[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

metalheart - Member

Oh super, the coalition in the UK has worked soooo well. I'm sure it'll be just as great here too....

We've had 3 minority scottish governments already, it was such a disaster that... oh. You didn't notice.

[quote=Northwind ]
We've had 3 [b]coalition and/or[/b] minority scottish governments already, it was such a disaster that... oh. You didn't notice.
FTFY

The 2007 election was riddled with problems.
1 There were 2 simultaneous elections that day
2 Two different ways of filling in the ballot papers, x in the box for the scottish parliament and numerical ranking for the local elections.
3 Three voting systems were used ,FPTP,AMS,STV
4 The new elctronic counting system broke down
5 Postal votes were delayed some till too late to be counted
6 A man damaged a ballot box destroying some ballot papers at a polling station in Edinburgh
and you Athgray choose to imply that the biggest problem is that the average Scottish voter cant count to 6 🙄
edit

A well-informed and balanced piece from this weeks TV coverage...

A well-informed and balanced piece from this weeks TV coverage...

I wouldn't say balanced as there was no Scottish pro independence supporter on the panel, but the points raised were very interesting and very valid none the less.

The point about Scotland's deep seated hurt regarding the Highland clearances and whatever else happened hundreds of years ago still seems to be holding them back. Maybe that's why Braveheart, despite being a mediocre film, and the FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOM! it promotes has attained such importance to the Scottish people. 70 years ago Germany did far more terrible things to the UK and the rest of Europe but thankfully grudges seem to have put to one side and and we have moved on. Forgive and forget - why can't the Scots?

Overall it seems pretty clear that Salmond's white paper is little more than a wish list of nice to have's. There seems very little substance there at all. This practicalities of independence doesn't seem to have been thought through at all. I get the feeling that it would be a very messy divorce, with the rest of the UK holding all of the cards, apart from Oil of course which will run out some point soon anyway, and even with the best predictions possible for the North Sea fields, an independent Scotland is still forecast to be a net importer of oil by around 2016.

I don't buy this centuries of hurt bollocks, if only because it requires people to have more historical knowledge than they actually do.

70 years ago Germany did far more terrible things to the UK

What's the running score then?

..Forfar 4

rebel12 - Member
The point about Scotland's deep seated hurt regarding the Highland clearances and whatever else happened hundreds of years ago still seems to be holding them back. Maybe that's why Braveheart, despite being a mediocre film, and the FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOM! it promotes has attained such importance to the Scottish people. 70 years ago Germany did far more terrible things to the UK and the rest of Europe but thankfully grudges seem to have put to one side and and we have moved on. Forgive and forget - why can't the Scots?

It's not a case of forgive and forget. If you look at the history of the Highlands there's been a lot of unpleasantness imposed on us by our governments and large landowners, and we all rub along together ok today. It's a case of making sure it doesn't happen again.

The important lesson from the past is that if you are not in control of your government, terrible things can happen. The less significant you are to your government, the greater the chances of that happening especially if you are in a reviled group. A democratic government while not perfect is the best solution available.

konabunny - Member
I don't buy this centuries of hurt bollocks, if only because it requires people to have more historical knowledge than they actually do.

I don't know how it is for the current generation, but my grandparents made sure we knew what happened to their families in the Clearances, which in turn I have passed on to my children. It's not the hurt that's been passed on, it's the message to make sure that sort of thing never happens again.

Forgive me, but weren't the clearances orchestrated in the main by the big Scottish landowners - the clan lairds and such? They were clearing their own extended family members from the land which is pretty reprehensible. It wasn't an Anglo Scottish thing as such.

The Highland Clearances were a terrible thing. Genocide by any other name. They should not be forgotten and I believe Highland tourists should be educated as to why the Highlands are the wilderness they are today.

However, the blame cannot be put only down to the English. This was more a sectarian thing, with the Protestant landowners, English and Scottish, kicking the Catholic Highlanders off the land. This was just after the Jacobite uprising, which was put down by a combined Scottish and English army.

It's a case of making sure it doesn't happen again.

Not very likely now is it?

winston_dog - Member
...However, the blame cannot be put only down to the English...

I don't blame the English. It was English outrage that helped stop the Clearances.

winston_dog - Member
"It's a case of making sure it doesn't happen again."
Not very likely now is it?

I think the remains of the Scottish fishing industry may disagree. I suspect a few may being hoping for a Spanish veto.

Winston_dog is correct in saying that the Highland Clearances were not an English v Scottish thing more an attempt by government and compliant lairds or aristocracy to exterminate the opposition. However I do think land ownership, security of tenure and access is a major issue not just in the Highlands but all of Scotland away from the urban centres.
Google Dr Jim Hunter or The Poor had no Lawyers.

@gordimhor _ The Poor had no Lawyers looks very interesting.
I agree that security of tenure and access is important.
Not sure that an Independent Scotland will make a difference though?
Scotland has excellent access laws, way better than the rest of the UK.

"its a chance for Scotland to take control of it's own destiny rather than being an afterthought at Westminster."

yet even during the period of the clearances Scotland had 45 MP's in Westminster whilst the engine room of the UK and empire [b]The County Palatine of Lancashire[/b] had 2, who is the afterthought in a historical context?

The County Palatine has had many of the same issues as Scotland in terms of large landowners, lack of political representation, forceful suppression of the people, and the absence of government investment propping up the economy in the 20th century

anyway in a spirit of " if you can't beat them join them" as we have found the largest deposits of shale gas yet found we should go for devolution/ independence for the County Palatine ASAP

Good luck with that big n daft

"its a chance for Scotland to take control of it's own destiny rather than being an afterthought at Westminster."

Was watching an interesting debate about Scottish Independence on the box and it appears that Scottish women voters are far less inclined to vote for it than Scottish male voters. They are looking more into the fine detail and realising that they aren't getting the answers that they want. Could this be a male testosterone fuelled campaign that is about to fall apart as people start asking more questions.

Inbred456 - Member
Was watching an interesting debate about Scottish Independence on the box and it appears that Scottish women voters are far less inclined to vote for it than Scottish male voters. They are looking more into the fine detail and realising that they aren't getting the answers that they want. Could this be a male testosterone fuelled campaign that is about to fall apart as people start asking more questions.

POSTED 9 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

And this is based on what? A hunch? Figures?.

"its a chance for Scotland to take control of it's own destiny rather than being an afterthought at Westminster."

How is that going to work?

It works like this, John. Right now we are governed by a bunch of politicians that we didn't vote for. Quite simple, really.

I think that in general men are more likely to be idealistic and women pragmatic.. Did I read that somewhere?

And this is based on what? A hunch? Figures?.

Some might say this response was a bit aggressive, testosterone driven you might say. 😛

8)

Came to the party late on rather debate, apologies. What I fail to understand in many of the voices in favour of independence here is the rationale that Scotland will get a more representative government as a result of independence, most particularly in the way in which you say you will no longer have a government for whom you didn't vote.

It's worth pointing out that the average number of people in a constituency in Scotland is less than in rUK, so effectively the Scots are over-represented at Westminster. Therefore the question of not getting the government for whom you voted is a question of being in the minority,which wouldn't be the case under independence...unless you're in the minority! This becomes a question that can be continued until government ceases to exist and we end up with individuals.

As for whether Salmond's sums add up...happy to return to that one. Few of them do, in my view, as other have said it's more of a wish list. It would be good, however, if that came under scrutiny, rather than a spurious argument on lack of representation. Bad representation, perhaps, but that's a general problem of the current political classes

A reporter in Scotland asked for the views of a cross section of women in Scotland what they thought about devolution / independence what ever you want to call it. The majority wanted more information before they made up their minds. This wasn't an official mori poll. It was just another interesting view to add to the debate. Tad touchy old chap. Strike a nerve did I ? 🙂

As for whether Salmond's sums add up...happy to return to that one. Few of them do, in my view, as other have said it's more of a wish list.

He's a bit stuck on that point, though - the No camp have all the data, anything he says will always be estimates / best guesses.

Well, that's not quite true. Take, for instance, the estimates of UKCS revenues: nobody has quite the same bullishness on recoverable reserves and he has yet to back them up. Multiply these by some curiously optimistic price forecasts and you get the revenue that he touts and shouts about. Problem is that tax revenues are net of costs, which are rising dramatically and will go even further as the region matures further. Therefore I'd argue that these are not best guesses at all; they are as politically driven as most of the horrendous ones emanating from the No camp. That lot are doom- mongering, trying to frighten Scots to vote no. Wee Eck is doing the opposite, hence why an examination of the numbers are so crucial

Just hope they go for it, and be the end of hate the English crap
But after seeing Question time I don't think they'll go in, as they
have released they will not have the same deal as England if we was to enter.

On the other hand if it goes tits up as to speak what is the cost to the ENGLISH TAX PAYER
and finical suffering/burden we got to go through !

Right now we are governed by a bunch of politicians that we didn't vote for

Me too. In fact so do most people in the UK. Fairly common in a democracy. Secession isn't the answer though.

You are quite likely to have q government you didn't vote for in an independent Scotland for the same reasons.

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

Could this be a male testosterone fuelled campaign

Let's ask Nicola Sturgeon. (she is quite scary though, let's not rule out the possibility she's been injecting testosterone into her eyeballs before debates)

molgrips - Member

You are quite likely to have q government you didn't vote for in an independent Scotland for the same reasons.

The man did not say "I", he said "We". Don't be obtuse. An independent Scotland will get the government it votes for 100% of the time.

Northwind - Member
Nobeerinthefridge - Member
Could this be a male testosterone fuelled campaign

Let's ask Nicola Sturgeon. (she is quite scary though, let's not rule out the possibility she's been injecting testosterone into her eyeballs before debates)

molgrips - Member
You are quite likely to have q government you didn't vote for in an independent Scotland for the same reasons.

The man did not say "I", he said "We". Don't be obtuse. An independent Scotland will get the government it votes for 100% of the time.

POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Oi! Andy! I never said that!.

Oops, sorry chief, it was Inbred 456! Too late to edit!

gordimhor - Member
Rebel 12 you'll find there is sn economic case for independence achieved by not paying for trident,

Yup, that's a whole £20 per person that you'll be saving each year. 🙄

Well that would be an average 94.5 Million saving per annum

Grantway wanting to be independent has nothing to do with hating England.

Trident replacement- government estimate says 25 billion pounds. (others claim up to 34 billion pounds). That's a lot of oil money 😉

Current Trident costs according to the government are between 2 and 2.4 billion per annum. Though I don't know if that's complete costs, ie whether it includes decommissioning, base security, or even base staffing and support, maybe that's just in the default naval budget... How about pensions, training... all that jive.

Lifetime cost of Trident is estimated at £100bn+.

That's a lot of schools and hospitals.

Daffy the cost of the subs alone is over 25 billion , that doesn't include maintenance. The missiles cost 17 million each and the cost of maintaining the missiles is predicted to be between 35-37 million for the year 2015-2016. On even the most approximate per capita basis that comes to more than 20 quid

I think it's stupid for Salmond to have promised to make an independent Scotland free of weapons of mass destruction.

I mean, think of how many schools you could buy with the mine you'd make selling a couple of nuke subs to Iran.

TBF the importance of the trident saving isn't really about pounds in each person's pocket. It's about not pissing away billions of quid on something we don't need and will never use, while cutting services we will. Consider it a matter of fiscal intent and responsibility. £1 is too much.

Financial benefits or losses can be debated one way or another. Would I be better or worse off in the pocket in an independent Scotland. I really don't know and I doubt anyone else truly knows. I feel there is more to the union than counting pound signs at Carter Bar. If we have been financially supporting the UK then so be it. Shame many feel the benefit of North Sea oil should be for the few and not the many. What is next, bickering that the Central Belt should not be benefiting from Aberdeen's oil.

If Scotland was then better off financially, and I imagine our largest trading partner was worse off, would this not be bad for Scottish jobs, then bringing back a state of equilibrium?

I suppose we could rely on the multinationals with the carrot of lower tax rates. We seem to loathe these tax avoiding corporations but wish to lure them here anyway. Judas Salmond would sell his mother if it guaranteed a yes vote.

I think more of the fact my children are due to start school in the coming years, I feel they could miss out by receiving a Scotlandcentric education. I can imagine Shakespeare, Coleridge and Larkin dropping out of education for just Scottish based literature and poetry. Would World history be taught through a Scottish perspective?

athgray - Member

I feel they could miss out by receiving a Scotlandcentric education. I can imagine Shakespeare, Coleridge and Larkin dropping out of education for just Scottish based literature and poetry.

Northwind - Member
TBF the importance of the trident saving isn't really about pounds in each person's pocket. It's about not pissing away billions of quid on something we don't need and will never use

You could apply the same logic to entirety of the armed forces, but I'd like to know how foolproof your crystal ball is.

RE Trident, a large part of the design cost (88%) is fronted by the Americans with a substantial portion of the remainder coming from Astute. The cost of the subs will be spread over 25 years needed to design and build them (so £1bn per year) the operating costs are ~1% of the NHS per year. £1bn/65m people = <£20 pp/py. I know this is simplistic, but hey.

I think that's a small price to pay for the influence it gives us and the skills it maintains within the UK.

Grantway wanting to be independent has nothing to do with hating England.

Unfortunately, the small but vocal minority of idiots that like to blame the English for all their woes are likely to remain. It'll either be a case of the nasty English fixing the results with a barrage of irresistible propaganda, or Scotland being shafted upon independence with a rough UK exit or EU entry deal*.

Not that I can figure out how that's the fault of an office administrator working in the small village of Methwold, Norfolk. But it'll be their fault nonetheless. This is the problem with idiots, it doesn't need to make sense. You just need any old tenuous to make believe link in order to blame someone. Even if the fault clearly lies with someone completely different.

*i can however see Scotland's negotiations on EU entry being nowhere near as rosy as the Yes campaign would have us believe. I'm very much seeing an EU 'this is what we're offering, and that's all your getting' being more likely than any genuine negotiation.

They were when I when I was at school Northwind. The Scottish education system has only had the weight of SNP government bearing upon it for a few years, give it time. A friend of mine is a teacher in Argyle and Bute (the constituency of SNP education minister no less), and he says that this is what is happening.

Arts project funding will be driven by the level of Scottishness. will English be taught as a second language with far greater time given over to Scots or Gaelic? History and Modern Studies will head the same way.

I can imagine this would be popular in an independent Scotland. "What nae Shakespeare? Gid, aah shouldnae be learnin that English s***e!

I know we are being told that a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP, however this indoctrination of our kids and other parties on the back foot will see our dear leader cementing control. I was ridiculed for suggesting a more Russian style of leadership then came across this from Jim Sillars. I posted before but will do so again

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9533614/Jim-Sillars-SNP-a-totalitarian-and-intellectually-dumb-party.html ]SNP totalitarian says former deputy leader[/url]

Salmond may be cleverer and more astute that to ban the Conservatives outright, but I can imagine aggresive and dubious tactics will be used to all but eradicate them. I am sure if this happens the same people that clamour for greater democracy for a downtrodden nation will not bat an eye. In fact to quote the late, great Ollie Reed "they will love him for it"

I wait for a statue of our first Prime Minister. Could be constructed with resmelted Trident submarines and straddle the Clyde. There is a statue of a politician in Buchanan Street. Our Dear Leader is not fit to lace Donald Dewars boots.