[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

Grum I think Devo Max was dead in the water right from the start despite having quite a bit of popular support. The political parties on all sides were against it, SNP because of fears it would split the independence vote, Unionist partly because of its implications for other parts of the and mainly because they feared it would merely be a gradual step toward independence. I think its better explained here

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/09/03/question-time-2/

I'd agree that Devo Max is probably what most people want. Why isn't it an option?

That's because Devo Max is taking the piss. It is having your cake and eating it. The student with the credit card analogy would have be taken to another level if the SNP got devo max.

Still the Spanish PM is weighing in with his expected level of support. Of course, that part is all covered in the 667 pages!!! Expect wee eck to ignore the conclusion but focus on anohpther European leader describing him as the President of Scotland already. Does EIIR know yet?

The Spanish don't really distinguish between PM and President, and the local autonomous communities (Catalonia, Andalusia etc.) all have presidents. I'm sure that won't stop Salmond from making the most of that bit of the message, of course!

"...where do you stand?"
probably next to the fire to keep warm.

Will it be so popular that it is standing room only?

There are plenty of issues for the North of England. Yes, the scots may not want the north of England involved. That's fine. No one is suggesting that the north of England be forced upon the scots against their will. There may come a point though when the north of England demands autonomy from London for exactly the same reasons as the scots are now doing. If/when that happens, and depending on how independence plays out for the Scots, there may well be a convincing argument for the North of England to join Scotland for each side's mutual benefit.

Scot living in Scotland and a definite no from me, GF's the same. My father is also a no, step mums the same. Most of my mates are no or undecided.

In fact the only person I know voting yes for sure is Druidh 😆

There may come a point though when the north of England demands autonomy from London for exactly the same reasons as the scots are now doing. If/when that happens, and depending on how independence plays out for the Scots, there may well be a convincing argument for the North of England to join Scotland for each side's mutual benefit.

We're semi-seriously considering emigrating if Scotland doesn't get independence.

Ha! I might have to move with my job if it does go independent.

Back on topic
Scottish living in Scotland (doubly blessed) Yes
Mrs Duck; Welsh lucky enough to be married to a Scot. Yes

the north of England demands autonomy from London

FFS this is just getting silly now.

I would imagine London would jump at the chance. 8 million people living in some kind economic super city. Not having to worry about there under performing neighbours!

Anyway what about the Midlands?

Why not just go the whole hog and have anarchy?*

*By that I mean a truly anarchic state with no central government and not chaos and rioting.

English, almost as far from Scotland as I can be without falling into the sea.
I don't care enough to even post on this thread.

English, with some scots-canadian ancestry. I hope the scots vote yes, and just to ensure the vote goes that way I want the franchise extended throughout the UK so that we can vote to be rid of them.

I am Scottish and British and a UK Citizen.
I am proud of all 3 and I know the difference between them.
I am voting NO, my wife is voting NO.

I believe the referendum will give a clear NO vote, but I fear the damage and bad feeling that Salmond and his cohorts are going to cause in the next 10 months. I fear that there is trouble ahead regardless.

How could the Scots resist having some of this kind of culture as part of their proud independent nation?

My OH's Moms Partner thinks we should all get to vote as it will effect us in England too...

By that effect, maybe the whole world should be governed in the same manner, oh wait...Team America!

Seems like most Scottish STWers are voting no...

For those worried about England being condemmed forever more to rule by the Tories if Scotland breaks away, in every election since the late 60s (at least) if you removed the Scottish vote from the overall then the rest of the UK would have ended up with the same government that was elected with Scottish votes included.

Show how little influence we Scots have over the government we get and is a main reason for me wanting independence

Show how little influence we Scots have over the government we get and is a main reason for me wanting independence

We'll just ignore Blair and Brown, then?

For those worried about England being condemmed forever more to rule by the Tories if Scotland breaks away, in every election since the late 60s (at least) if you removed the Scottish vote from the overall then the rest of the UK would have ended up with the same government that was elected with Scottish votes included.

Don't think that's quite true. IIRC '64 and '74 would have been different and this last election would have been a Tory majority rather than a coalition (you can argue there's no difference though 🙁 ).

Show how little influence we Scots have over the government we get and is a main reason for me wanting independence

If you live in a 'safe' constituency as most of us do then you don't have any influence over the government you get either. The difference is Scotland potentially gets to potentially do something about it.

BLair and (by default) Brown were voted in by the English electorate as were Thatcher and Major. Scots didn't vote for Thatcher or Major at any point but were landed with them anyway, we arguably suffered the most from their policies as well.

Grum, the figures I saw said that the Scots vote was not decisive in any recent election, I will go and check up on this though. Sorry if I'm spreading mis-information.(If I am I guess there's always hope of a career in politics)

For long time I've thought that the problem lies within London and the South East.
My proposal is to make everything within the M25 an independent state, outside Europe. We'll be happy, they'll be happy.
If that happens, the rest of us will be quite happy to continue as the UK I'm guessing!

we arguably suffered the most from their policies as well.

Really? I know plenty of Geordies and Scousers who will happily argue that with you!

I'm liking the idea that Scotland gets independence, the north of England applies to join and at a later date Wales follows suit.
It could be called the United Trailcentres of Britain.

Still wouldn't vote for independence (even if I got a vote).

Edit: Deveron has the answer.

For me the argument about Westminster rule rings very true, but is an argument for increased powers for the Scottish government (Devo Max), not a complete dissolution of the union.

igm - Member
I'm liking the idea that Scotland gets independence, the north of England applies to join and at a later date Wales follows suit.
It could be called the United Trailcentres of Britain.

Why does everyone think the North of England is part of Scotland? We sorted that one out years ago.

In the last general election only slightly less people voted Conservative in Scotland than voted SNP, and Labour's vote was only a bit more than double the Conservatives.

Yes they only won one seat but it's not quite 'no-one votes Conservative in Scotland'. Interestingly the Tories were dominant in Scotland until 1955 or so.

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An interesting view of the SNP vote here:

So, it would appear that, certainly 50 or so years ago, Scots tended to be marginally MORE Conservative than English. But you will also know, of course, that, to make broad generalisations to which there are obviously a few exceptions on both sides, Conservative supporters tend to be more oriented towards the individual, while Labour supporters are towards society. And, of course, one way in which "the individual" manifests itself is in the tendency to be more inward-looking than outward-looking. Hence, for instance, the greater measure of support in the Conservative ranks for such things as withdrawal from the EU and so on.

In the context of Scotland, "the individual" also finds another ready outlet, with the entity being Scotland itself. In effect, what has happened is that a large number of people who, put in and English setting, would be Conservative supporters are, in the Scottish setting, SNP supporters. It is, thus, almost certain that, in an English setting, Labour-held seats such as Edinburgh South, Ochil and Stirling would, this election, have returned Conservative MPs, as the combined Conservative and SNP vote in each is more than the Labour vote.

Also, over the years, the steady erosion of the Conservative heartlands by the Lib-Dems (as was also happening in large parts of SW England and Cornwall), coupled with the loss of the "traditional" Protestant vote for the Conservatives in the Glasgow area (now you know why Rangers play in blue), combined to significantly weaken Conservative presence in Scotland, so it could be that many Scots no longer felt the Conservatives to be a particularly credible choice. Add to that general decline the emergence of the SNP - with a spectacular by-election victory, seat taken from Labour, in Hamilton - and the Conservative fate in Scotland was secured: the mainstream right, by and large, now switched to the SNP.

So, those "die-hard" areas in the Highlands that the Liberals had been unable to take fell, in time, to the SNP.

My proposal is to make everything within the M25 an independent state, outside Europe.

London's already a tax haven for foreign billionaires. The solution is not to give them even more autonomy from national and international regulation, but to tax them until they bleed within the current system.

Why does everyone think the North of England is part of Scotland? We sorted that one out years ago.

Pffft.. I tell my Scottish mates that the North of England is really just South South Scotland 😀

The SNP used to be known years ago as the tartan tories but that is clearly not the case now,50 years or so have passed since then.There is a tory support in Scotland but it is extremely low and there is no evidence that it is growing.

I can't vote anyway but in my experience it's best not to vote for anything where those whose idea it is aren't going to be left carrying the can or bearing any undisclosed/unidentified/inaccurately specified cost.

I can see politicians, advisers and the legal profession doing awfully well out of this, I'm less convinced about the rest of us.

.There is a tory support in Scotland but it is extremely low and there is no evidence that it is growing.

There is a tory support in Scotland but it is extremely low and there is no evidence that it is growing.

No new houses or golf memberships available in Elie then Gordie?

There is a tory support in Scotland but it is extremely low

Only 3.2 percent less than support for the SNP, according to the last election.

yes tories still flatlining in all elections.SNP vote is low in uk election but still up.

Tory support up 0.9% on previous.

JOIN SCOTLAND?! JOIN SCOTLAND?! It was them bastards that betrayed us to Edmund and lead to the loss of his majesty on the raise and the blinding of his sons. This after our glorious contribution at Brunabur, Malcolms issue can stuff it, we'd rather burn.

I am British, born and live in England. I very much hope the vote is No but appreciate it's not my decision. I think the UK is stronger, economically and culturally as a combined group of nations.

If Scotland does vote Yes I would look very closely at the way Independence is setup. I wouldn't be in favour of allowing Scotland to use the Pound, I would insist Scotland takes it's share of the British National debt, I would insist it has it's own membership of the EU and not piggy back on the British membership. The British submarine fleet should be moved.

I think if Scotland votes Yes the rest of Britain should have a referendum on ejecting them totally from the UK.

FWIW I am not a Tory supporter.

Scottish, resident in Scotland work all over the UK. I will be voting YES for independence, as are all family members eligible to vote.

I have already disowned those who previously indicated they were voting NO. 🙂

Prior to that it was probably a 50-50 split amongst the family.

Amongst friends it seems to 60-40 in favour of NO vote.

Amongst colleagues I have no idea as no-one seems to ever have the conversation.

Overall I think it will be closer than polls predict, but I fear the NO vote will just edge it. This would make things a bit interesting post referendum.

I think if Scotland votes Yes the rest of Britain should have a referendum on ejecting them totally from the UK.

Think you have somewhat missed the point of the referendum!

I would imagine London would jump at the chance. 8 million people living in some kind economic super city. Not having to worry about there under performing neighbours!

It wouldn't be an economic super city if all the people they rely on to do the dirty jobs up-sticks and leave for other parts of the country because they can't afford to work or live in London. It'd essentially become a ghetto (albeit a very luxurious one) for the rich serviced by immigrant labour. If you look at other tax havens like Monaco, Liechtenstein etc they're very wealthy, but hardly economic powerhouses.

Anyway what about the Midlands?

What about them? 😀

Absolute yes. For good or bad. From Glasgow.

Absolute yes. For good or bad.

That's the type of conviction I admire. There's too much "maybe, but only if I will be no less well off".

[b]dazh[/b] - Member
London's already a tax haven for foreign billionaires. The solution is not to give them even more autonomy from national and international regulation, but to tax them until they bleed within the current system.

The rules for London are no different than the rest of the UK for wealthy foreigners. Most of them choose to live in and around London. With housing stamp duty at 7% for over £2m properties I think taxes are already quite high for them - no ? They tend to spend money and pay a lot of VAT.

As for "bleeding" them, that's just politics of envy. The French have seen what 75% (declared illegal) and 66% taxes have done for earnings over €1m, their citizens have left. Spoke to a horse racing trainer a month ago and the French raving scene has been decimated as the owners have left, those that care for horses, train them etc, they are not millionaires but depend on the wealthy for their livelihood. David Beckham came an played football for free, he waived his €5m salary (had equivalent amount donated it charity, the government even tried to tax that). At 50% tax perhaps the French would have collected €2.5m instead of zero.

ads678 - Member
I'm English/British, and very bored with the whole thing. As I don't have a vote I wonder why it's even on the news down here.

I say go for it, you already hate us so you may as well hate us across a proper border!

Hate has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's just time for Scotland to stand on it's own 2 feet and live or die by it's own democratic choices.

@dazh - London would be massively better off if it where independent (it will never happen). London already pays for all the social housing required for low paid workers, fact is it also pays a lot towards the social housing and wealthfare for the rest of the country. Just look at stamp duty revenues and income tax by geography, the South East supports the rest of the UK. I don't have an issue with that as such, it's normal for a capital city. It's the bleed them type comment which I say, most respectfully, is misguided.