[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

SD-253, I get paid £6.31 an hour. You?

SD I don't know if you are racist or not, I do think you are a tadger though!

konabunny/wiggles. It is generally accepted by both sides of the Indy debate that iScotland will want to allow in more immigrants than rUK. In fact, one of the scare stories is that this will result in a need for border guards at Carter Bar (neatly ignoring the fact that Eire and the UK currently have different immigration policies and a shared travel area without any problems)

.konabunny - Member
Gordimhor: it says

Scotland's differing demographic and migration needs mean that the UK immigration system has not served our interests
It doesn't say

Scotland needs more immigrants

Since when does the UK set the rules for immigration? And do please tell me how Scotland is affected by UK immigration rules. Surely Scotland can get the immigrants it needs from within the EU? Or are you saying you need non EU immigrants? Your answer IF it is forthcoming will be interesting!

[quote=SD-253 ]
Since when does the UK set the rules for immigration? And do please tell me how Scotland is affected by UK immigration rules.
Immigration policy is not currently devolved to the Scottish Government.

.scotroutes - Member
SD-253, I get paid £6.31 an hour. You

. I don't believe you, if you did you would understand just how badly effected the working class are by mass immigration. AND wages which are far below £6.31 an hour. My wages? I live of you I have a Army disability pension. So I can only gain from mass immigration but I have morals. I don't like to see people working 12 hours a day 6 days a week to get the equivalent of what you get for 36 hour week.

scotroutes - Member
SD-253 »
Since when does the UK set the rules for immigration? And do please tell me how Scotland is affected by UK immigration rules.
Immigration policy is not currently devolved to the Scottish Government.

you haven't answered the question why does Scotland need immigrants from outside the EU?

Immigration law is reserved to the UK government, not devolved to the Scottish government. As I already mentioned Scotland needs immigrants of working age from anywhere.

[quote=SD-253 ] you haven't answered the question why does Scotland need immigrants from outside the EU?
Who has said it needs immigrants [i]specifically[/i] from outside the EU?

.seosamh77 - Member
SD I don't know if you are racist or not, I do think you are a tadger though!

. No idea what that means guessing it means working class scum who doesn't know his place? Forgive me if I got that wrong!

.scotroutes - Member
SD-253 » you haven't answered the question why does Scotland need immigrants from outside the EU?
Who has said it needs immigrants specifically from outside the EU?

what other possible reason would it need a different immigration policy?

Scotland needs a different immigration policy because the population of working age is shrinking and the elderly population is growing.

I don't believe you, if you did you would understand just how badly effected the working class are by mass immigration. AND wages which are far below £6.31 an hour. My wages? I live of you I have a Army disability pension. So I can only gain from mass immigration but I have morals. I don't like to see people working 12 hours a day 6 days a week to get the equivalent of what you get for 36 hour week.

Care to show any proof immigration leads to lower wages?

As already pointed out recent studies have shown immigrants are net contributors to the economy and we (possibly) have more people leaving the country than coming in.

People working for less than minimum wage is not just down to immigration is it? just because people are allowed into the country doesn't mean nothing can be done to stop them working illegally...

. No idea what that means guessing it means working class scum who doesn't know his place? Forgive me if I got that wrong!

Being the oracle of the working class I'm surprised you don't understand a working class word when you see one! 😆

gordimhor - Member
Scotland needs a different immigration policy because the population of working age is shrinking and the elderly population is growing.

as per the rest of the UK and for that matter the whole of the EU. So what the hell are you talking about? Why make up excuses for leaving the union? Just be honest,is that within your ability?

I support independence because I want better government for Scotland none of the unionist parties offer that.

Why does Scotland want different immigration policy from the UK? It's not so much because we have different immigration needs than the UK. It's more because UK immigration policy isn't actually designed to satisfy the UK's needs- it's headlines and buzzwords first and last.

The major difference is that the Scottish electorate seem a bit less easily pleased by this sort of thing, we're more in favour of immigration policy based on sanity.

.wiggles - Member
Care to show any proof immigration leads to lower wages?

I believe its called supply and demand! I am ignoring the main supporters of immigration the Labour party saying exactly that.

As already pointed out recent studies have shown immigrants are net contributors to the economy and

only if you are selective with the statistics Boston is struggling to supply medical care for vast increase in immigrants. Schools have to teach children to speak English before they can teach them normally. Clearly there is an increase in costs or alternatively the British born children are loosing out. There's always this assumption that immigrants will stay in the UK and continue to pay high taxes and be net contributers thats assuming they are (they are not). Why would they do this? Once there own country catches up economically they will be off. Leaving us with more schools, hospitals etc than we need.

we (possibly) have more people leaving the country than coming in.

wow you must be the only person who believes that. And please tell me why the "books should balance"

People working for less than minimum wage is not just down to immigration is it? just because people are allowed into the country doesn't mean nothing can be done to stop them working illegally...

actually that is entirely the cause when we were short of Labour wages went up again supply and demand. AND I was not aware I was talking about illegal immigrants, where did I mention them? But as you brought it up it does appear that there is nothing that can be done to stop them working illegally BUT I doubt they are the main contributers to the working class being spat on by the middle class. No that is down to people who support mass immigration. Oh well at least your Labour party has garunteed its self lots of extra votes!

Cheers Northwind you got that right!I have no evidence to back this up with but I really believe a lot of people currently supporting Ukip on immigration would change their mind if other mainstream parties would try to take on the issues rather than weeping and wailing about how awful the people supporting ukip or complaining about immigration are, currently the whole immigration debate is driven by The Daily Mail/ Daily Express and other right wing media,th e mainstream parties have left the ground open to con men like Nigel Farage etc

Youre right about Boston situation SD-253 but it is you who is being selective with statistics. The Boston situation is not repeated throughout the UK. As for the real reason wages have fallen so far behind inflation, I reckon the culprits are in the banks and in Conservative Party Head Office,

SD-253 - Member

only if you are selective with the statistics Boston is struggling to supply medical care for vast increase in immigrants. Schools have to teach children to speak English before they can teach them normally. Clearly there is an increase in costs or alternatively the British born children are loosing out. There's always this assumption that immigrants will stay in the UK and continue to pay high taxes and be net contributers thats assuming they are (they are not). Why would they do this? Once there own country catches up economically they will be off. Leaving us with more schools, hospitals etc than we need.

But it has been proven that (recent) immigrants do make a net contribution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

we (possibly) have more people leaving the country than coming in.
wow you must be the only person who believes that. And please tell me why the "books should balance"

OK I worded that wrong, currently more people are coming than going but overall there are more brits living overseas than immigrants living in the UK.

People working for less than minimum wage is not just down to immigration is it? just because people are allowed into the country doesn't mean nothing can be done to stop them working illegally...
actually that is entirely the cause when we were short of Labour wages went up again supply and demand. AND I was not aware I was talking about illegal immigrants, where did I mention them? But as you brought it up it does appear that there is nothing that can be done to stop them working illegally BUT I doubt they are the main contributes to the working class being spat on by the middle class. No that is down to people who support mass immigration. Oh well at least your Labour party has garunteed its self lots of extra votes!

You said people are working for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for less than what someone else earns in a normal working week, so therefore that < minumum wage = illegal. Nothing to do with their immigration status. Obviously illegal immigration is not a good thing so there is no point arguing over that. I love how you know who I vote for without me ever mentioning any political party 😉

.gordimhor - Member
Cheers Northwind you got that right!I have no evidence to back this up with but I really believe a lot of people currently supporting Ukip on immigration would change their mind if other mainstream parties would try to take on the issues rather than weeping and wailing about how awful the people supporting ukip or complaining about immigration are, currently the whole immigration debate is driven by The Daily Mail/ Daily Express and other right wing media,th e mainstream parties have left the ground open to con men like Nigel Farage etc

. Correct all the news is supplied by the Daily Mail nobody listens to the BBC? Which has admitted that it is biassed in favour of immigrants. I expect the Mails readership probably amounts to 5% of the population all of whome receive news from the BBC as well.

Not illegal if you make them self employed or you give them 12 hours worth of parcels to deliver in 8 hours. The recent tv programme followed delivery drivers being paid for 8 hours still working after 14 hours. Again supply and demand the influx of legal immigrants has resulted in pressure on working class wages.... Are you seriously denying that?

I do not believe that the BBC has "admitted" being in favour of immigrants. However I will loudly applaud if it has.

.gordimhor - Member
Youre right about Boston situation SD-253 but it is you who is being selective with statistics. The Boston situation is not repeated throughout the UK. As for the real reason wages have fallen so far behind inflation, I reckon the culprits are in the banks and in Conservative Party Head Office,

So supply and Demand are not a factor in the Labour market? Drugs are bad for you!!

yes supply [i]AND[/i] demand... but as mentioned if the bankers(not just them) hadn't sent us into a recession then there would be a lot more demand for workers than there is now.

I feel this has now gone somewhat off topic... especially as we all seem to be arguing against each other despite agreeing over the original question.

.gordimhor - Member
I do not believe that the BBC has "admitted" being in favour of immigrants. However I will loudly applaud if it has.

Biased in its news reporting of immigration.
Have I got this right you support bias in a news broadcastor or you support bias in news broadcasters who support your views? The BBC is paid by the taxpayer I would have thought only facists etc would support bias by a state broadcastor.

wiggles - Member
yes supply AND demand... but as mentioned if the bankers(not just them) hadn't sent us into a recession then there would be a lot more demand for workers than there is now,

I believe unemployment is getting close to pre recession figures and the working classes wages are continueing to fall. How can you not see that any increase in demand for Labour will be filled by immigration and not by higher wages??

but unemployment figures improving doesn't mean we are as well off as we were before the recession does it? just because people have jobs doesn't they are as (comparatively) well paid, due to inflation, pay freezes etc.

I'm not saying immigration will not effect increased demand for labour but isn't that pretty much always the case? It's not like immigration is a recent thing.

Still no evidence that the BBC

has admitted that it is biassed in favour of immigrants.

I would gladly support the BBC in being biased in favour of immigrants if that meant taking a stance against those parts of the media pedalling lies and promoting racial/ethnic/religous prejudice and hatred.

"Konabunny The whole aim of coalition immigration policy has been to reduce net immigration. The article in the FT says that a policy allowing more immigration would be an aid to economic growth in Scotland. The Scottish government has set population growth targets which it will not achieve because of aUK immigration policy which takes no account of the situation in Scotland."

That's great - but that's not what those words you quoted say.

I think the idea that there is a cosy immigrant-welcoming consensus in Scotland about which everyone can be smug is misplaced. The shit will hit the fan once the focus of the Soottish Daily Mail changes from anti-English hysteria to anti-immigrant hysteria.

Its because the BBC tries to provide a fair coverage for all points of view in its news and current affairs that lead to it being accused of bias.
PS I will still be able to watch the BBC in an independent Scotland. 🙂

Konabunny there is more acceptance of a need for immigration in Scotland but you are right there is no cause to be smug,with the right policies and attitudes (and hard work)Scotland can avoid those problems. I have heard some pretty awful anti English remarks but they are rare and honestly come just as often from people on the Better together side. Not sure there is a Scottish Daily Mail I think they just "put a kilt on " The Daily Mail, anyway The Daily Record is bad enough.

you lot must be all up watching the cricket 🙂
Picking up on a few things what is to stop people exploiting locals to work for less than minimum wage, is it more or less of a story than doing it to immigrants?
I would have to say the BBC is a very good down the middle impartial broadcaster just against the UKIP/Murdoch side it looks left wing. Also refusing to beat the racist immigration is bad drum is a bold and brave move. It's a debate that should be held with facts but not wailing racist ranting about hoards of immigrants that don't actually exist.

Not illegal if you make them self employed or you give them 12 hours worth of parcels to deliver in 8 hours.

Actually, that is illegal, regardless of the workers' immigration status.

[b]scotroutes[/b]-member

I get paid £6.31 an hour.

Wow,somebody pays you just to post on STW?

I would have joined in more on this conversation.

But the poor people had been getting rowdy and needed beating down.

I'm middle class y'know.

You do realise that you are arguing about immigration with someone who seems to have a log in that is also a WW2 Nazi Personnel Carrier? 🙄

Knowing that would involve making an effort.

Not my forte

Also, could be a bread maker reference so let's not be prejudiced.

winston_dog - Member
You do realise that you are arguing about immigration with someone who seems to have a log in that is also a WW2 Nazi Personnel Carrier?

am I to assume you are talking about me but haven't got the back bone to say it? Calling me Nazi is yet another attempt at censorship. Either I agree with you or I am Nazi. What a sick view.

Reference BBC admitting bias in favour of immigrants
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100224821/bbc-pays-175000-to-discover-it-has-a-liberal-bias-on-immigration/

Also from the Telegraph.

he BBC could have saved itself some money and just bought a copy of the Daily Mail. In November of last year, it reported that the outgoing Africa editor of the BBC World Service thinks people who vote Conservative are "lower then vermin". Four years ago, the paper revealed that the BBC's controller of drama Ben Stephenson wanted material that was more "left of centre" – the BBC's drama output being insufficiently Left-wing in his opinion. This is not a view shared by Peter Sissons, according to an article by him in the Mail in 2011. "At the core of the BBC, in its very DNA, is a way of thinking that is firmly of the Left," he wrote.
Alternatively, they could read Guilty Men, Peter Oborne and Frances Weaver's essay for the Centre for Policy Studies, in which they expose the full extent of the BBC's bias over the single currency – it was fanatically pro, obviously – or just visit this website which documents the daily instances of the BBC's out-and-out Left-wingery.

And now from the The politically correct Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/jul/03/bbc-deep-liberal-bias-immigration

assume you are talking about me

Of course I was.

I never actually called you a Nazi. I simply made an observation that your log in may be connected to military equipment that was operated by the German Army during the time of the Nazis.

Now I may be completely wrong and it may not have anything to do with military history. It may be a bread maker that floats your boat.

Don't get me wrong I am very interested in WW2 history but I have met quite a few unsavoury characters who have an unhealthy interest in Hitler and his armies and wouldn't bother my arse to discuss/argue politics with them.

By the way, the views and opinions you have expressed on here do not make you a Nazi by any means, IMO.

Also you don't have to be a Nazi to be a racist, fascist or just a bigot.

.winston_dog - Member
assume you are talking about me

Of course I was.

so were implying I was Nazi

I never actually called you a Nazi. I simply made an observation that your log in may be connected to military equipment that was operated by the German Army during the time of the Nazis.

on what basis would you assume I had any interest in Nazi equipment? Is there such a thing as Nazi equipment? Commonsense says German army equipment unless you are saying they something just for Nazi/SS troops?

Now I may be completely wrong

Again why did you make the assumption in the first place. Sorry but you have no chance of censoring my views