MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
To say there was no plan is also wrong. There it is in all its glory. I would expect something similar this time
Apologies if this has been covered somewhere already, but my lad asked this question last night - given that Scottish independence seems to assume a quick and easy re-entry to the EU, which really cannot be guaranteed as quick or easy, does Sturgeons relative popularity risk swaying the vote in the way that the cult of Boris helped bolster support for Brexit?
Could populism overcome pragmatism again? Because it hasn't ended well with Brexit.
Robbie Burns Day. This is appropriate. His poem on how Scotland was sold out by our aristocracy
Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam’d in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An’ Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England’s province stands-Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro’ many warlike ages,Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor’s wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour’s station;
But English gold has been our bane –Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
O would, ere I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi’ Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I’ll mak this declaration;
We’re bought and sold for English gold-Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
It cannot be guaranteed no - but given the positive noises coming out of the EU and from some very senior and the fact there are no major difficulties its as likely as it can be without a formal guarantee.
Sturgeons popularity is certainly a bonus but to me its not a cult of personality nor is it populism because of the truthfulness.
Re-entry to the EU isn't a given. And it shouldn't be viewed as such nor something the Scots should immediately agree to. We're out of Europe now, whether we go back should be subject to debate and a decision will need to be made on it further down the line.
Tbh the EU shouldn't really be part of the discussion anymore. Circumstances have changed and a 2016 62% to remain is irrelevant.
Tbh I'm not 100% people will say aye to going back in in 3 4 or 5 years, I probably would but will need to consider circumstances. Simple fact is England is scotland's largest trading partner and whatever relationship they have with the EU in a few years time will be highly relevant to Scotland.
If re-entry to the EU is the defining factor in your support for independence. I'd suggest you should think about a bit more.
I don't think EU re-entry is a given at all, and not because the EU don't want us.
Plus an independent scotland will bring it's own questions to answer and the EU question will naturally disappear into the background noise of other issues.
Apologies if this has been covered somewhere already, but my lad asked this question last night – given that Scottish independence seems to assume a quick and easy re-entry to the EU, which really cannot be guaranteed as quick or easy, does Sturgeons relative popularity risk swaying the vote in the way that the cult of Boris helped bolster support for Brexit?
Could populism overcome pragmatism again? Because it hasn’t ended well with Brexit
The reasons for the shift in polls will have a lot more to do with Brexit and covid. Than the popularity of sturgeon I'd reckon.
Tbh the EU shouldn’t really be part of the discussion anymore. Circumstances have changed and a 2016 62% to remain is irrelevant.
Even if it's higher than that now as the polls tell us. The whole Uk figure is now similar to the Scottish result and the Scottish remain vote certainly hasn't diminished. Memebership of the EU wil be one of the key issues driving Scottish independance and to dismiss it naive.
The reasons for the shift in polls will have a lot more to do with Brexit and covid. Than the popularity of sturgeon I’d reckon.
Quite possibly, the view from down here in England is easily distorted. Certainly her handling of those two issues has been much better than the UK government, but my support for her for that - if I lived in Scotland - would not overcome my reluctance to vote for independence.
Maybe the way it's reported down here, but I'm sensing the kind of "easiest deal in history" false optimism might be a factor. Just so long as she doesn't write anything on the side if a bus! 🤣
Not particularly aimed at anyone here but I get a distinct sense of ‘we know best, you clearly don’t understand’ when I speak to die hard yes voters which isn’t the approach that wins over the undecided
This , very much this . I'm a previous no voter who is angry and Hates everything the Tories have done to the UK over the past 3 years but if brexit has shown us anything an SNP white paper on a post indy Scotland is only a starting point for post referendum negotiation . Whilst Boris and his cronies have certainly made me more inclined to vote yes brexit has shown the difficulty of ending political unions and I'd be very wary of any yes campaign promises that aren't concrete , I know it wouldn't happen but I'd like to see some sort of confirmatory vote post any negotiation .
Edukator
Free Member
Tbh the EU shouldn’t really be part of the discussion anymore. Circumstances have changed and a 2016 62% to remain is irrelevant.Even if it’s higher than that now as the polls tell us. The whole Uk figure is now similar to the Scottish result and the Scottish remain vote certainly hasn’t diminished. Memebership of the EU wil be one of the key issues driving Scottish independance and to dismiss it naive.
Maybe, the whole brexit shambles is no doubt a major motivator in shifting polls as is brexit.
Which to be honest as brexit more becomes the norm and as the covid crisis abates, we'll see a shift back, how much, who knows...
Tbh, I don't doubt the EU part will play a big part in the campaigning, it more than likely will. But that's pre-referendum, post referendum will see a new world and a whole new set of priorities appear, most notably london - edinburgh negotiations, which will dwarf everything else, rejoining the EU will be a priority down the road and the world will look different to scots depending on the outcome of those negotiations. After that we'll see a general election or 2 before we see re-join the EU I'd reckon, possibly even a few more referendum before that too, as we'll need to decide on questions like currency etc..
I'd suggest independence will be far from a short process, never mind rejoining the EU.
People like to say there's parallels to brexit and independence nah, no really, independence is a much bigger proposition! 😆
Everyone should go into it with their eyes open.
Economic pain can precipitate rapid change, and there's a mountain of pain on the horizon:
End of furlough redundancies, continued Covid constraints due to mutations and vaccin inefficacity.
Growing debt
Inflation that is the inevitible consequence of printing money through Covid.
Brexit pain becoming more apparent, it happened a month ago, the consequences are becoming apparent and there is more pain to come as the various transition periods come to an end.
And it'll all be Westminster's fault, because let's face it, it is. There's enough for a revolution there let alone a referendum.
There’s enough for a revolution there let alone a referendum.
I could possibly get behind a revolution rather than independence 😅
More cash;I have a list of lamp post ornaments. The SFA may need to rethink their list of assigned linesmen though.
I think that if people want a concrete plan on what is going to happen post independence then it's going to be wishful thinking. It's like asking a government what it's policies will be in ten years time. They can give you their philosophies and general thoughts but they cannot give you any guarantees because World events cause changes to plans all the time.
In the case of independence you want to know exactly what currency will be used, exactly what the relationship with the EU is going to be, exactly what defense policy is going to be, what's going to happen to the nukes, what's going to happen with the fish, etc.
Almost every aspect is going to impact at least one other aspect and often all other aspects. The SNP can give you an incredibly detailed breakdown of what IS is going to look like as they did in 2014. The problem with very detailed interrelated plans is that it only takes one or two things to go wrong and the plan starts to fall apart.
The SNP is going to publish a detailed plan which will be torn to shreds as the last one was. It was torn to shreds because it relied on the UK government and the EU agreeing to things and all they had to say was, 'No, we won't agree to that.' in the case of the UK government and 'We aren't going to answer that.' in the case of the EU and the plan was a mess.
Maybe it will be better this time if the plan is based on rUK not agreeing to anything and if the EU decides to provide some clarifications.
My point is that if you want a 23 point plan for life after independence in order to vote Yes then you're going to be disappointed. I would say it's more a question of general principles and philosophies.
Saying that, we should talk details (just try to ignore the trolls) about what IS will look like because the SNP is going to fracture the day after a YES vote and Scotland will have to have another election to decide what Independence is actually going to look like.
Ignore the trolls, obviously.
I rewrote that with a Brexit theme:
Fareweel to a' our British fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the British name,
Sae fam'd in global story.
Now Frome rins over Solent sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where Brexit's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by Johnson’s few,
For offshore traitor's wages.
Europe’s hand we did disdain,
In “Sovereignty’s” fixation;
For Tory lies have been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
Auld Scotland tak’s a hindward glance
And kens what is afore us
Oor “precious Union” has nae chance
We’ve had enough of Boris
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
Doomed to fail this Brexit tale-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
Re-entry to the EU isn’t a given. And it shouldn’t be viewed as such nor something the Scots should immediately agree to. We’re out of Europe now, whether we go back should be subject to debate and a decision will need to be made on it further down the line.
I'd agree with that. When it was so definite we were going to be in EU the rUK was in the EU. Now - not so clear, not that I'm suggesting Scotland would want to remain as far our as England, but there are many things which would need to be considered including the currency and need for physical borders with England which make it a less clear cut choice. But EFTA or EEA membership would seem to be either stopgap or long term solutions. But if we get to debate all these things - why are we keeping the monarchy?
why are we keeping the monarchy?
What's the shape of iS government? Who will be the head of state. When will there be elections? What's the parliamentary term? Is there a second chamber, how are they selected/elected?
In short where is the draft constitution?
It cannot be guaranteed no – but given the positive noises coming out of the EU and from some very senior and the fact there are no major difficulties its as likely as it can be without a formal guarantee.
Where does the mandate come from? Another referendum?
With what currency? (Transitional pound is allowed if you are going for comedy) and what is the transition plan for that? How many years of economic alignment? Should be easy to answer as there as there are "no major difficulties"
What's the impact of a EU single market border with England?
But EFTA or EEA membership
Both of which require a border unless you join the customs union, and freedom of movement with the rest of the EU, and Norway pays more per capita to the EU for the privilege than the the UK used to as a member.
It's a member without saying as much solution, may as well just join along with the Euro and not risk having arun on your currency. Scotland could have managed its oil wealth and revenues like Norway but that would have required a declaration of independence before 1980. Scotland has been raped and pilaged, and left without its most valuable industrial asset.
One advantage of the EFTA is it doesn't involve the Common Agricultural Policy or fisheries agreement. It's worth keeping in mind, not saying it's a deal breaker.
I would say that, overall, full EU membership would be better with EFTA membership being the fall back. But it's important to remember that there are advantages to the fall back solution if it comes to that.
In short where is the draft constitution?
This was the draft constitution bill from last ref
The Times has a good breakdown of how The government plan to counter growing indy support
Brown wants a federal system, personally I think that is what the UK needs & not just Scotland, but all regions
But I'll bet Tories won't go for it & indy is inevitable now
@kimbers - do you have an equivalent link to the current UK constitutuon? Just for comparisons sake.
Was that joke scotroutes?
I believe you can find the UK constitution by interpreting the governments repository of scrolls under parliament
The UK has no need of a constitution so long as everyone sticks to the unwritten rules and gentlemen's agreements...
@kimbers - it was a wry dig at the seemingly unending list of prerequisites that folk have before considering voting for Scottish independence. See also; EU membership (c2014), foreign aid budget, defence budget, etc etc etc.
My point is that if you want a 23 point plan for life after independence in order to vote Yes then you’re going to be disappointed. I would say it’s more a question of general principles and philosophies.
I'm very much sharing Bruce's opinion, you can argue over every little nuance of this, but even Cameron and Gideon admitted the last time that Scotland being financially viable wasn't a question. The status quo is not the norm worldwide, we're not stupid, there will be challenges, absolutely but I'm not exactly seeing the UK as being plain sailing at the moment.
Getting bogged down in every minute detail was a mistake the yes team made the last time, for me the 2 big issues were currency, and it will still be an issue this time, and us getting punted out of the EU. How's that last one went for y'all?.
Do all 27 EU members have to agree on Scotland's re-entry to the EU? I thought Spain said it would veto it because of the Andora situation.
I thought Spain said it would veto it because of the Andora situation.
You mean Catalonia, but please let's not replay this one. Nobody knows with any certainty of the exiting members would object. There have been various comments from Spanish officials to the effect that they're a lot less concerned about this than the Unionists make out.
I can't help feeling that it's all a bit (lot?) like:
'Brexit means brexit' but just: 'iS means iS'
As we've already discussed, the current Brexit arrangement isn't set in stone. There are scheduled negotiation points built in to the process and as a government cannot be held to the policies of its predecessor there would be nothing to stop the Labour Party adopting a much more pro-EU stance and putting that to the electorate. In theory, they could even opt to re-join. We have Brexit because that's what folk voted for.
I can’t help feeling that it’s all a bit (lot?) like:
‘Brexit means brexit’ but just: ‘iS means iS’
Just out of interest, where do you get your information on the debate?
Do you talk to your friends about independence (I'm assuming you live in Scotland or have friends and family who live in Scotland and you discuss independence regularly with them)?
Frankly, the only way you could see Brexit and Independence in the same light is if you are completely detached from the debate.
they could even opt to re-join.
They could opt to apply to rejoin. Whether the application would be accepted is another matter that the UK has no control over. Europe seems to be getting on much better without the UK sabotaging things such as European financing of debt. The balance of power in Europe has shifted away from the neo-liberal austerity countries to the satisfaction of the now majority. I believe Covid and its economic impact have been better managed in Europe thanks to Brexit.
Europe has moved to the left thanks to Brexit. 🙂
Scotland however is much more socialist than the UK and would fit in nicely.
it was a wry dig at the seemingly unending list of prerequisites that folk have before considering voting for Scottish independence.
This kind of mildly patronising post is exactly the type of response that I have come to expect from hardened yes supporters unfortunately. Top tip...if you want to win independence, don't dismiss the opinions and concerns of the very people who's votes you'll need to get you your majority.
Frankly, the only way you could see Brexit and Independence in the same light is if you are completely detached from the debate.
Interesting, where would I go to get greater insight? Because I don’t see much debate anywhere - just people with entrenched views. Anyone asking questions gets accused of trolling.
Interesting, where would I go to get greater insight? Because I don’t see much debate anywhere – just people with entrenched views. Anyone asking questions gets accused of trolling.
Personally, I read the Scottish news and talk to my Scottish friends and family. I talk to people here as well, to a certain extent, but mostly talking to people who have also read and watched the Scottish news.
kimbers
Full MemberThe Times has a good breakdown of how The government plan to counter growing indy support
Does it include "travel back in time to immediately after the last referendum and not act like a shower of ****s"? Because that's the thing they need to do.
Catalonia
When the UK was in the EU the Spanish government said they would veto iScotland joining the EU because it would set precedent for Catalonia to do the same - split and be in the EU
Now the UK is out of the EU this no longer applies - it would not set precedent for Catalonia
The Situation would be much more like Slovenia after the breakup of Yugoslavia
Does it include “travel back in time to immediately after the last referendum and not act like a shower of ****”? Because that’s the thing they need to do.
Nah it seems to be based around sending the despised etonian honeymonster on a non essential journey to pose in some staged photos and give a colourful speech from fish market potato farm a vaccination center
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1353704918050349061
The Situation would be much more like Slovenia after the breakup of Yugoslavia
Was Yugoslavia in the EU? Not that I can recall.
I think I that's the point gauss
You don't have a part separating from an existing state trying to join. You have a part from a external state trying to join after separating from the non member state.
The situation NOW that should have read Sorry if unclear. Uk leaving the EU means there is no need for a spanish veto
Silly me, carry on.
I could still see Spain being a tad uneasy about it though.
I can't say I support Scottish Independence. It all seems predicated on the most small-minded nationalism.
To have any hope of "saving the union" the unionists need to split off the uncommitted independence supporters or pragmatic ones. Those that do not hold an ideological position on independence but rather judge independence as the best way to secure a vision of the future they want. to some extent I am in this group as the key drivers for me are that I want a progressive government and I want to be in the EU
To do this they need to offer something that can achieve splitting these people off from the committed independence supporters. A real federal solution could be that answer but there are two major issues with this. 1: its really had to see a structure that would work given England holds 85% of the population. 4 equal partners with such disproportionate sizes makes finding a structure difficult. It would also have to mean that there was a huge amount more devolution so that only macro economic policy and defense were UK wide so Westminster would be a shadow of what it is and 2: We where promised nearly this after 2014 ( devo max) and that turned out to be a complete lie. fool me twice?
for me that boat has sailed. 10 years ago if there had been a constitutional convention on federalism in the UK they might have been able to offer a vision of a federal UK that would seem attractive. Now i simply do not see one
I can’t say I support Scottish Independence. It all seems predicated on the most small-minded nationalism.
Is that the same opinion you had in 2014 and did you vote No then?
I'm still struggling to find the Yes-to-No voters, though it's apparent that Brexit has created a few.
Wanting a federal UK, and by implication, NOT one person one vote, seems rather cynical to me, i.e., just changing the rules to suit yourself?
Veto for me, but not for thee?
I see it as an escape from small-minderd English nationalism. Brexit will damage Scotland despite Scots voting against it. I can understan eople not wanting their fate decided by a Westminster government intent on policies destructive to Scotland.
Spain needs the support of the other EU 27, they won't compromise that by being difficult over Scotland, they'll keep theri heads down rather than have the EU27 take another look at the Catalan and Basque issues.
1: its really had to see a structure that would work given England holds 85% of the population. 4 equal partners with such disproportionate sizes makes finding a structure difficult.
as part of 'leveling up' it really needs to be done across the UK, not just scotland but the NW, SW etc need much more devolution
for me that boat has sailed. 10 years ago if there had been a constitutional convention on federalism in the UK they might have been able to offer a vision of a federal UK that would seem attractive. Now i simply do not see one
I fear you may be right and Johnson paying lip service to leveling up will only make things worse
I see it as an escape from small-minderd English nationalism. Brexit will damage Scotland despite Scots voting against it.
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh...
This kind of mildly patronising post is exactly the type of response that I have come to expect from hardened yes supporters unfortunately. Top tip…if you want to win independence, don’t dismiss the opinions and concerns of the very people who’s votes you’ll need to get you your majority.
The problem is that you want guarantees about things that can't be guaranteed and it's frustrating because surely you must know they can't be guaranteed. The EU and UK governments haven't told us what they are going to do so we can't tell you.
Hopefully once the referendum gets closer the EU will make it's position clear. That will be a game changer because that will introduce a level of certainty that the Yes side didn't have in 2014.
If the EU stick to the same script as last time and say 'No comment' then you might have to bite the bullet and vote for something where you can't be 100% sure of the outcome.
But then if you vote No you can't be 100% sure of the outcome either so you're ****ed either way.
At least if you vote Yes you have the chance of running into your country's leader in the street and can tell her what you think. Good luck doing that with Fridge Boy.
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh…
Having worked overseas for many years myself I've never heard a Scottish person say Scotland when they meant UK. English otoh...
as part of ‘leveling up’ it really needs to be done across the UK, not just scotland but the NW, SW etc need much more devolution
the only structure I could see working is to split England up into around 10 regions of around 5 - 10 million people and make them equal to scotland / wales and NI. You could use the names of the ancient kingdoms. Wessex, northumbria, etc etc. this would also bring the cornish nationalists a bit of what they want.
All would need parliaments with a UK wide senate. All the "regional parliaments" would need equal and wide ranging powers. Turn the "United kingdom" into a "United states of Britain"
Its far too radical to happen tho i am sure and would still not answer some fundamentals
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh…
Lol, there was a thread on here a couple of weeks back, bikes stolen in 'north west uk'
Yes, it was in Preston. 🤣
When these folk write UK, they actually mean England, which isn't condescending in the slightest.
Wanting a federal UK, and by implication, NOT one person one vote, seems rather cynical to me, i.e., just changing the rules to suit yourself?
Veto for me, but not for thee?
The structure I outline would be one person one vote
You need some mechanism to prevent it being dominated by England or else it does not work You can do this thru a senate like the US whereby all states get an equal say in the senate despite their size, you can do it by splitting England up into smaller units.
Or you could go for super majorities so that England cannot outvote wales, NI and Scotland together
As i said its hard to find a structure that would work for everyone but its the only hope of preventing the breakup of the UK
I see it as an escape from small-minderd English nationalism.
Over 15% of the England's population are immigrants and growing faster than any of the other nations of the UK. Your stereotype of what the English are is almost as out of date as the idiots on EDL marches or subscribers to their social media
We are not short of racist idiots but don't have a monopoly in them within the UK
Over 15% of the England’s population
We're not racist, some of our best friends are black.
Given that Labour have just come out and said that they aren't going to pursue Freedom of Movement in the name of electability and the Tories are a baw hair away from being UKIP I'm not sure that claiming England's nationalism isn't inherently inward looking and jingoistic is plausible.
80% of the English population are going to vote for parties with inherently xenophobic policies at the next election.
Your stereotype of what the English are is almost as out of date as the idiots on EDL marches or subscribers to their social media
From having spent the last 33 years living there, I'm well versed in the attitudes of the English. You're also falling for the Scottish Nationalism = English hatred trope perpetuated by the unionist media. I'm half-English and my wife is the most fervent Indy supporter, she's from Kent - it's about politics and self-determination and not descending into the populist politics of divide and conquer. I've moved here to be part of a community, to build my business and invest here - 30% of the local population are English incomers. All those that contribute are welcome.
We’re not racist, some of our best friends are black.
Seems weird that they prefer to be south of the border? Why do they prefer the likes of Oldham and Blackburn? It's not the weather.
80% of the English population are going to vote for parties with inherently xenophobic policies at the next election.
But they aren't xenophobic, the change is to make them less Eurocentric, which is to essentially invite non white people here. You know like the British Overseas Passport holders in Hong Kong. I wonder what the split across the nation's will be when they start to take up the offer?
We will wait to see what is in the SNP indyref2 prospectus to see if they live up to your standards
All those that contribute are welcome
As they are south of the border, as so many more prove every day
I’ve moved here to be part of a community, to build my business and invest here
If you couldn't be part of a community south of the border it probably says more about you than where you lived
Don't feed the troll
Whe I looked at the potential impact of Brexit it didn't take long to write a list sectors that would be negatively impacted to some degree; finance, aerospace, pharma, automobile, rail, farming, tourism, educaton... in fact it got the point I realised it would be easier to make a list of things that wouldn't be affected, I thought of pubs and brewing but realised that people with less disposable income would spend less in them the range of beverages served would change.
So perhaps people can help me do that list for Scotalnd if it leaves the UK but joins the EU.
Tourism will take a hit if people need a passport to cross the border from England but benefit from being reoped to European tourists with just ID; agriculture and fisheries would require renogotiation with the EU on entry. The oil, hydro and wind energy sectors would be a major asset selling to the highest bidder. Education has always been a scottish forte and rejoining Erasmus would put it back into Europe as one of two English speaking countires in the EU along with Ireland.
What I don't know about is the degree of integration of Scottish companies with rUK business and is it greater than with the EU?
What I'm failing to do is make up that long list of obvious negatives from an economic point of view.
Tourism will take a hit if people need a passport to cross the border from England but benefit from being reoped to European tourists with just ID;
There’s no absolute requirement for a passport. No passports required in the common travel area at present and not obvious why any of the members would want to introduce such a restriction.
What I don’t know about is the degree of integration of Scottish companies with rUK business and is it greater than with the EU?
It’s quite significant, and often the HQ is English and so there could be risk to employment if the Scottish arm becomes hard work - but the alternative of having an English speaking EU (or EFTA/EEA) facility could play into others hands as well - apparently just last week some business were being told setting up an EU subsidiary could make their life easier by UK gov (oh the irony!). Scotland already has some slightly unusual corporate entity structures which would make it potentially interesting for people trying to do business less transparently - not that this is necessarily a good thing.
Education has always been a scottish forte
Sadly not anymore OECD average at best.
You’re also falling for the Scottish Nationalism = English hatred trope
It's not totally untrue though is it?!
it is pretty much. Yes there is an unpleasant fringe but as I have lived in Scotland since the 70s retaining my very english name and accent I can tell you its not really an issue these days. the nastiest element in Scotland is the rangers fan sectarian / unionist bunch. really unsavoury
Barely a hint of anti english racism in the big debate in 2014
What I’m failing to do is make up that long list of obvious negatives from an economic point of view.
The negatives should be very obvious. Leaving the UK will either require using a currency without having any control over it, or setting up a new one that will be attacked by currency speculators. Borrowing money to run a deficit will be expensive either way and the financial sector would leave due to having no realistic lender of last resort. Joining the EU requires a currency that can be pegged to the Euro and running a minimal deficit amongst other things, so that's deeper cuts than the despised Tory austerity. Things may be better in 10-20 years but isn't that just the same crap that brexit proponents spout.
There'd also be the need to setup government departments to duplicate functions that are currently done UK wide which obviously costs money.
After seeing the utter disaster of brexit I'm amazed anyone would want independence in the near term. The English (lets not pretend otherwise) negotiating position would be entirely hostile as anything else would go down badly with large chunks of the electorate.
it is pretty much. Yes there is an unpleasant fringe but as I have lived in Scotland since the 70s retaining my very english name and accent I can tell you its not really an issue these days.
It depends where you live. My best mate who lives just outside Aberdeen was warned off some of the smaller villages by his Scottish colleagues, though they also said that any outsider would have difficulties. Another friends wife experienced "racism" whilst living in Kinross, some shop keepers would serve Scots before her and they had anti English pamphlets through the door.
Spain needs the support of the other EU 27, they won’t compromise that by being difficult over Scotland, they’ll keep theri heads down rather than have the EU27 take another look at the Catalan and Basque issues.
You haven’t got a clue about Spanish politics.
If you couldn’t be part of a community south of the border it probably says more about you than where you lived
Oh yes, how silly of me there’s no difference between setting up an outdoor lifestyle business in a Hampshire commuter town and a Scottish island - I could go down the railway station and hawk my wares to the commuters on the 6:51 to Waterloo 🤣
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh…
TBF, there's a very practical reason why I, at least, do that. When abroad I'm often met with a smile and better treatment when someone asks if I'm English and I reply 'No, I'm Scottish'. I'll not pretend to know the intricacies of why, but it works so...
I've just messaged a friend who lived in Kinross for years and she doesn't have a clue about this anti English stuff going on.
Which shop is this?
Oh yes, how silly of me there’s no difference between setting up an outdoor lifestyle business in a Hampshire commuter town and a Scottish island – I could go down the railway station and hawk my wares to the commuters on the 6:51 to Waterloo
It's only really a handful of locations in the highlands and islands where outdoor lifestyle retailers exist in any numbers so if its wares you want to peddle you're just as well of being near the market than the destination. In this example the market is clearly the commuters with disposable income and aspirational lifestyle purchases.
experienced “racism” whilst living in Kinross,
A good definition of "the fringes" Kinross!
Don’t feed the troll
You keep trolling with your EU membership will be virtually instant and easy
My best mate who lives just outside Aberdeen was warned off some of the smaller villages by his Scottish colleagues, though they also said that any outsider would have difficulties.
If you think the anti-English racism is bad then you should try going up there with a Glasgow accent. Interestingly, the Aberdeen region has the strongest pro-Union sentiments outside of The Borders.
It's interesting how the anti-English racism that is always brought up seems to be strongest among generally pro-Union populations.
Tourism will take a hit if people need a passport to cross the border from England but benefit from being reoped to European tourists with just ID;
Have you travelled elsewhere in the world?
It’s interesting how the anti-English racism that is always brought up seems to be strongest among generally pro-Union populations.
I'm English-born and have lived in the Borders (a pro-Union area) for nearly 10 years - never had an anti-English issue. I ride with many, many locals plus incomers and other English 'settlers' 🙂 Never had an issue.
Look out for an increase in Scottish stories in the UK press with a SNP baaaaad slant. Recent guardian article shows this well. A small piece on the SNP roadmap - 1/4 directly on the roadmap with no comments from the SNP. 3/4 of the article given to the rest of the scottish parties shouting SNP baaad
NO analysis as such. No statements from SNP people.
I’m English-born and have lived in the Borders (a pro-Union area) for nearly 10 years – never had an anti-English issue. I ride with many, many locals plus incomers and other English ‘settlers’ 🙂 Never had an issue.
I was thinking more of the blue areas of Glasgow and Aberdeen in general.
What School did you go to BruceWee? 😉
You haven’t got a clue about Spanish politics.
Well Edukate me then. I just follow what's reported in the press and Spain is on dodgy ground over Human rights in Catalonia. It wouldn't take a lot to tip the Commission in the Catalans favour. The Spanish kept a very/surprisingly low profile over Gibralta during the Brexit negotiations.
https://euobserver.com/political/146271
Have you travelled elsewhere in the world?
Yes. I regularly cross national borders and know which ones I need a passport for and which ones just an ID card will do. In the event of Scottish independence and Scotland joining the EU you'd need a passport to travel between London and Glasgow. However EU citizens would only require an ID to sail from Edinburgh to the Hague in Holland which would be an obvious sea route to open up.
Edit: it might be worth mentionning I worked in Barcellona for a year, have regualar contact with Spanish/Basque friends and can see Spain from my garden.
Scottish born but my family moved south before I was 3 so I have a cut glass English accent. Recently moved up and the plan is to stay here for keeps. I suspect a bit like born again Christians there is nothing more pious than a repatriated Scot!
In 2015 if I had had the vote I would have voted no. There has been an awful lot of water under the bridge since then both nationally and personally and if given the chance to vote I'm minded to vote yes.
But....and it's a massive but.....that is a yes from the heart. It's based on a lot of emotion. It's based on spending a lifetime in tory constituencies and feeling like a minority. When talking generalities Scotland collectively has a different politically and philosophical leaning to England and moving back puts me back in the majority consensus. I like it - not from a my vote 'winning' perspective but from a being surrounded by more like minded people perspective. Translating that into governance feels like a good thing. My yes also comes from an emotional response to London government direction, performance, behaviour and a general loathing of the decisions made by my fellow voters. Divorcing ourselves from the lead weight of gammon English voters and their chosen Etonian flag bearers would feel brilliant.
I am achingly aware that a lot of my reasons for a yes are relatively short term inspired. Bluntly it is a reaction to Brexit, a reaction to BJ and his ilk and a general loathing of English idiot class tory voters. Is is that a rational set of principles to have behind a vote that will be age defining - hell no!
The thing that makes me HATE the majority of Brexit voters with a passion was their voting with ignorance. Voting on a hunch based on no real understand. Voting with the heart but not being able to backup their reasoning with sound logic. Voting without really understanding the consequences or the bigger picture. I would be a massive hypocrite if I did the same I'll be ****ed if I'm going to vote (whenever that is) until I truly understand what is involved and the true impact. Those leading the yes vote will need to win over people like me with a proper detailed strategy and implementation. It can't be a tartan bus with a slogan on it. If Brexit has taught us anything it is that the responsibility to give the workings out and the fine details lays with the side arguing for change from the status quo.