MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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nickjb
Free Member
Lol, 52/48. Those Brexit parallels just keep on coming don’t they? 🙂
brexit didnt poll higher than remain before the ref campaign
& johnson is a gift to sturgeon & co at every turn
And Sturgeons basic competence and treating us as adults is a big positive factor
My dad was a hard line unionist - to the point of campaigning for NO last time and he is full of praise for her and thinking of voting SNP and YES next time
Lol, 52/48. Those Brexit parallels just keep on coming don’t they?
Theres quite a few of us would really rather the bar was set much higher. But the precedent has been set.
johnson is a gift to sturgeon & co at every turn
Of those I know personally that have switched from no to yes, it’s the Westminster government that’s changed minds helped along by the disparaging “you not good enough to prosper outside the U.K.” mob.
Like with most political issues there are folk on both sides whose mind will not be changed. Its the floating voters in the middle who will decide. In 2014 it seems that many of the EU citizens voted NO fearing they would be out of the EU and it appears this group will now be moving to YES
its also clear that those who are sure they will vote YES have increased so the YES vote is starting from a higher base but does this mean the poll of undecideds is smaller or have people moved from NO to undecided - anecdote would say the latter
Anecdote time: I am now a certain YES voter - last time I was reluctant. Amongst my friends I know of two NO voters who would now vote YES and 3 NO voters who are now open to the idea of voting YES
The movement does appear to be pretty much one way and the polls support this
I know of no one who has moved from YES to NO although looking at polling there must be some
Thanks big&daft, and glad to see that we both haven't an issue with adopting the Euro. That's parked that issue (as we both know compromises are available - see Northern Ireland & Brexit).
I feel the handling of the pandemic by Westminster highlights how Scotland could be better off within the UK. I just don't relate to breaking free from a colonial yoke that impoverishes people when the generosity of the British Treasury has been unbounding?
Definitely sick of the 'neverendum' now and feel the government should just get on with the day job.
Scotland seems badly divided now more than ever, one group against another. It distorts and embitters politics and prevents good governance.
You keep coming up with anti independence rhetoric and how bad seeking independence is, or getting it will be.
Perhaps you can demonstrate this with an existing example.
Surely if independence is so bad, then out of the 62 countries that have become independent from the UK, at least half must be seeking to come under its benign management again?
Or if that's too hard, maybe one?
Or maybe you could pull an example out of the independent ex Iron Curtain countries wanting to return to the warm bosom of Mother Russia?
Most of those countries had to face far more difficult transitions than Scotland will. Why are Scots less capable?
Independence is normal for a nation.
2014 55% of those who voted wanted to remain in the UK
2016 62% of those who voted wanted to remain in the EU
One can’t have both it appears, folk are going to have to choose - but those numbers don’t look great for Britain.
Lotto
do you live in Scotland? Not snarky but looking for info
when the generosity of the British Treasury has been unbounding?
Simply not so. Even of the massaged figures over time Scotland has paid much more into the UK treasury than it receives - its only the last few years that its been the other way round and as per many previous discussions the figures used underestimate scots income.
Definitely sick of the ‘neverendum’ now and feel the government should just get on with the day job.
You do realise that the unionist parties mention independence far more than the SNP and that plans for a referendum last year were shelved due to covid? The very term "neverendum" is a piece of unionist propaganda. Look on scottish tory, labour and lib dem websites / faceboook pages and you see far more mention of indyref 2 than you do on the SNP site
kimbers
brexit didnt poll higher than remain before the ref campaign
Not true. In 2012 Brexyism was far higher. Support for leaving has fallen ever since with March 2017 being about the last time the Brexies would have won.
sbrexit didnt poll higher than remain before the ref campaign
& johnson is a gift to sturgeon & co at every turn
What those figures tell me is that the SNP should hire Cummings.
Lotto
Scotland seems badly divided now more than ever, one group against another. It distorts and embitters politics and prevents good governance.
Sounds like the UK and Brexit really.
And it hasn’t stopped since 2016.
do you live in Scotland? Not snarky but looking for info
We have houses in three parts of the UK, divide time as required for work reasons.
Apparently, that Panelbase poll didn't include 16-17 year old.
Indy supporters make much of the fact that Yes started much lower in the polls before 2014 but I think it's fair to say that there are fewer undecided/floating voters now.
Anyway, it's all moot as long as Sturgeon and Co are willing to wait for a PM to allow a Section 30 order.
I feel the handling of the pandemic by Westminster highlights how Scotland could be better off within the UK.
Lolwut? You're gonna have to explain that one.
Anyway, it’s all moot as long as Sturgeon and Co are willing to wait for a PM to allow a Section 30 order.
Posted 7 minutes ago
REPLY | REPORT
Theyve now got a plan B
https://www.ft.com/content/842f20d4-1728-4e9f-8afd-f57228f01e8a
I feel the handling of the pandemic by Westminster highlights how Scotland could be better off within the UK.
Whit troller was that?
We have houses in three parts of the UK, divide time as required for work reasons.
So you don’t actually live here, pay taxes or are eligible to vote? Therein lies one of the problems, everyone piling in telling Scotland how to run its affairs because you like to come here now and again.
2014 55% of those who voted wanted to remain in the
UKEU
2016 62% of those who voted wanted to remain in the EU
FTFM 🤪
A lot of my friends and family vote Yes, I voted no ‘to stay in the EU’...
I’m one of the would definitely change my vote due to actions of the Westminster gov...
Been through the Swiss/French-EU border, no real issue if this is required with England.
New ‘advisory’ referendum (after the pandemic) if SNP wins in May?
Where should I look to see the SNP’s proposals for independence? I presume they will have changed since prior to the last referendum, a lot of things have changed and they were far from convincing back then iirc.
Well, SNP have my vote in May.
I'd like to have another referendum. See what the Yes parties suggestions are and see how they relate to the situation at the time (having let Brexit play out some more).
No guarantee how I'll vote. Went Yes last time, but seeing the Brexit stuff will make sure I'm a lot more objective about judging the arguments for/against.
In other news, my parents were both Yes voters but now would vote No, as they also voted to leave the EU in the Brexit referendum and don't want to go back in. they think the SNP are commies.
Kenny, if the people of Scotland really don’t want another independence referendum, when balanced against all the other issues Scotland faces, they have a number of options in May. If the SNP and Greens can’t achieve a majority at Holyrood the issue will be kicked down the road for another 5 years. In that regard, the same problem faces the Union in both Holyrood and Westminster – a lack of credible opposition to hold the government to account.
Agreed, but I still can't get an answer to the question I posed yesterday. The SNP demand that the wishes of the Scottish people be respected. But when the Scottish people vote again and again and again for parties opposed to another referendum the SNP ignore them. Why is that?
You do realise that the unionist parties mention independence far more than the SNP
Yep. take a look at the Twitter feed of my MP, John Lamont. Even his bio:
"MP for the Borders. Fighting against IndyRef2 : Out of hours, I’m training for my next marathon, somewhere. Triathlete. Ironman."
So you don’t actually live here, pay taxes or are eligible to vote?
Massive assumption, entirely inaccurate.
Massive assumption, entirely inaccurate.
Have you a Scottish tax code or not then?
And Sturgeons basic competence and treating us as adults is a big positive factor
My dad was a hard line unionist – to the point of campaigning for NO last time and he is full of praise for her and thinking of voting SNP and YES next time
This is what I dont understand, independence is wider than just one person.
If she got hit by a bus tomorrow would that mean your dad would be back in favour of the union? I think a lot of people are getting suckered into Sturgeon (to be fair she's less of a D than Bojo).
Definitely sick of the ‘neverendum’ now and feel the government should just get on with the day job.
I see this quite a lot from unionists. What exactly do you mean and where is your evidence. As far as I’ve seen all the talk of independence comes from when she is asked questions about it not a constant stream of chat coming from the SNP.
Massive assumption, entirely inaccurate.
Absentee home-owner then, about as popular as a Celtic fan down the Orange Lodge 😳
@nobeerinthefridge it was @lotto who has obviously declined to show his working.
If she got hit by a bus tomorrow would that mean your dad would be back in favour of the union?
sorry I was not very clear. Sturgeon is one factor among many - Brexit - another tory government in Westminster, the collapse of the lib dems, Tory incompetence
Lotto - simple question - do you pay tax in Scotland apart from council tax?
@kennyp - I'm not sure what you're getting at. If the SNP have a referendum in their manifesto and are elected to power, don't they have a moral obligation to deliver that? It's not like anyone voting for them can have forgotten or not know that is (supposed to be) their main reason for existence. Given there is another party with very similar policies but no desire for independence, it's not like the electorate have a limited choice in the way that exists in England.
For those who can keep a sense of humour
Actually this is funnier
I see this quite a lot from unionists. What exactly do you mean and where is your evidence. As far as I’ve seen all the talk of independence comes from when she is asked questions about it not a constant stream of chat coming from the SNP.
@squirrelking Apologies for 'declining to show my workings' earlier. It is the weekend and I enjoy riding my bike, great weather for it today. Low level was nice hardpack and the hills above covered in snow.
It is hard to argue against the point that for everyone in the UK the generosity of the British Treasury has been unbounding recently. With the furlough scheme for employees, business help for the owners, support has been in the top percentile in Europe, if not one of the most supportive schemes in the world. If the Union ceased, no one country could offer this level of support. The UK has demonstrated it has deep pockets in times of crisis and is willing to do the right thing to protect her inhabitants, other events in history highlight this too. You may not agree with the way in which this help has been dispensed, but not everyone can be pleased and it easy to snipe from the sidelines. Everything being done recently is fair and with the best of intentions.
What exactly do you mean and where is your evidence.
The main rhetoric I hear from the SNP is that a vote for them is a vote for a mandate for another referendum. Hence a large part of the reported news is about how the will of the Scottish people is being denied. It might be my news sources, but the drum beat for another referendum is beaten pretty loudly from where I stand.
@tjagain. Simple answer. Yes, other taxes are paid.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. If the SNP have a referendum in their manifesto and are elected to power, don’t they have a moral obligation to deliver that?
I would have thought they would have a "moral obligation" to have a plan for if they win, you know so you know what you are voting for rather than against. Small things like constitution, currency, borders, defence, foreign aid, taxation, transition plan etc. Otherwise it looks and feels just like Brexit, an anti vote and then make it up later.
the generosity of the British Treasury has been unbounding recently
Tugs forelock, ah yes guv'nor sorry for imposing on you the taxes we pay and you being so kind as letting have some back....
Perhaps if this UK Government spent less time working out ways of how to stuff our taxes into the hands of their mates and donors and more time investing in stuff like critical national infrastructure and the NHS, perhaps the UK death toll wouldn't be the worst in Europe?
Perhaps if this UK Government spent less time working out ways of how to stuff our taxes into the hands of their mates and donors and more time investing in stuff like critical national infrastructure and the NHS.
I hear anecdotal observations like this, but the government as a whole, to my knowledge have never been caught red handed at this sort of behaviour. Nicola Sturgeon on the other hand looks like heading towards a breach of ministerial code.
Nicola Sturgeon on the other hand looks like heading towards a breach of ministerial code.
Just do a Priti Patel on it (a la Boris) and it will all magically disappear...
Breaches (and redhands) are for the little people.
I hear anecdotal observations like this, but the government as a whole, to my knowledge have never been caught red handed at this sort of behaviour
You what? they have been shovelling billions in to their mates hands Ashcroft - you know the ex party chair and large donor has just been givben a 350 million contract to delivervaccines. Harding - no previous experience given billions to set up a test and trace system that ignored local expertise. A tory mp set up a company from scratch to supply PPE that cost 150 million and nothing of any use ever arrived.
If the Union ceased, no one country could offer this level of support.
Utter nonsense. an independent Scotland would have been able to raise money in exactly the same way. The scottish government wanted to shut down earlier in Scotland but could not because the limited powers they have meant they could not furlough people
@tjagain. Simple answer. Yes, other taxes are paid.
A classic Johnson non answer
The question was do you pay income tax in Scotland - yes or no
It might just be me and I may well be wrong but doesn't lotto have a certain wiff of THM about him? Just sayin'...
The question was do you pay income tax in Scotland – yes or no
People who don't pay income tax in Scotland get a vote there, the qualifying criteria aren't just based on this
And as someone who won't answer any questions on how their "virtually instant" EU membership theory works demanding answers is a bit cheeky
The question was do you pay income tax in Scotland – yes or no
No, your question was
– simple question – do you pay tax in Scotland apart from council tax?
Ok Ok - you knew what I meant! what other taxes do you pay in scotland apart from council tax?
BIg and daft - bore off. we are tired of your trolling and provocation
I am more than happy to debate with those who will engage. those who want to provoke and be snidey are a waste of time. this is the reformed TJ remember? his less stroppy brother
Utter nonsense. an independent Scotland would have been able to raise money in exactly the same way.
Their ability would depend on the currency they use, deficit, etc etc
So not the same a the current UK government
I am more than happy to debate with those who will engage. those who want to provoke and be snidey are a waste of time.
All I asked were some simple questions and pointed out the similarity to the Brexit discussion
You just keep reinforcing that similarity
Small things like constitution, currency, borders, defence, foreign aid, taxation, transition plan etc. Otherwise it looks and feels just like Brexit, an anti vote and then make it up later.
As an idle onlooker from a long way off those things seem obvious.
Currency: any country aspirign to EU membership has to commit to joining the Euro zone. The mecahanism for doing that is well defined. So, Scottish pound managed by the bank of Scotland with a view to Euro accession. On independence day Scotland would simply go on using sterling without London's permission before transitioning to a floated Scottish pound and then Euro allignment
Borders: Join Shengen and become a defacto border state with a third country, England. Hard border.
Defence: cooperate with Europe.
Foreign aid: does Scotland need any?
Taxation: social democratic policy of the SNP would suggest taxing those with the ability to pay to provide the services enjoyed by all.
Transition plan: who needs a transition? Just a declaration of indendence should do, as for a constitution, just copy paste the French fifth republic.
As for resistance from the EU to Scotland joining, Google it, there isn't any. Pundits reckon it's possible within five years of independence, that seems realistic.
The question was do you pay income tax in Scotland – yes or no
– simple question – do you pay tax in Scotland apart from council tax?
what other taxes do you pay in scotland apart from council tax?
No I don't know what you mean. I only answered what you asked.
If I may, why does where my taxes are paid interest you? It is acceptable practice to be in a situation every year where you cannot identify anywhere as your home and taxation is based on these circumstances.
No I don’t know what you mean. I only answered what you asked.
Which is why I asked whether you had a Scottish tax code, and you ignored me.
So it seems you pay tax in England/Wales but live in Scotland - correct?
Lotto - its interesting to know where the people who add to this debate live
You were and still are being very evasive but perhaps I and others prodded too hard. If so forgive me / us
Edukator - I am not sure about the french constitution and indeed some things onthat need to be sorted. One thing is clear tho that the scottish government and legal system owes it allegiance to the people of scotland. Is that so of France? Not to the crown, not to the constitution but to the people
So it seems you pay tax in England/Wales but live in Scotland – correct?
Incorrect and I apologize that you felt ignored. I've had a busy day and only chimed in occasionally and briefly read the latest posts, I missed your question on Scottish tax code. I'll try and be more observant in future.
Regards tax codes, it is not something I am comfortable discussing on a public forum. Be best assured I have nothing to hide, I just don't feel it an appropriate place for discussing.
Fair enough lotto - see my post above
Lotto, you aren’t Donald Trump are you?
I mean fair enough if you are, I’m just kind of asking, ‘cos you kind of have his line of argument, particular around taxes 😜.
It might just be me and I may well be wrong but doesn’t lotto have a certain wiff of THM about him? Just sayin’…
Yup, Nigel, is that you?
Foreign aid: does Scotland need any?
No but are you not committing to 0.7% GDP aid to foreign countries? If not that's a very global outlook
As for resistance from the EU to Scotland joining, Google it, there isn’t any. Pundits reckon it’s possible within five years of independence, that seems realistic.
Does that qualify as "virtually instant"?
And why isn't all that published as the SNP ahead of going for a referendum, or is "busking" the policy?
How soon after independence would the first iS general election? What's the parliamentary term? Or is it a one party state? Why is nothing proposed prior to calling for indyref2?
who needs a transition
Scotland would certainly need a transition - to undo stuff thats UK wide and solve issues like ownership of assets
Lotto – its interesting to know where the people who add to this debate live
Is that so an Englishman can close the debate down?
but doesn’t lotto have a certain wiff of THM about him? Just sayin’…
Not to me. He has been polite and reasonable
Big and daft on the other hand................
@ B and D,
You've raised some good points on this thread over the piece but that last post you made kinda sums up where you've been going recently.
I'm sorry to say it but you appear to want to troll more than discuss these days. You've managed to move yourself into checkew's sphere, which is a pity!
B&D is a bit painful but is raising real issues. Ones that we do need to address if we are avoid making the same style of mistakes as the brexiteers.
Lotto is just sealioning.
B&D is a bit painful but is raising real issues. Ones that we do need to address if we are avoid making the same style of mistakes as the brexiteers.
agreed, indy is leagues ahead of brexit in terms of a plan, but if its going to be done, for the good of scotland it needs to be done properly & those questions deserve answers
B&D is kind of missing the point tho , when it comes to refs , brexit has shown its all about heart, not head
I would disagree Kimbers - for those in the middle - the undecided its very much about what you think is best.
A lot of very serious conversations about it last time and the lack of good answers about money did cost votes. I think you underestimate the scots electorate and the depth of the "big conversation" last time
As regards big and daft - he is simply being contrary, provocative and unpleasant. He has clearly been baiting me. Very much like THM. don't feed the troll
So hypothetically the snp call a referendum and all the no voters think 'nope, we've been through this before, the UK government don't agree to this so we won't participate'
If the snp hold their own vote they will obviously win by a landslide as everyone I know who is a firm 'no' sees the vote as illegitimate. I suspect many other no voters will do the same. If they think they may lose this time round, and I think they may, the easiest way to deligitimise the entire thing is to not bother to participate.
For what its worth I'm on fence. I'll probably vote no again if it's in next 12 month's. If however they wait 3 years and brexit has ruined us then ill be a much more likely yes.
I can't see the rush myself. If brexit is so sure to be a disaster then let's wait and find that out, then we'll all want to leave. The snps desire to get a vote when then uk is at its lowest ebb In many many years stikes me as pretty cynical. If they truely had the countries interests at stake rather than their own agenda they would wait amd see what happens in next 3 years. If it's as bad as we think it'll be they will win by a landslide. They are clearly worried that things may upturn and opinion will swing the other way.
but if its going to be done, for the good of scotland it needs to be done properly & those questions deserve answers
Tj is a firm yes to independence, he's told us that many a time. I however am undecided and this comment is 100% accurate. I'm not going to vote yes based on being told things will be fine 'don't worry', which is what happened last time.
Snp need to lay out a plan if they want to win over the undecided. That's where they failed spectacularly last time round. This time they seem to be relying soley on everyone thinking Westminster is useless, rather than selling why independence is such a great plan.
Edit, not arguing that Westminster isn't useless..so the plan may work!
Independence is going to happen.. It's just a matter of when.
The furlough debacle was a perfect indication of why Westminster is failing everyone but England.. There is no Union, its just England lording it over the other nations..
tp - I think yo will see a lot of good info. I hope so for sure. I was undecided right until I went into the booth last time partly because i thought the money stuff was weak. there was a huge detailed plan published before. It really wasn't "don't worry it will be fine"
Why the rush? the quicker we do it the easier getting back into the EU will be as divergence will be minimal is one reason and the other is that the fundamentalist fringe of the wider independence movement are very impatient.
Boycott of a referendum would make it useless for sure which is why Sturgeons wants a legal one 60 % yes on 40% turnout would not convey legitimacy
If however they wait 3 years and brexit has ruined us then ill be a much more likely yes.
I can’t see the rush myself. If brexit is so sure to be a disaster then let’s wait and find that out, then we’ll all want to leave.
Which is lovely if you're in a comfortable enough position to see out the three years (plus any campaign/referendum/negotiation/transition time) of that disaster. Meanwhile we have a Westminster Government trying to weaken the current devolution settlement and of driving us further away from EU standards and policies, making any future re-entry more difficult.
Tjagain:
As regards big and daft – he is simply being contrary, provocative and unpleasant. He has clearly been baiting me. Very much like THM. don’t feed the troll
This accusation seems unjustified to me. Just because not everybody agrees with your rosey-eyed view of how Scottish independence will unfold, does not make them a troll.
Since there are a large number of wavering voters to be persuaded, it might be worthwhile answering the questions as if they were genuine, even if you think they are an attempt to bait you.
Ps I pretty much sit in the same place as tpbiker.
Big and Daft I can appreciate that the comedy video appeals to some though not to me.
However Sìol Nan Gàidheal which is a horrible group and rightly is banned from the SNP displayed that banner at an AUOB march against the organisers wishes.
Then there is the stupid jibe about the drugs deaths. Drug policy is reserved to the UK government. That's why there are no safe consumption rooms etc. Odd that the "comedian didn't check that first.
Finally WOS supports independence but not the SNP
Which is lovely if you’re in a comfortable enough position to see out the three years (plus any campaign/referendum/negotiation/transition time) of that disaster. Meanwhile we have a Westminster Government trying to weaken the current devolution settlement and of driving us further away from EU standards and policies, making any future re-entry more difficult.
thats pretty key, levelling up is needed, across the UK, but weve already seen for fishing that brexit is going to be doing the very opposite of that
post covid & dealing with brexit every region across the UK will need a recovery plan (& i think things need to be much more decentralised fwiw I think a federal settlement is all thats needed but i dont get vote on indy) and planning for Indy scotland is an opportunity to do that, but it CANT be the empty nonsense of the brexies & Johnson
TPBiker I believe that the plan is for the SNP to ask for a section 30 again. If Johnson refuses they plan to take legal action to prove that the Scottish government can hold a legally binding referendum.
Since there are a large number of wavering voters to be persuaded, it might be worthwhile answering the questions as if they were genuine, even if you think they are an attempt to bait you.
Not particularly aimed at anyone here but I get a distinct sense of ‘we know best, you clearly don’t understand’ when I speak to die hard yes voters which isn’t the approach that wins over the undecided
PBiker I believe that the plan is for the SNP to ask for a section 30 again. If Johnson refuses they plan to take legal action to prove that the Scottish government can hold a legally binding referendum.
Well that may work I guess. Can’t see it myself but if it does fair play
p – I think yo will see a lot of good info
Hopefully because last time round the plan was completely non existent. I’ll vote for independence if there is a convincing argument however, as we’ll finally be rid of the tories . But I won’t do it at the expense of future generations just to stick it to the worst government of my lifetime
There is no Union, its just England lording it over the other nations
That strikes me as somewhat hyperbolic.
This accusation seems unjustified to me.
Read back his posts. I am perfectly prepared to debate with those who are civil and who want to debate. He has been calling me names, sneering, putting words in my mouth, being belittling and refusing to listen to anything anyone might put forward. he has contributed nothing to the debate. He is clearly trying to antagonise me. His modus operandi is exactly like THMs
answer him he invents something you clearly did not say then ridicules it, keeps on asking unanswwerable questions, refers to me as "englishman" compares me to gove, states things that are wrong as facts etc etc.
the very definition of a troll. a good troll looks superficially plausible
Hopefully because last time round the plan was completely non existent
This was the published plan before the 2014 ref. some of it will now be out of date and some of it you can pick holes in but its a clear detailed plan
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/
The Book of Dreams was nice enough but not based on anything concrete. That's the thing, until we vote to leave, a national unity government is formed and constitutional arrangements created and ratified you can't say for sure what it would look like. A lot of the extra stuff like defence, EU membership and so on are all political policies and only going to come about through government. At the moment the only thing you can do is aspire and be honest about that, sure you can have plan A and plan B regarding currency and both will have their advantages and drawbacks.
Pretending there is a simple solution and IS will look like X is just daft though.