Scotland Indyref 2

That Burns quote - revisited...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15165401.As_Others_See_Us__The_post_Brexit_View_from_Italy/

The subtext: Brexit, Trump, Netherlands extremists and Le Pen are on one side; and Nicola Sturgeon is on the other.

For a significant proportion it has nothing to do with a certain type of society they want to live in and an awful lot to do with 'Scottishness'

I'd also suggest you've got that completely the wrong way round, and for most people it is very much about the type of society people want to live in. In the Scottish project team I'm currently working with, we have people who were born in England, India, Northern Ireland, France, we've even got some Weegies. All resident Scots who have chosen to live here because they like the place. But people are still trotting out the image of woad-daubed Celts shouting nationalist anti-English slogans...

I've been saying that there? would be no Gordon Brown to save May's bacon the way he did with an equally useless Cameron

I was wrong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39309133

Scotland often seems to be viewed as a wayward economic sink by rUK, so what's the big draw in retaining it?

because its a lie lol

rUK would loose out on tax from fishing, oil, whisky, tourism, the nuke sub base, the export of energy. they would loose VAT from the police and emergency services as well. ultimately it would be very bad personally for the government in charge.

The fishing rights is a strong bargaining hand with the EU for WM.

The trouble with the SNP argument is if it's a hard Brexit then independence and joining the EU means a hard border and trade tariffs with rUK, which would obviously be a disaster for Scotland. If it's a softer Brexit with some sort of free trade/movement agreement then the whole justification for a second referendum disappears.

The trouble with the SNP argument is if it's a hard Brexit then independence and joining the EU means a hard border and trade tariffs with rUK, which would obviously be a disaster for Scotland.

Nope

May and David Davies have promised that there will be no hard border between the 2 halfs of Ireland, so it's obviously not a problem

If it's a softer Brexit with some sort of free trade/movement agreement then the whole justification for a second referendum disappears.

And Sturgeon will be able to say she forced May to back down from a hard Brexit,
she's a canny wee operator

Personally I would be in favour of a proper federal solution ( not quite what labour in scotland are proposing)

The trouble with the SNP argument is if it's a hard Brexit then independence and joining the EU means a hard border and trade tariffs with rUK, which would obviously be a disaster for Scotland.

the better question is which approach get them out the shit quickest not whether both approaches put them in it.

The trouble with the SNP argument is if it's a hard Brexit then independence and joining the EU means a hard border and trade tariffs with rUK, which would obviously be a disaster for Scotland

So it's a problem for Scotland to have a hard border and trade tariffs with England

However it's not a problem for Northern Ireland to have a hard border and trade tariffs with the Republic?

Apparently a poll in today's Telegraph shows 2/3 of respondents place 'keeping Brexit' over keeping Scotland within the Union.
OK, we all know what types are most likely to A) read that paper & B) respond to a poll in it, but it does show how some aren't at all bothered about ending the Union.
Personally I think it is inevitable and would rather we focused our efforts on fighting the insanity of Brexit as much as possible.

tjagain - Member
Personally I would be in favour of a proper federal solution ( not quite what labour in scotland are proposing)

I think if Westminster had allowed that in the last referendum, that's where we'd be right now. That was what Home Rule had been about all along, and it was a minority looking for full independence.

I would have been happy with it.

However after watching the British govt in action in the last indyref, very few people would now consider that. We realise just how toxic it is and how inconsequential Scotland is except as a resource. It also leaves us vulnerable to being dragged into Westminster's wars of offence.

If even you as the arch ideological freedom fighter [img] [/img] epicyclo would have been happy with a proper federal solution then a decent federal settlement would have killed the independence movement stone dead

My idea would be something along the lines of 4 national parliaments with the same wide ranging powers and a UK senate to replace the house of lords that are delegates from the national parliaments

This is ultimately the argument with trade tariffs now, looks a certainty Scotland would join Europe(despite euro scepticism, a plus negotiating point for the "canny" scots..), so trade tariffs would actually be an act of self harm by rUK.

And regards to business rates and stuff, well tbh long term, with scotland crontoling their own, they would change in that scenario(if rUK is determined on self harm), not as a race to the bottom, but as to be more European investment welcoming. (Cue scowls that Europe is again, in imminent fear of collapse, any day now...)

so trade tariffs would actually be an(other) act of self harm by rUK.

Aye, but we've seen that economic arguments are invalidated by British Nationalism.

What could make more sense... 😕

muddydwarf - Member
Apparently a poll in today's Telegraph shows 2/3 of respondents place 'keeping Brexit' over keeping Scotland within the Union.

Sturgeon continues to play a blinder. Love her or hate her - she is a canny political operator

In response to Mays "now is not the time" she said ( I paraphrase) "I agree. Now is not the time. I think it should be in a year or so. May might agree as she hasn't said when would be the time. Lets see if we can find agreement on timing, we might not be far apart"

showing herself as being reasonable and open to compromise and putting May on the back foot again

Is Sturgeon the most able political operator in the UK right now? If not who is?

while Wales is sitting there shiting itself

Damn right. Bregret is quite strong here from the conversations I've had.

tjagain - Member
If even you as the arch ideological freedom fighter epicyclo would have been happy with a proper federal solution then a decent federal settlement would have killed the independence movement stone dead...

The Labour Party would then have had a chance of keeping its members instead of being now as popular as an unpolished turd.

But there's too much bad blood now. Brown's revival to utter the same promises of "more devolution" are being treated with howls of derision whereas the last time a substantial amount of people believed him.

"so what's the big draw in retaining it?"

Scotland's quite open that a big motive for leaving is so they can start spending like crazy.

So the concern is Scotland leaves, spends it's way into utter disaster and then the UK ends up having to prop up a destitute country on our border, because if we don't, were going to get 5 million migrants.

Which is why, EU membership and EZ membership for Scotland would answer all concerns/objections, IMHO.

Maybe only 4,999,999 migrants. I'm definitely never moving to England again.

"Maybe only 4,999,999 migrants. I'm definitely never moving to England again."

Damn, the one consolation for me would have been living slightly nearer to Scotroutes. 🙁

I'm a long time supporter of independence from 79 when I was just to young to vote. For almost half of that time I could barely imagine having a parliament.I would have gladly accepted a Federal system then. Iñ the late 80s early 90s things began to change with the Scottish Constitutional Convention, poll tax, etc I began to think devolution was possible then but not independence. Labour lost their way and the SNP moved at least partly onto former ground. Parliament came along with a thumping majority but limited powers and we lost a large chunk of the north sea,...thanks to Blair. I began to consider the possiblity of independence 2007 and the SNP were in power, I'd still have accepted a federal parliament, independence seemed just a bit too far. By 2012 all had changed. So would I vote for a federal parliament if independence was on the ballot paper, it'd be a tough decision but .......pass the woad

Damn, the one consolation for me would have been living slightly nearer to Scotroutes.

Get a room you two!

Anyway fingers crossed today's bike is more than 7 miles long.

Anyway fingers crossed today's bike is more than 7 miles long

kcr - Member

I'd also suggest you've got that completely the wrong way round, and for most people it is very much about the type of society people want to live in. In the Scottish project team I'm currently working with, we have people who were born in England, India, Northern Ireland, France, we've even got some Weegies. All resident Scots who have chosen to live here because they like the place. But people are still trotting out the image of woad-daubed Celts shouting nationalist anti-English slogans...

An observation,
I've spent a lot of time in Scotland over the years, it's a lovely place with a very hospitable people, and I have experienced little anti-English sentiment.
I have however witnessed a lot of anti-English behaviour from Scots that I have met in England.

So Scots don't travel well, and a lot of English people are basing their view of them on a minority.

Interestingly, I've found the reverse is true for the Welsh. The Welsh I've met in England (or elsewhere) have typically been charming delightful people, whereas those in Wales couldn't have done more to make me feel unwelcome and I wish they'd all die in a fire.

Just an observation as to why those in the rUK may have an inaccurate view of our countryman from up North.
🙂

[quote=sbob ] I have however witnessed a lot of anti-English behaviour from Scots that I have met in England.
So Scots don't travel well, and a lot of English people are basing their view of them on a minority.That's the second time I've seen that mentioned (I don't think it was you last time). Something I'd likely not notice of course, though I don't recall being a nuisance when I lived in London. Interesting observation though.

It's just an observation, and it's not like I have met all Scots so I am well aware my evidence is anecdotal, before anyone gets upset.
🙂

outofbreath - Member

Scotland's quite open that a big motive for leaving is so they can start spending like crazy.

Source?

I have however witnessed a lot of anti-English behaviour from Scots that I have met in England

As for wales when i lived there they disliked students and their impact - and also the way english folk bought houses so there there were none affordable for their kids to stay there - rather than it was racist it was about the impact of "immigration" on their country rather than dislike of the english - though 99% who "moved in" were english. Parts of wales are called couse Wales
TBH this was exactly the same view that folk in Devon had of Londoners who bought second homes there

scotroutes - Member

Maybe only 4,999,999 migrants. I'm definitely never moving to England again.

Can you hear the cheers in England from there? 😉

@muddy the poll in the Telegraph was exactly the position I made a gew pages back. IF the choice is between the Union and Brexit I'll take Brexit all day long.

Bank of Scotland. "Just" needs legal structures, skilled staff and reserves (a big number). TJ is under the illusion that an iS would take it's 8% of BoE but that's never going to happen ( SNP well aware which is why they went for using the £). However even 8% of the reserves wouldn't support Scotland's desired banks/financial services. This is what blew up Iceland - their banks where too big for the central bank.

Irish border is quite different to Scottish. An open border is possible but imo not likely. We won't accept a land border with UK mainland and an EU/Shengen member/freedom of movement country. NI is an Island, that makes a big difference.

The comments above about taking assets and things "belonging" to Scotland are simply insane. If Scotland wants to leave it has to be prepared to walk away as its never going to get 8% of this / that and the other. Every year that passes arguing about it will be another year Scotland remains part of the UK with reduced funding, why bother with Barnet transfers post a Yes ? Tax offices transfeted back etc

NI is an Island, that makes a big difference.

Ireland is an island NI is a territory within an island just like scotland

Your insights are always a joy to behold. There is literally nothing simple enough for you to not get confused
Brilliant

As for assets and debts its going to have to be quid pro quo or else scotland will have some pretty tasty nuclear subs and no one can think your position is credible ...and you call a fair exchange "insane"
Your world view is an interesting one I will give you that

What nonsense Jamba. iScotland would be fully entitled to 8.4% on a population share or 9.6% on a taxation input share of all UK assets including the bank of England. Of course there would be horse trading over this - 1/4 of an aircraft carrier is no use to anyone - however you know full well that legally the entire UK debt would belong to rUK - this was completely clear last time and accepted by the unionists and the treasury. So if we don't get a proper deal on the assets then we take none of the debt and it would not be seen as any sort of default because legally iScotland would have no debt

Sturgeon continues to play a blinder. Love her or hate her - she is a canny political operator

In response to Mays "now is not the time" she said ( I paraphrase) "I agree. Now is not the time. I think it should be in a year or so. May might agree as she hasn't said when would be the time. Lets see if we can find agreement on timing, we might not be far apart"

showing herself as being reasonable and open to compromise and putting May on the back foot again

Which is what Sturgeon's supporters would say.

May's supporters would say that Sturgeon is now on the back foot, having retreated from demanding total control to wanting a discussion over the timing. May's statement clearly invited Sturgeon's reaction (not even the most stupid politician would think that "not now" would be met with anything other than "OK, when?").

Perception of events is generally rather tainted by our own political bias.

Sometimes I think one of them has been rather canny, at other times it is the other. Then I tend to settle on them both being effing hopeless. One does little more than whine (or is that just to get her voice heard?) while the other talks like a moderate but acts like a harcore brexiteer (or is that just posturing before negotiations?).

TJ is under the illusion that an iS would take it's 8% of BoE

997 I'm gone naewhere! 😀

One issue unaddressed is the potential for capital flight in either direction.

The Scottish entrepreneurs i know are all dusting off their plans from 2014. I imagine the same is happening for HNWI's in regard to BREXIT.

Thats certainly an imponderable - if it looks like Scotland will remain in the EU and rUK is not getting any deal I would expect financial services / investment to move to Scotland. If it looks like Scotland will be out of the EU and rUK gets a good deal then it could go the other way.

Capital flight is a temporary situation though. When things look stable again. It'd come back.

Listen we know there will be difficulties. It's disingenuous to say there wouldnt be it's also disingenuous to paint them as the end of the world.

NI is an Island, that makes a big difference

Does than mean we are part of mainland Europe then?

poll in the Telegraph was exactly the position I

Poll of Little Englanders, shows they want to live in little England, is hardly surprising

In the Scottish project team I'm currently working with, we have people who were born in England, India, Northern Ireland, France, we've even got some Weegies. All resident Scots who have chosen to live here because they like the place. But people are still trotting out the image of woad-daubed Celts shouting nationalist anti-English slogans...

Statistically Oldham is more attractive to immigrants than anywhere in Scotland.

Oldham has no PR, no marketing, constant rain, why do immigrants choose it rather than north of the border?

jambalaya - Member

NI is an Island

The most jamba post ever

[quote=big_n_daft ] Oldham has no PR, no marketing, constant rain, why do immigrants choose it rather than north of the border?Dunno, but I'd guess there's a lot to do with family connections, cheap housing, maybe jobs?

Any theories?

kimbers - Member

Poll of Little Englanders, shows they want to live in little England, is hardly surprising

Thank god for that!
I could have sworn that you made a post in the week that failed to include the phrase "Little Englander".

Thought you might have been unwell.

🙂