I wait for a statue of our first Prime Minister. Could be constructed with resmelted Trident submarines and straddle the Clyde.
It might give all those newly unemployed people something to do.....
pissing away billions of quid on something we don't need and will never use,
Northwind - That statement just highlights your ignorance about how a strategic nuclear deterrent works. Suggest you read up a bit.
Nobody sane ever wants to use them, for obvious reasons but it isn't why you have them.
Scotland's negotiating power should they vote YES will be zero. The rest of the UK will be holding all of the cards as Scotland comes cap in hand - " can we have the pound please Mr Chancellor" "can we please keep some shipbuilding on the Clyde Mr Cameron" "pretty please" etc!
Nobody sane ever wants to use them, for obvious reasons but it isn't why you have them.
It really is astounding that Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, etc etc manage to survive without a strategic nuclear deterrent. They must all be ignorant idiots.
That isn't why you have them. You have them so you can sit with the big boys on the Security Council. It's all fur coat and no knickers, really.
If Scotland decide to leave the UK, i think a fair few countries in the EU would look at their reapplication to the EU in a dim light.....it would certainly rouse the Catalans and the Basques and Pedro wouldn't like that....he's having enough trouble with that little rock just about attached to the coast.
I think Yorkshire should leave too...... 😆
Scotland's negotiating power should they vote YES will be zero. The rest of the UK will be holding all of the cards as Scotland comes cap in hand - " can we have the pound please Mr Chancellor" "can we please keep some shipbuilding on the Clyde Mr Cameron" "pretty please" etc!
should keep the SNP in things to blame the English for another 500 years 😉
Germany, Japan
Now there's a reason for that now isn't there? The Japanese are only allowed a "Defense Force" FFS!
Canada, Australia, New Zealand,
Geographically and politically completely different.
Sweden
Now that's just silly.
You have them so you can sit with the big boys on the Security Council.
You mean the Security Council that we helped to found and is arguably the most important part of the UN? Why wouldn't we want to be on that? Like the French are?
Salmond may be cleverer and more astute that to ban the Conservatives outright, but I can imagine aggresive and dubious tactics will be used to all but eradicate them.
Ignoring the fact that comparing Salmond to Putin is absurd, whatever tactics Salmond would use to eradicate the Tories would hardly be more effective than the work they have done to eradicate themselves in Scotland over the last thirty years.
will English be taught as a second language with far greater time given over to Scots or Gaelic?
Now you're just talking bollocks, to use a fine Anglo-Saxon word.
English be taught as a second language with far greater time given over to Scots or Gaelic? History and Modern Studies will head the same way
Yes this is exactly what will happen
That statement just highlights your ignorance about how a strategic nuclear deterrent works. Suggest you read up a bit.
Could you highlight where we have used it strategically since we had it and what massive advantages over say Spain or Portugal or AN OTHER non nuclear western democracy do you think it has given us?
Who is the country we are trying to deter and from what exactly?
Will it be stopping Al Qaeda?
Who is the enemy just waiting till we are non nuke ready to take advantage of this weakness?
arguably the most important part of the UN?
Very very arguable? Its not like they need them to wage war or use them to right wrongs. though I suspect Israel likes the fact the US vetos all the stuff on them though.
where we have used it strategically since we had it
Everytime a sub goes on patrol. Suggest you look up the defintion of Strategy.
Who is the country we are trying to deter and from what exactly?
Historically it was the USSR. We a currently living in a US hegemony so the lines aren't quite as simple as they were in the Cold War. As nobody can predict what the World will look like in 10 years, nevermind 20, I would prefer to keep it thanks.
The last time we made an effort to disarm was the 1930's and we all know what happened then.
I put this to you. Salmond is currently working to achieve his goal within a political setup created by far better people than himself. If say after time all is not quite going to plan, and there is a growing number of people wishing to return to union, will he allow that voice to be heard fairly, and weighty documents to be produced stating proposals for union? Would he heck!
Yes we use it but I asked what it had given us that other non nukes did not have - can i see the list of achievements please?a high level plan to achieve one or more goals under conditions of uncertainty.
Even you are struggling to identify a threat here and just saying the future is uncertain which is true but justifies nothing really or anything.
Your only claim seems to be, just ours, stops another Hitler happening ...good point well made
The last time we made an effort to disarm was the 1930's and we all know what happened then.
If we had nuclear weapons in the 1930s, so would have Hitler. At what point would we have decided that Armageddon was the best option? When Czechoslovakia was invaded? When the Polish border was crossed? When France was invaded?
There was no point where starting a nuclear war was the best option.
If you get to the stage where a nuclear strike is the only option, you've already lost.
massive advantages over say Spain or Portugal or AN OTHER non nuclear western democracy
You mean all the NATO Countries who sit happily under the Nuclear Umbrella provided by the UK, USA and France?
can i see the list of achievements please?
A prolonged period of peace in Europe seems to be quite an achievement.
When Czechoslovakia was invaded?
It's unlikely he would have invaded. He invaded because he suspected that the French and the UK would not of retaliated. He was right. In reality if they had been strong initially, the Nazis would of backed down, they were nowhere near ready to fight.
I love an argument/discussion gents but isn't this a bit OT? 🙂
I put this to you. Salmond is currently working to achieve his goal within a political setup created by far better people than himself. If say after time all is not quite going to plan, and there is a growing number of people wishing to return to union, will he allow that voice to be heard fairly, and weighty documents to be produced stating proposals for union? Would he heck!
Are you genuinely suggesting that Salmond would erect a Lukashenkoesque police state if Scotland became independent?
The man did not say "I", he said "We".
We? I could say'we' too, meaning Labour voters all over the country.
You act as if there is some fundamental difference between Scots and the rest of us.
You mean all the NATO Countries
Well you could have used AN Other country if you had wished it was free choice. I assume I can take it that you have no answer but you will continue to post retorts that skirt around the issue without admitting you cannot actually demonstrate any actual real success of this strategy nor identify an actual enemy. Still you keep supporting it without an enemy and without any proof of success, that is your right.
A prolonged period of peace in Europe seems to be quite an achievement.
I am not sure how you will prove Nukes were casual in this but I look fwd to seeing you try- I dont really you are not as good at arguing lost causes as you seem to think you are 😉
I would rather have though the UN, the EU and NATO - you know being allies, was far more critical than the fact we had nukes.
Ie we made political and diplomatic peace rather than used diplomacy from the barrel of a gun
He invaded because he suspected that the French and the UK would not of retaliated
Just like with Poland?
I am not sure Hitler, given he invaded his ally Russia, can be considered to have been the most rational of decision makers.
What do the current polls say about the projected vote?
Yes 38%, No 47%, Undecided 15% I believe is the latest poll.
I would rather have though the UN, the EU and NATO
A nuclear NATO made the possible outcome of a Soviet invasion or a NATO preemptive strike stopped either happening. Despite the hawks on both sides. The USSR vastly outnumbered us in men and machinery in Europe.
Just like with Poland?
I am not sure Hitler, given he invaded his ally Russia, can be considered to have been the most rational of decision makers.
Mot sure what you are getting at here?
The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was never an alliance. An extremist far right leader invades an extremist far left country, not exactly a surprise is it? Using that as an example of how irrational Hitler was is a strange one!
Yes 38%, No 47%, Undecided 15% I believe is the latest poll.
That's what this article says:
[url= http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333 ]http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333[/url]
Thanks rene, pretty close then it seems. That undecided 15% comprise of which section of the electorate i wonder?
Where did this argument of Scotland being a peace loving pacifist country in the face of a war mongering neighbour come from? Victims of the Indian Mutiny may have thought differently about both the British army and Scottish regiments. AFAIK Iraq in 2003 is the only conflict where a groundswell of anti war sentiment had little effect. Prior to that time Scotland has been a willing combatant both within and prior to the union. I was in Australia at the time and saw protests in Hobart to the same effect. Several governments took their countries to war against the wishes of its people. As Scotland had no independent government at the time, it is pure speculation to suggest we would not have been involved.
The irony of the sentiment glorifying war in what is considered Scotland's National Anthem appears lost on some. It does talk of the days being "in the past" but with a huge slice of :wink:For the record I am not a supporter of God Save the Queen either. Both should be consigned to the bin.
If we had nuclear weapons in the 1930s, so would have Hitler. At what point would we have decided that Armageddon was the best option? When Czechoslovakia was invaded? When the Polish border was crossed? When France was invaded?
Definitely after France. And then nuke all enemy held territory.
The latest poll courtesy of everyone's favourite paper
You, unless you can highlight anyone else saying it.Where did this argument of Scotland being a peace loving pacifist country in the face of a war mongering neighbour come from?
I feel dirty and used
Another article from the FT that some might find interesting
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/83d6b9d2-5796-11e3-86d1-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2mEMfzVlk
Thanks rene, pretty close then it seems. That undecided 15% comprise of which section of the electorate i wonder?
I remember reading something early last week which suggested the majority of the undecided were traditional Labour voters but typically I can't find any reference to it now.
Athgray you think that Vladimir Putin is broadly comparable to Alex Salmond . I thought I ll have a look on the Amnesty International site and see how they compare the two.
I found 64 reports blogs and press releases about Putin/Russia and 13 about Salmond/Scotland. Many of the articles about Salmond/Scotland were broadly favourable to Salmond and Scotland 1 critical one was about rendition flights which the UK government had ordered and which the Scottish Government were not informed of.
Then there's Putin, Amnesty is concerned about repressive anti gay legislation, persecution of critics of the government, Pussy Riot jailed for miming to lyrics critical of Putin.The disappearance of one of the group from the prison in which she had been held . The Foreign Agents Law which designates any ngo receiving foreign funding or engaging in'political activity' as foreign agents.Hundreds of these organisations have been raided this year. .
I wonder if the people sitting in Russian prisons would agree that Mr Putin and Mr Salmond are similar
EDIT I forgot about the greenpeace activists currently in custody in Russia
Yeh, but Putin looks cool with a gun. Which levels it out.
Yep wouldnt have posted my last in Russia.Fairly confident Wee Eck wont shoot me, though the image of him moonfaced,shirtless and carrying a rifle is ...unattractive 😀
Yes on character traits, no on policy. Both are egotistical and arrogant and and totalitarian leaders. See Jim Sillars assessment. Salmond is a far shrewder and astute operator who as long as he has not yet achieved his ultimate goal will tip toe within the democratic system that exists and we are lucky enough to enjoy. Putin has been able to operate like a bull in a china shop due to the fact modern democracy is in it's infancy in Russia. I imagine the average Russian voter is fairly happy with Putin's style. Similar to the fawning over Salmond seen here.
I will ask one question on this. Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has? He may not order it directly, however I can see rent a mob tactics being condoned on Scotland's streets to shout down those not subscribibg to his vision. If you think otherwise I will happily disagree.
I hope I am wrong about this. Believe me I would not take great comfort in being proved correct. I am also not beyond eating a huge slice of humble pie. We will have to wait and see.
Yes I do.
athgray - Member
...I will ask one question on this. Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has? He may not order it directly, however I can see rent a mob tactics being condoned on Scotland's streets to shout down those not subscribibg to his vision. If you think otherwise I will happily disagree...
Still playing the man, not the ball.
Salmond is the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland.
Seeing as you have such a distaste for unelected dictators, may I suggest you direct your energies to getting rid of the House of Lords which is full of the unelected and wields far more power than Salmond could ever dream of.
Do try to understand that a lot of the support the SNP enjoys is because so many people of varying political leanings are supporting it for one issue, independence.
The referendum is about that, not the SNP.
Just glad not to feel dissaffected and akso feel the ties in most ways to a larger group of people. Britain, EU, and Scotland may not be perfect but things are not that bad. I used to be a Scottish nationalist in my younger days but have come full circle. Nationalism is as much about accentuating the differences between people not always in a positive manner. I agree about the House of Lords. I would like to see it abolished, UK government moved to say Manchester and a system of PR brought in similar to Holyrood. Would go a long way to reducing nationalism all round IMO. I may use emotive language and often portray the darker sides present in Scotland, however I have at times been able to point to some of the more positive aspects of both Scotland AND the UK mainly from a social point of view. Rarely see good grace displayed toward the UK by nationalists. We can learn a lot from each other. I don't think this will happen in an independent Scotland.
Do try to understand that a lot of the support the SNP enjoys is because so many people of varying political leanings are supporting it for one issue, independence
Hmm, I think much SNP support has come from dissatisfaction with UK politics. The SNP has always been pro independence and only did sufficiently well this tine around with three losers on the UK ballot paper.
Not sure why you are referring to a UK ballot paper molgrips.The last UK election was disappointing for me in many ways only one of which was the performance of the SNP as the main pro independence party. The SNP were elected in a Scottish Parliament election. The result was overwhelming. Jackie Baillie described it as labours worst result since 1983, this despite an electoral system designed to prevent the SNP from ever achieving an overall majority,according to former Labour first minister Jack Mcconnell.
What I meant was that the SNP benefited from dissatisfaction with the main UK parties rather than pro-independence sentiment as alleged in the post. It also seems to be the prevailing sentiment on all these threads.
Geez, the whole white paper is a wish list / theoretical political manifesto.
[quote=athgray ]Salmond is a far shrewder and astute operator who as long as he has not yet achieved his ultimate goal will tip toe within the democratic system that exists and we are lucky enough to enjoy.
It really does not help your argument when you say this.You can say you despise him etc but to suggest he has a secret plan to gain Putin like powers tin foil hat territory
I will ask one question on this. Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has?
Yes it will
No mobs will be involved. Again this is tin foil hat territory
winston_dog - MemberNorthwind - That statement just highlights your ignorance about how a strategic nuclear deterrent works. Suggest you read up a bit.
Oh dear. Who are we deterring today? In what Tom Clancy fantasy is a UK semi-independent nuclear deterrent going to be of any use to us? it's dubious whether polaris ever achieved a damn thing in the sorry tale of USA vs USSR mutually assured destruction, Trident certainly didn't, and so this is the pointless replacement for the pointless replacement for the probably pointless original.
This thread does seem to bring out the headbangers. The year 2020 is going to be interesting, when Dark Lord Salmond has us all speaking gaelic and burning Shakespeare, our kids are studying Oor Wullie at school, dissent is crushed under a steel ghillie brogue, and France (or somebody, who the **** knows) fires nukes at us the day Trident leaves Faslane.
It's all going to be OK "Northwind".
We will save even more money and just disband the entire armed forces - (Scottish.Armed.Forces.Equivalent). Guns don't hurt people - people do. So lets just be nice to everyone and we'll be OK.
How much does the Scottish Government have in the piggy bank?
If we are going to follow the "Scandinavian" model we should be starting saving now and not after the referendum.
i reckon most of the rockets well see in the sky if trident leaves faslane will be bought around Nov 5th
Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has?
Yes. I think you might be confusing Alex Salmond with Voldemort.
