Fail to see what the no campaign is offering us rather than the status quo- which for me isnt good enough.
Seem to recall a lot of promises being made back in the 70s about how things would be better after a no vote- that turned out to be a great 10 or so years for Scotland didnt it?
Someone mentioned that folk in Wales and the North suffered just as much as Scotland under the Tory government of the 80s.. theres no doubt about it but the Tory government did seem to have a special place in their hearts when it came to Scotland eh?

Sorry thm I don't know but then I am not a golfist or a fifer. Elie is a nice place though and I did enjoy biking the Fife Coastal path. ...didn't enjoy cleaning the sand out of my gears though:-)

Scottish living in Scotland and will vote yes. Wife says she will be voting yes too.

The Yes campaign is cynically and depressingly opportunistic.
10-15 years ago Salmond et al were saying that we should be proud of RBS and BoS and that if we were independent we could be as wealthy as Iceland. Then Iceland's banking sector collapsed catastrophically.
Next Salmond et al were saying that we could be a Celtic Tiger like Ireland if we were independent. Then Irelands construction industry and banks collapsed.
New flavour of the month is that if we become independent we will be as rich and successful as the Nordic countries.
The Yes campaign are charlatans selling snake oil.

Have people not learned from the 1997 "Things can only get better" type of political campaigning?
Things can get a lot worse and, for small countries, they can get worse very fast.

Why are the needs of Scotland any different to those of Wales, Yorkshire, or Devon?

Btw if separation does happen, I don't see scotland and england moving too far apart anyhow

Depends how wide they make the moat!

Someone mentioned that folk in Wales and the North suffered just as much as Scotland under the Tory government of the 80s.. theres no doubt about it but the Tory government did seem to have a special place in their hearts when it came to Scotland eh?

It was me.

This is where I struggle with the Scottish English/Tory paranoia. The poor put upon Scots!

You ever go to Consett in the early 1980's? Or the Durham coalfield? Liverpool was absolutely hammered in the 1980's.
I am certain that similar areas of Scotland were ****ed in an equally shitty manner but definitely no worse.

Dry your eyes, it was a class thing and not an area/country thing. If Surrey had steelworks they would of ****ed them as well.

Living in Scotland but not Scottish, will vote No. If Scotland did say Yes I wouldn't rush to leave, but probably would make me more keen to move elsewhere with time.