epicyclo - Member
After being sceptical about IRA support within the independence movement, what do I see today, but several mentions of Connolly's execution on 12 May 1916 on various independence threads on FB.Why does Scotland's independence have to be polluted on both sides by Irish grudges? It is bugger all to do with them, and all to do with our democracy.
Since you know Scottish history so well, you should probably know why. People feel it is, correctly, part of their identity.
It's a bit like you going on about the clearances, people have a connection to their own generational pasts..
Scotland never has been an "independent" country and it never will be, it's people will always have connections to the outside, both present and historical.
We should embrace that.
, as Ruth Davidson says Sturgeon wakes up every morning thinking of how Scotland can be an Independent country.
Ill bet Ruth thinks about her tory colleagues in westminster & does the same 😉
Scotland never an independent country? really?
you're missing my point.tjagain - Member
Scotland never an independent country? really?
Another point on the history(you're unlikey to hear about )what did james connolly have to do with scotland, well he was born in edinburgh, but he also wasn't the only connection, there were strong links to scotland. Peoples lives and history don't just exist within political boundaries.
Apparently they used to use cathkin braes for training purposes. I'd also imagine alot of the activity would have been fund raising and logistics and activity would have been uk wide.
The IRA in Scotland had 2,500 Volunteers that were organised into 5 battalion areas. These are listed below. A full membership roll exists in a private collection. The Scottish Brigade of the Old IRA was formed in 1934 and continued into the 1960s. In 1960 it erected a Celtic Cross in memory of the Scottish Brigade in St. Fintan's Cemetery, Sutton, County Dublin.
FIRST BATTALION
A Company, Maryhill,Glasgow. Drilled in Banba Hall, Maryhill Road.
B Coy, Bridgeton, Glasgow. Drill Hall, Castle Street. Known as the 'Sandhurst' or 'West Point' of the IRA in Scotland.
C Coy, Govan and Kinning Park, 1918-1923. Drilled in Boilermakers Hall, later hall in Queen Street, Govan.
D Coy, 1918-1922. Baillieston, Shettleston, Tollcross and Parkhead.
E Coy 1918-1923. Uddingston, and Mossend.
F Coy. 1918-1923. Clydebank, Dalmuir, Paisley, Duntocher, Barrhead.
G Coy. 1918-1923. Glasgow Central. Paraded in hall in Renfield Street, and Terence MacSiney Hall, Anderston.
H Coy. 1918-1923. Cambuslang, Wellshot, Carmyle and Rutherglen.
I Coy. 1918-1923. Renton, Alexandria, Cardross and Kirkintilloch.
SECOND BATTALION
A Coy. 1919-1923. Motherwell and Craigneuk.
B Coy. 1919-1923. Wishaw and Newmains.
C Coy. 1919-1923. Blantyre and Bothwell.
D Coy. 1919-1922 Coatbridge, Airdrie, Whifflet and Calderbank,
E Coy. 1919-1922. Hamilton, Larkhall, Burnbank and Cadzow.
F Coy. 1920-1922. Bellshill, Mosssend, Holytown, New Stevenston.
G Coy. Cadzow.
H Coy. 1919-1923. Cleland and Carfin.
THIRD BATTTALION
A Coy. 1919-1923. City of Edinburgh, Leith and Portobello.
B Coy. 1919-1922. Broxburn, Philipstown, Winchburgh, Bathgate, Blackburn, Niddrie, Shotts, Uphall, Linlithgow.
C Coy. 1919-1922. Mid and West Calder, Soneyburn and Addiewell.
D Coy. 1919-1923. Falkirk.
E Coy. 1919-1923. Bannockburn, Denny, Bonnybridge, Cowie, Stirlingshire.
FOURTH BATTALION
D Coy. Dundee and district.
Coy (not alotted). Buckhaven, Methilhill, Lochgelly, Cowdenbeath, Lochore, Kinross-shire.
FIFTH BATTALION
B Company. 1920-1923. Greenock, Gourock and Port Glasgow. Paraded in St Mary's Hall and Duncan Street Hall
So aye history exists, no point in denying it*, or thinking your own vision of it is supreme.
*that doesn't mean cheer lead it and continue the propaganda, but we should absolutely try to understand and accept it(peoples experiences will vary, history is very much relative to the ones perception).
seosamh77
Expain it then. I am sure from the little history I know that there were several periods when Scotland was a truely independent and unified country.
There always been cross border relationships. Put it this way should you give up you English heritage and adhere to a scottish only viewpoint? I put the term in inverted commas to emphasise that i didn't mean political boundaries. Diversity isn't just a modern concept.
So by that standard England has never been an independent country either?
So sturgeons speech in Holyrood today shows that she has not shelved the prospect of another independence referendum but the timetable remains the same - one when the brexit terms are known. So much for the newspaper bollox. Only change is she is delaying bringing forward the motion in holyrood to concentrate on making the case for Scotland to remain in the single market and challenging the unionist parties all of whom support this ( unless Davidson has changed her mind) to fight for Scotland to remain in the single market. Not bad politics as she has taken away some of the unionst parties targets.
whoooshh.tjagain - Member
So by that standard England has never been an independent country either?
So that's what the borris bounce means
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bombshell-scottish-independence-poll-reveals-18829998
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bombshell-scottish-independence-poll-reveals-18829998/blockquote >There are a few kicking about no doubt, but that must be the most unflattering photo of Nicola Sturgeon they could get their hands on!
I'd rather see polling at least 60% for independence, though I don't know if any 16-17 year old or foreign nationals were included in that polling, both groups tending to support the Yes option.
Neither should we ignore the capability of the Scottish people to shoot themselves in the foot.
Again.
not really a bombshell is it. Nothing to do with Boris though.
From a poll of 1000 people. Not representative at all.
You do realise how polls work?
From a poll of 1000 people. Not representative at all.
Face. Palm.
I agree Colin, needs to be nearer 60%.
I agree, we should have some sort of poll where we just ask everyone.
And as far as I can tell this poll didn't include 16 and 17 year olds or EU nationals.
52/48 - doesn’t that put it in ‘will of the people’ territory then...
😂
I’d rather see polling at least 60%...
I'd vote Yes again, but I think the last 3 years have proved that's a good principle for any referendum that will result in a major change that is going to be difficult to reverse. It's daft to be making such important decisions on simple majorities.
Yes again here too. Brexit, Boris, his predecessors, the last three years are strengthening the case for Indy.
'Don't waste this time', which is exactly what they did.
The bit that's missing for me in all this is the HOW. How would we suddenly become part of the EU after we voted for independence, as I understand it all the other 27 states need to agree on a vote and it takes quite a long time (years, 10 years i saw once?). I'm all for it BUT i'm a details person so would be interested in the detail of the actual implementation of independence. How will currency transfer work and transfer pricing for companies like mine ? I know politicians are working only on the emotional feeling parts to gain support but as we are seeing now the detail is QUITE important.
We got mired in HOW the last time, and then the Brexit campaign completely ignored any experts that questioned 'the how' during that complete shitstorm.
SNP published a whitepaper that detailed the how, and rightly some of it was dissected. Again, no such thing was published for the shitstorm.
There is no question that economically Scotland can be an independant country - and that's quoting Osbourne and Cameron btw, and I'm pretty sure we'd get access to the single market even if it does take time.
I really don't give a flying **** about details now, we're not North Korea ffs, we'll be fine, even if it costs in the short term I believe we'd be better off in the long term. Being controlled by a bunch of millionaires 300 miles away isn't really working any more.
I think Brexit has a lot of lessons for Sexit.
The "it'll be alright" thing doesn't wash. NZCol is right - we need some details and agreements, both on how it'd work with the rest of the UK and Europe. While there is negotiation and posture there, I think a second confirmatory referendum before fully committing is a good thing.
We also need to be aware that there will be costs, and a (hopefully) a certain time to recoup them and get to where we want to be as a country.
And some people can't afford to take that hit - how do we make sure they don't go below the poverty line etc?
And some people can’t afford to take that hit – how do we make sure they don’t go below the poverty line etc?
The same people who can't afford to take a hit on Brexit, and I'm sure some of them voted for it. If there's one thing the Scottish government is fairly decent at, it's supporting those in that position, to be fair.
I really don’t give a flying **** about details now, we’re not North Korea ffs, we’ll be fine, even if it costs in the short term I believe we’d be better off in the long term. Being controlled by a bunch of millionaires 300 miles away isn’t really working any more.
We'll be fine. That's not quite enough for me with 400 employees with mortgages, savings, pensions and families. I admire your bullishness and no we are not North Korea but if we're going to vote for a fundamental, irreversible change predicated on unfounded promises then I'd like a bit of detail. This, in my opinion, is why Brexit is a shambles as frankly nobody knew what they were actually voting for other than 'change'.
The grass is always greener, ,mainly due to it being irrigated with Bulls....
You're in a different position from me, I understand your concerns and won't argue or disagree, I'm merely pointing out my view on it.
It's uncertainty and chaos either way but in one scenario, it's presided over by obviously flawed but fairly sensible politicians (of all parties )at Holyrood or , seemingly, unhinged maniacs ( of the two main parties) at Westminster.
I know which of these two choices i'd make.
NZ col - there is plenty of detail out there the problem is a lot of it has to be surmise. for example how hardball England behaves leads to different issues.
But check SNP site for detailed proposals. A lot of work done on currency and finances for example
Good discussion regarding Scottish independence on LBC James O’Brien at the moment
Yeah I've read it all TJ, it's not actually been independently verified as possible though. My Tax guys have a long list of questions they submitted which remain unanswered as by the admission, they can't be right now. The fundamental question of HOW scotland would become an independent country IN the EU is absent though. And that's sort of the Keystone to the whole thing.
It’s uncertainty and chaos either way but in one scenario, it’s presided over by obviously flawed but fairly sensible politicians (of all parties )at Holyrood or , seemingly, unhinged maniacs ( of the two main parties) at Westminster.
It does cause quite a few envious glances north, from south of the border, that you at least have the potential an ejector seat from the complete madhouse that this country has become.
If I was Scottish the voting out would have been a no brainer las time around. After the insanity of the last few years...
Then I read and yesterdays interview with Nichola Sturgeon in yesterdays Guardian advising less unhinged English people to move to Scotland, and thinking... 'Hmmmmm.... tandoori munchie boxes....'
I was no before. I'd be yes now if the snp had some firm guarantees on what the future would look like, and those guarantees made independence viable.
But check SNP site for detailed proposals. A lot of work done on currency and finances for example
They need far more than a proposal. There's no point in complaining about people voting for brexit based on 'pie in the sky' thinking, then going down the same route for scottish independence. Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.
Find it astonishing that the same folks who complain about the lack of a plan for brexit appear to be prepared to wing it with independence...the hypocrisy is astounding.
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.
legally impossible. the EU cannot negotiate with a part of a member country. No competence. However its as clear as it can be that scotland would be welcomed back / to continue
‘Hmmmmm…. tandoori munchie boxes….’
They're a Scottish Government initiative to reduce NHS costs by having you die at fifty of heart disease.
Clever, right?
I was a no before, I'd be a yes now as we are clearly two very different countries who want to go in different directions, why should one hold the other back?
Edit- Sorry Wales, you voted to leave and NI can come with us 🙂
if the snp had some firm guarantees on what the future would look like, and those guarantees made independence viable.
There's no guarantee that the SNP would be in power post-Indy, but then that's the beauty of a democracy.
There’s no guarantee that the SNP would be in power post-Indy, but then that’s the beauty of a democracy.
This pickles the heads of my unionist SNP hating colleagues. The only way to get rid of the SNP is to vote yes. 🙂
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.
I understand and sympathise with this conundrum. The EU cannot take a stance while Scotland is in the UK. However, acceptance would be simpler if we didn't leave as part of the UK. There has been talk of a constitutional "holding area" for Scotland while we're out but not quite out, but who knows?
owever its as clear as it can be that scotland would be welcomed back / to continue
But what's the process for 'being accepted back' as I understand it it's convoluted and requires ALL the other EU states to vote for it. Which then brings Catalonia careering out of Spain so Spain would likely say no etc etc. Therein lies the conundrum. Call me a control freak but when i step off a ledge i like to know whats below me.
Spain have said theyve got no problem with it
Catalonia indie & scotland indie are different in many ways, ie, Spain isnt pulling the catalans out of the EU against their wishes
Catalonia / spain is no longer an issue. Actual process depends on where we are when the vote happens - a it must do
tjagain
Member
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.legally impossible. the EU cannot negotiate with a part of a member country.
That becomes much easier after brexit.
Which to be honest, could well be the defining factor in how this goes. If brexit happens, you'd imagine IS campaigning goes into overdrive.
If it doesn't, you'd imagine not alot will happen all that quickly, cause the premise of the SNP's stance on material change dissappears.
Ultimately, we just need to wait until this october deadline passes as Boris has seemingly set that up as a do or die moment.
You'd imagine if that deadline passes and no brexit then surely, brexit must be dead.
I was also no before but now I'm sitting on the fence. The main thing holding me back from being fully pro-independent is the likelihood of a future Labour administration. Every UK Labour Government since WW2 has put the country in recession as they are inept with the country's finances. We're then left with harsh Tory policies to get the country back out of recession (which possibly has something to do with why they are generally hated by so many).
On a UK level, a recession is hard enough to cope with, but with a smaller Scottish economy, the ability to pull out of a recession will be even more difficult and painful.
