chewkw - Member
Again I ask you this question what if West Minister refuses Scotland another referendum what can you do about it?...
Plenty. I can guarantee something will be done about it.
fair do's. i just don't really see the point in bringing it up, as you say it would need to be almost unanimous(see eritrea/slovenia), never going to happen.piemonster - Member
Fairly extreme yes, I'd have to imagine more or less unanimous support and a long campaign of mass protests.Its not really a viewpoint of mine to be clear.
"Plenty. I can guarantee something will be done about it."
What if a Referendum were granted, but requiring a substantial super majority to avoid the nightmare of a major change occuring because of a statistically insignificant majority?
just curious, what do you suggest? and when?epicyclo - Member
Plenty. I can guarantee something will be done about it.
outofbreath - Member
What if a Referendum were granted, but requiring a substantial super majority to avoid the nightmare of a major change occuring because of a statistically insignificant majority?
They pulled that stunt the first time. 52% voted for devolution in 1979 and we didn't get it at that time, so we willna be fooled again.
outofbreath - Member
"Plenty. I can guarantee something will be done about it."What if a Referendum were granted, but requiring a substantial super majority to avoid the nightmare of a major change occuring because of a statistically insignificant majority?
Personally i agree with the super majority, but the easy argument to that is why should scotland be held to a different standard than that of common uk democratic practice?
Sorry to say, but the concept of a super majority seems lost in this day and age. it's majority rule, come what may...
epicyclo - Member
They pulled that stunt the first time.
it's not actually a stunt but something that should be standard for this type of qustion. horse has well and truly bolted though.
duplicate..
epicyclo - Member
chewkw - Member
Again I ask you this question what if West Minister refuses Scotland another referendum what can you do about it?...
Plenty. I can guarantee something will be done about it.
You cannot do anything about it simple as that because the timing is not on your side.
fair do's. i just don't really see the point in bringing it up, as you say it would need to be almost unanimous(see eritrea/slovenia), never going to happen.
I was going to post something more erudite to give you a glimpse of my intellectual prowess. But I needed a poo and decided I didn't have the time.
job done, I'd to google erudite! 😆
So anyhow, SNP options(in no particular order):
- Suck it up, accept defeat. - unlikely.
- Call an election and campaign on a referdum pre-brexit.(that's if they are serious about the timeline) - most dangerous
- Sit on it, play up that they are actually serious about calling a referendum in the stated timeline. Then gratiously accept a post brexit ref. Which will need to be in this parliament defo before 2021 scottish election, and probably before the 2020 election so they can hold this government to it, as future government will be able to ignore it. - most likely, imo.
Am I missing any options?
seosamh77 - Member
Am I missing any options?
Yes, blame Edward Longshanks the hammer of the Scots.
The rest of the excuses are just lame ...
I'm hedging my bets on "sit on it"
seosamh77
Idle musings
Make a legal case against the withholding of permission and fight thru the courts ( dunno how watertight the law is)
Hold a referendum without westminster permission and hope no one organises a significant boycott then UDI given a large enough mandate
Hold an election to holyrood on a the single issue, get a pro independence majority and declare UDI
Campaign of civil disobedience
General strike
None particularly likely
We live in a parliamentary democracy. How can the UK call itself democratic if it ignores it's parliaments?
The Scottish parliament does not have responsibility for The union between Scotland and England, it's that simple
theyre little more than a glorified parish council
ninfan - MWe live in a parliamentary democracy. How can the UK call itself democratic if it ignores it's parliaments?
The Scottish parliament does not have responsibility for The union between Scotland and England, it's that simpleember
I think you'll find the convention for that is clearly changing, before your very eyes. suck it up.
theyre little more than a glorified parish council
We know that's what you'd like it to be. Genie is out the bottle though, and it's not going back..
tjagain - Member
Make a legal case against the withholding of permission and fight thru the courts ( dunno how watertight the law is)
No case there ...
Ya, you can have million of times on that nobody cares coz it's not official etc ...Hold a referendum without westminster permission and hope no one organises a significant boycott then UDI given a large enough mandate
Nobody cares coz its meaningless ...Hold an election to holyrood on a the single issue, get a pro independence majority and declare UDI
Ya, but the next morning you still need to clear and clean up your own mess at your own home(Scotland). Imagine a bunch of Scots protesting in London ... that will look silly innit.Campaign of civil disobedience
Ya strike at will in Scotland ... 😆General strike
chewkw - Member
seosamh77 - Member
Am I missing any options?
Yes, blame Edward Longshanks the hammer of the Scots.The rest of the excuses are just lame ...
Chewkw once again demonstrates his willful ignorance...
seosamh77 - Member
Chewkw once again demonstrates his willful ignorance...
What else do you have to convince me apart from the lame excuses of joining EU bureaucratic silly system or blaming Brexit.
The very basic is blood feud no matter how you packed your reasons. 🙄
I don't have to convince you, just other people living in scotland.
The most valuable lesson all of us should take from the last referendum.
Ireland never asked for independence. They declared it the English screwed up and ended up starting a war that lasted decades.
Scotland doesn't need Westminsters approval, it might make life better though.
Handle independence questions badly and you tend to have a civil war.
aye, defo don't want to take the irish route! Don't think there are really that many parallels though, so academic at best to suggest that course of action.
mrmo - Member
Handle independence questions badly and you tend to have a civil war.
That will be a foolish thing to do but whatever makes them happy go for it after all siblings do fight from time to time. No big deal.
As for Ireland ... so long as they are happy so be it.
😛
I think you'll find the convention for that is clearly changing, before your very eyes. suck it up.
It's not a convention, it's an act of Parliament, and if you remember the Brexit hearing in court, I think we're all pretty clear about who therefore has supremacy
Why doesn't may just say "no, never," rather than, "no, not just now."?
She knows she can't.
seosamh77 - Member
Why doesn't may, just say "no, never," rather than, "no, not just now."?
She knows she can't.
She is a good PM hence she does not shut the door on Scotland.
Her reason is simple that we are in the process of Brexit hence it is the wrong time to ask for another referendum.
Put it this way if Scotland is determined to gain independence in future nobody is going to stop them if the Scots want it after all the world is changing.
It is just not the time yet because the British PM knows Scotland can hurt the Union at the wrong time, and as a British PM it is her duty to protect the Union.
It is her duty as PM simple as that.
duplicate..
🙂
We could post this in quite a few threads, this one and the EU one for sure !
Earlier you spoke of "morally" - Mrs May takes the 55% No vote and "once in a lifetime Referendum" as her moral aurhority.
Why doesn't may just say "no, never," rather than, "no, not just now."?
She knows she can't.
May said what she meant, not now as now makes no sense.
Why doesn't may just say "no, never," rather than, "no, not just now."?
Whoever suggested never?
I thought we were all agreed, that there would no doubt be another referendum on independence
In about a generation, perhaps even in a lifetime.
just you keep parroting on...
Pot kettle ? 😉
jambalaya - Member
May said what she meant, not now as now makes no sense.
tbh i agree it doesn't really make sense right now, not for the same reasons as you mind.. but she'll regret(or perhaps she won't) leaving the question open ended.
As i've said many times, you do have to admire the brits for one thing and that's their commitment to democracy, atleast at home.
chewkw - Member
Yes, blame Edward Longshanks the hammer of the Scots.
You do realise he lost, don't you?
If you can't hold it, you haven't won it.
mrmo - Member
Ireland never asked for independence. They declared it the English screwed up and ended up starting a war that lasted decades.
It just needs a Hesselrig moment, and Scotland will also be on the path taken by so many countries that had their calls for independence ignored by Westminster.
Too many people assume it's the SNP leading the movement. It's the movement pushing the SNP.
The SNP's great achievement has been to damp down the more radical elements and pursue a peaceful method. If it is seen to lose control of the process, then it's lost its influence.
That's why so many of us are watching this with horror. Will Westminster repeat the same mistake yet again? Hopefully they won't, the cost is high, and the damage forever.
Jamba - may picks and choses what she thinks of as democracy.
circumstnces have changed after the EU referendum
62% vote to stay in the EU
50+ % of the scots voters backed pro independence parties,
Majority in Holyrood 56 out of 59 mps from scotland pro independence
Now what % of the vote put the tories in power?
You have way too much confidence in scotland actually being full of nationalists willing to die for the cause. It isn't. Thankfully.epicyclo - Member
chewkw - Member
Yes, blame Edward Longshanks the hammer of the Scots.
You do realise he lost, don't you?If you can't hold it, you haven't won it.
mrmo - Member
Ireland never asked for independence. They declared it the English screwed up and ended up starting a war that lasted decades.
It just needs a Hesselrig moment, and Scotland will also be on the path taken by so many countries that had their calls for independence ignored by Westminster.Too many people assume it's the SNP leading the movement. It's the movement pushing the SNP.
The SNP's great achievement has been to damp down the more radical elements and pursue a peaceful method. If it is seen to lose control of the process, then it's lost its influenc.e.
That's why so many of us are watching this with horror. Will Westminster repeat the same mistake yet again? Hopefully they won't, the cost is high, and the damage forever.
chewkw all in a tizz about the Scott's.
On the one hand, independence would mean further weakening of the UK - Putin happy!
On the other, Scott's gaining indepenace to join EU means further support for EU - Putin sad 🙁
All too predictable chewy. What will your masters decide for you?
seosamh77 - Member
You have way too much confidence in scotland actually being full of nationalists willing to die for the cause. It isn't. Thankfully.
Hopefully.
Looking at history, many independence struggles start with a spark. It just takes one incident by one person to kick things off. Then the govt reacts and pisses off a few more which leads to more incidents, etc etc, then the die is cast.
50+ % of the scots voters backed pro independence parties,
Go on? 2015 general election SNP got 49.97% of he vote, how do you make it over 50% pro independence?
Scottish green manifesto for 2015 election wasn't pro Indy
Epic, i do look at history, look at Ireland, the struggle goes back hundreds of years, and they had much more of a greviance than the scots.
Explain the history of physical force separatism in Scotland?
That kind of thing doesn't just come out of no where. It takes a long long time and plenty failed attempts.
The conditions just don't exist. And that's before you even get into logistics of funding and arming.
It's fantasy. Honestly not worth your time.
Plus have you ever looked at and indy crowd? Hardly the best pool for guerilla fighters! 😆
Might want to check the holyrood manifesto rather than the Westminster one, ninfan.
https://greens.scot/scotland-can
In a second referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence.
epicyclo - Member
chewkw - Member
Yes, blame Edward Longshanks the hammer of the Scots.You do realise he lost, don't you?
If you can't hold it, you haven't won it.
I did not say he managed to hold it I said he hammered ... hammered ...
My reasoning is that your blood feud first started there coz the Scots were hammered by Longshanks then all the subsequent politics, struggle etc until James I (first) yet they still wanted fireworks but those were the good old days. (yes, yes Europe was involved via religion proxy etc)
Nowadays, their decedents just want a revenge that's all. A bit like the attitude of never give up etc whatever that is several hundred years later ... still fighting.
I don't think you can reinvent the cause again coz nobody is really abusing the Scots nowadays and certainly no women were ravaged by some Sheriffs ... You have been influenced by the Scottish romantic hero Mel Gibson ... 😛It just needs a Hesselrig moment, and Scotland will also be on the path taken by so many countries that had their calls for independence ignored by Westminster.
seosamh77 - Member
Explain to me the history of physical force separatism in Scotland?That kind of thing doesn't just come out of no where. It takes a long long time and plenty failed attempts.
The conditions just don't exist. And that's before you even get into logistics of funding and arming.
You're thinking in terms of someone starting a full scale insurrection right from the start. I don't think that's possible either.
I'm thinking more of one person starting an avalanche, eg Gavrilo Princip.
chewkw - Member
...Nowadays, their decedents just want a revenge that's all. A bit like the attitude of never give up etc whatever that is several hundred years later ... still fighting...
No, we just want a govt that we voted for.
It would take 300 years, if, and that's a massive 4000 point if, you could even get 20 people interested to start.
In fact i dare ye, go for it.
And you're still thinking in terms of scotland be occupied. It's not.
fourbanger - Member
chewkw all in a tizz about the Scott's.
It's just a revenge by the decedents of some of the Scottish clans that's all. Nowadays they repackage it in some sort modern political arguments but nobody is so stupid as not to see it. It's just sinister action at the moment deep down due to hatred of the past.
Ya, but weakening or not that's just pretending to show concern. Deep down it is just insincere but sinister intention to punish the past deed.On the one hand, independence would mean further weakening of the UK - Putin happy!
Nothing to do with Putin. This is sibling rivalry or blood feud nothing much ... you may involve religions whatever but deep down that's just the surface of the problem. It's historical ...On the other, Scott's gaining indepenace to join EU means further support for EU - Putin sad
What are you talking about? I AM the Master! 😈All too predictable chewy. What will your masters decide for you?
seosamh77 - Member
...In fact i dare ye, go for it...
Who? Me? No way! I'm just looking at possible scenarios.
I'll let you know if I start sharpening my claymore. 🙂
