MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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scotroutes
Full Member
I (obviously) wouldn’t vote for Tory
Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.I wouldn’t worry. The SNP leadership don’t appear to be in any hurry to push for independence. An ever-growing number of folk in the wider indy movement (both within and outwith the SNP) are growing tired of them and would rather they’d spent the last two years trying to sort out Indy instead of trying to fight the will of the people of England and their desire for Brexit.
Aye but you canny sort out indy if you don't have the numbers. So thinking of spending the last 2 years "sorting out indy" was pie in the sky, the polls have only just started to change.
Kinda proves the SNPs cautious approach as correct.
They should ramp up after the 2021 elections, assuming all goes well.
piemonster
I read it as condescending tbh.
Sorry about that then.
It is a proposition that puzzles me though.
Kinda proves the SNPs cautious approach as correct.
Agreed.
Yes, lots of Uber nats are struggling with the pace of progress, but Sturgeon is playing a blinder, without even mentioning the I word.
poly
Free MemberI consider this the “inverse West Lothian question” – rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on “English issues” its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues
Yup. Was always the answer to the West Lothian Question, it's a problem created by english matters being dealt with in an inappropriate place.
But you ask why? Because the english are happy to think of westminster as "their" parliament, of course.
Yes, lots of Uber nats are struggling with the pace of progress, but Sturgeon is playing a blinder, without even mentioning the I word.
TBH I think she is seeing Bozo is playing a blinder for her and she is just letting the clown do the work for her. Going on the fact every time I look at the shitshow that is the government the more I am drawn to independence
Absolutely, I keep telling yoonie colleagues this, bawjaws is the best thing to happen to the independence cause.
It is a proposition that puzzles me though.
Really? It's hardly rocket science..
There are many reasons why folks who don't like the idea of being governed by England didn't vote for independence. And the reason yes lost last time round was because they couldn't seem to understand that.
I think i pretty much align with Ewan McGregor . Boris and brexit are doing a fairly good job of changing me from no to yes .
<p lang="en" dir="ltr">🏴 Actor Ewan McGregor backs Scottish independence: <br><br>"The Scottish people want to stay in the European Union, and the English don't. So I just think we're going in different directions. So I think probably #itstime. pic.twitter.com/zRn6Mw1Zuo</p>— Ross Colquhoun (@rosscolquhoun) September 12, 2020
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I wouldn’t worry. The SNP leadership don’t appear to be in any hurry to push for independence.
Next Holyrood election and what happens after will prove or disprove that. Personally I think Sturgeon has steered a cautious approach partly because thats her nature and partly because thats the hand she has been dealt. However the next Holyrood election needs to be a defacto referendum, a big victory and then a no holds barred run at independence using every tool available.
epicyclo
It is a proposition that puzzles me though.
Probably cause you've got the colonial patter on the brain.
No sure whether ye actually believe it or are just at the wind up.
Hopefully the latter.
seosamh77
Probably cause you’ve got the colonial patter on the brain.No sure whether ye actually believe it or are just at the wind up.
Hopefully the latter.
If you want an analogy:
We've just seen a majority of people in England vote for Brexit because of what they saw as an imposition of rule by a large neighbour, ie the EU.
No really tbh, you'd need to write a book to go into the many reasons people voted for brexit.
Ye canny just simplify it to that to suit your agenda.
I'd suggest it was more of a misguided F U to the British establishment gone wrong, and that element of the vote was the tipping point.
seosamh77
do you doubt Scotland is in a different place politically to England and divergence is increasing? Brexit being one large issue where the differences are huge and obvious
TJ, no not at all. Just don't see any value in the masters and overlords type argument.
Seosamh you're right and you're wrong. 🙂
The issue of independence has to be fundamentally about the right of the population of a country, in this case Scotland to elect their own government.
The history of the British empire is one of colonialism, "empire building" profiting largely by stripping other countries of their wealth through military power or the threat of it. Many Scots took willing part in that and some profited from it. The tobacco barons, and slave traders etc.
The point is that history has shaped our institutions, and to some extent our attitudes and even language. So it will inevitably play a part in any debate.
For example my saying that Scotland is a country will be disputed by some folk
However the next Holyrood election needs to be a defacto referendum, a big victory and then a no holds barred run at independence using every tool available
It's that last bit where it's going to get interesting, we've seen from brexit that there's no lower limit on how nefarious Johnson will be when it comes to preventing it.
By the time we get to a new Indyref Blo Hard may well be gone, as well as his supervisor.
Scotland is in a different place politically to England and divergence is increasing?
Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
Start a London IndyRef thread?
This 🖕+1
seosamh77
TJ, no not at all. Just don’t see any value in the masters and overlords type argument.
Of course you don't.
Unfortunately that is the case, and on current polling over half the population of Scotland believe that to be so.
molgrips
Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
Why not?
Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
You should absolutely start campaigning for that if you believe in it. Or are you employing a 'whataboutery' argument against Scottish independence?
It would appear Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are each seeking independence from Scotland, should Scotland become independent. Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this. The arguments for this would no doubt be similar, and arguably stronger?
Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this
Yes.
Next.
It would appear Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are each seeking independence from Scotland, should Scotland become independent.
My sources on the ground say otherwise but hey, if they want to then that would be their choice. They would end up as tiny nations and the WI in particular would struggle economically. They'd also have to set up a lot of the infrastructure of nationhood from scratch but that hasn't prevented other new countries being formed. I reckon they'd find it easier if they could somehow negotiate EU membership (or something very close to it).
Tories now floating (again)withdrawing from (parts) of the European convention on human rights. that puts them in direct conflict with Holyrood as the convention is incorporated into scots law and the Scotland Act.
the gift that keeps on giving
Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this.
Yes, if they want.
epicyclo
Unfortunately that is the case, and on current polling over half the population of Scotland believe that to be so.
There you making leaps again. I'm part of that half of the population. And I don't believe in your victimhood.
molgrips
Free Member
Scotland is in a different place politically to England and divergence is increasing?Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
crack on. 😆 wales too if you like.
For example my saying that Scotland is a country will be disputed by some folk
It isn't really at the minute though, kinda the point of the independence movement 😆
gauss1777
Free MemberIt would appear Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are each seeking independence from Scotland, should Scotland become independent. Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this.
I'm in favour of any sort of self-determination. But there's never been a real desire for any of this- it's an unsinkable rubber duck that people keep throwing out as if it's an anti-independence argument but there isn't even support for a campaign let alone a succesful one.
There you making leaps again. I’m part of that half of the population. And I don’t believe in your victimhood.
Yep, as am I.
I'd potentially vote for independence as i cant stand anything the tories stand for, yet we constantly have them in power. If westminster was run by a government whom shared my values I wouldn't even consider voting for independence. Getting 'ruled' from another country is irrelevant for me although granted there are clearly folks that seem to have a chip on their shoulder about it.. which is ironic given the same people seem desperate to stay in the EU, which in my mind isn't much different (which I'm very much for btw)
A wish for self determination isn't a chip on the shoulder.
It isn't but constantly bleating on about colonialism is.
^x2
It's boring and just plays to the hard done by Scot stereotype. You can have all the forward thinking, bold new future you like but it still gets dragged back to being under the heel of a "colonial" Westmonster government, a foreign power (insert additional bingo options as required) that is somewhat at odds with the desire to be part of a truly supranational bloc.
Yes, there are multiple failings in the UK government that are giving people serious consideration as to the viability of just being shot of them but don't be under any pretences that we are somehow better than any of that. Look at the cult of personality around the likes of Salmond and even Sheridan. Look at the central belt and tell me the wealth of the country won't just be centred around there.
There are lots of things to be overcome on the road there but not least this notion that we are somehow better and immune from the corruption and myopic politics that led us here in the first place.
I don't like the "colonialism" chat but it's not the worst word you could choose for a situation where a country is told they can't have a referendum on their own future by a government that's been totally rejected by that country. Or equally if you're northern ireland and your MPs are only of interest when they can be cheaply bought to win an election but your interests can be thrown on the bonfire for brexit.
squirrelking
Free MemberThere are lots of things to be overcome on the road there but not least this notion that we are somehow better and immune from the corruption and myopic politics that led us here in the first place.
We are not immune. But better? Yes, I think we're better. Not because we're scots and scots are all awesome, but because westminster is a bloody disaster. It's a low bar, it's not exceptionalism, we only have to aim to be adequate and we're winning that race.
we only have to aim to be adequate and we’re winning that race.
And yet we're not even achieving that. We're effectively a one party state in a system that was seemingly designed to prevent that from ever happening. I've lost count of how many opposition leaders there have been in the last term never mind since SNP took power.
@squirrelking just the two in the last term I think Baroness Davidson and Jackson Carlaw.
As for the one party state stuff that doesn't really stand up. We have had periods of SNP minority government, and arrangements with the Scottish Green Party as well as a spell with an SNP majority government.
I think the one party state thing would cease to be a problem the day after independence.
I doubt the SNP would even manage to stick together until the end of the victory party.
Yup - the SNP is too broad a church to survive after independence.
I think we would see a huge realignment in scottish politics with all 3 main parties splitting - left of labour go off with the real socialists, right of labour and left of SNP for a social democratic grouping, right of snp join with half the Tories to become the rural farming hunting and shooting party and the right of tories disappear down a ukip / bnp hole
And yet we’re not even achieving that. We’re effectively a one party state in a system that was seemingly designed to prevent that from ever happening. I’ve lost count of how many opposition leaders there have been in the last term never mind since SNP took power.
Which would suggest that it's the usual suspects that are the issue, just having a northern office under the same name isn't working, thats quite obvious.
I think it's only Independence that will change that outlook. For years the best politicians have headed south to Westminster, that would stop.
Yep I agree with all points. My point about one party is that SNP has held power for longer than I would consider healthy, I'd be far happier seeing coalition governments again to get a truly representative parliament. But again that comes back to having a decent opposition.
Our politics are broken as well, just in a very different way.
In some ways i would agree squirrelking over 10 myears fgovernments become complacent and run out of ideas. Except this hasn't really happened in my eyes- when Sturgeon took over she changed the path quite radically and refreshed the government well. I am happy she gets one more term with a thumping majority so we can escape the dysfunctional UK. a UK that has been dysfunctional for 40+ years and a Westminster that has done so much harm to the people of this country.
I’d be far happier seeing coalition governments again to get a truly representative parliament.
The SNP are in a coalition with the Green Party at the moment
No they are not. no formal coalition
Last coalition was Lib/Lab wasn't it? Long time ago.
We have had labour governments ( I think) Lab / Lib coalition. SNP minority governments and snp majority governments
The SNP minority government there were coalition talks with the Greens but it never actually happened.
It might have changed over the years, but the SNP was put together for one reason, independence, they had members who were on left and members who were on the right, and those inbetween, i'd say that if independence arrives, then the SNP will more than likely break up into more representative parties.
The gift that keeps on giving
This must be worth a few votes. "It's how it is and it's how it's going to be"
This is the message from the Tory benches in Westminster to Scotland - get back in your box and shut up. Disgraceful. https://twitter.com/fr4ser/status/1306237705123225601?s=20
Why do the Tories insist on making Sturgeons job easier?
They neither understand nor care about scotland and its politics. Johnsons government are the best thing for scots independence that i have ever seen.
Next Holyrood election i will probably do something I have never done before. lend my vote to the SNP and try to persuade others to do so as well. I want that thumping SNP majority so we can get our independence and get on with being a normal social democratic small european country and escape the madness of Westminster and its delusions of grandeur .
Last independence referendum i was badly conflicted for two reasons. I am a brit and I did not want to abandon the north of England. This time around i will have no such qualms
Why do the Tories insist on making Sturgeons job easier?
Job? Sturgeon keeps repeating that she wants a Section 30 order before any referendum. While the Tories hold a majority they are in no need to grant one and while Indy is polling high they have no desire to grant one.
I think you are wrong on Sturgeon dragging her heels - but i think there is that tendency in the party. Sturgeon IMO is right to wait until the polls show a big yes majority and she is by nature cautious. who is right we will see after May. If there are not strong moves then using all available means then you will be right and the SNP wrecked.
The tories really are the gift that keeps on giving. "scottish secretary" claiming Sturgeon is producing different advice just to be difficult and making false claims about Scottish government ministers.
Any have an opinion on the Scottish National Investment Bank?
Interesting concept but I don’t how good an idea it is.
And yet we’re not even achieving that. We’re effectively a one party state in a system that was seemingly designed to prevent that from ever happening. I’ve lost count of how many opposition leaders there have been in the last term never mind since SNP took power.
And an 80 seat majority on the same vote share down south is what exactly?
Or is it that you're just a Unionist?
Not sure if I would describe it as the settled will of the Scottish people yet but...
So Johnson is doing a good job
I don’t normally do over the top political posts as I think they add nothing worthwhile
But
BloHard and the ** he surrounds himself with is a * of the highest **** order and can go * his own * the absolute * * *
Added nothing but it’s improved my mood
The only issue I have with a new vote is we are at a point in time where everything benefits the yes vote, So its not surprising that 58% right now would vote for Independence.
I'd rather have some time for reflection..no covid, maybe not the worst government in Westminster we've ever had, and see how brexit pans out.
Decisions like this should not be made spur of the moment, which given the huge swing in polling recently suggests is the case.
it's always been the case nothing will happen till after the scottish elections, hopefully covid under control by then, well or atleast starting to be with vaccination being rolled out.
Agree that will be interesting to see if there's a swing back and by how much.
And an 80 seat majority on the same vote share down south is what exactly?
Er, fairly predictable in the FPTP model. Our system is supposed to mitigate against such strong governments.
Or is it that you’re just a Unionist?
Oh noes he called me a Yoon!
FWIW no, I'm not. I'd rather not go full independence because I think making borders smaller is no cause for celebration but present conditions in the UK don't give me any confidence that it won't happen anyway. I think we really are better together but only when we all have an equal chance to administer our own affairs and certainly not when we are determined to cut off our neighbours. I can't see that happening any time soon and I would like my daughter to grow up with the same opportunities I had. I couldn't give a stuff about all the nationalist nonsense that goes with the indy movement but I have equal disdain for the similar Unionist drivel. Nationalism of any shape is poison and has no place in an educated world.
But seriously, grow up, the playground insults are just sad. People have different opinions, deal with it.
There's something I've wondered about. Say that, either through incompetence or because it's what Dominic Cummings wants, the Brexit trade deal talks collapse and in January the UK ends up on no deal terms when trading with the EU.
Obviously this is probably going to have a negative effect on a great many people in the UK. And it seems equally likely that this would give support for Scottish independence another massive boost.
However, what could happen if Scotland gained independence while the UK was in that state? If Scotland joined the EU then wouldn't there have to be a hard border between Scotland and the UK, bringing with it a lot of disruption to Scotland's main trading partner? Would the main alternative involve negotiating a deal with the UK and not joining the EU, leaving Scotland more closely tied to the UK than many would like, and still isolated from the EU?
It's no surprise that a failed Brexit trade deal is going to be an all round shit show but I would like to understand how it would interact with the issue of Scottish independence.
If England wants to isolate themselves with closed borders that's their choice, no-one else wants closed borders.
However, what could happen if Scotland gained independence while the UK was in that state? If Scotland joined the EU then wouldn’t there have to be a hard border between Scotland and the UK, bringing with it a lot of disruption to Scotland’s main trading partner?
In short yes - the scotland / england boarder would become the external EU boarder and as such would either need an England / EU deal to remain open otherwise its full customs checks
seosamh77
If England wants to isolate themselves with closed borders that’s their choice, no-one else wants closed borders.
That doesn't mean that a hard border between Scotland and the UK wouldn't affect Scotland, whether Scotland wanted it or not. But it seems that the options in the no deal Brexit/Scottish independence scenario are either open borders with the EU and a hard border with the UK, or vice-versa.
And that's Englands choice, I'm no fussed either way. we'll find out in january.
See the Irish border shitshow? That'll be us. But worse probably
Not really YGH - there is no international treaty that is like the GFA and local cross boarder stuff is not as critical I do not think so similar but less complicated. many less roads crossing the border as well
The thing is, a sealed border should never happen, because it's almost as bad news for England as it is for Scotland, and it's bad for Wales and NI too. HOWEVER. A border in the irish sea should never happen. And turning Kent into a lorry park should never happen. And leaving the EU with no deal should never happen. So, I've less faith in mutual self-interest and believing things will happen just because they're obviously the only good option than I used to.
Before indyref one, if Westminster had said "If Scotland gains independence, we'll infect everyone in England with cholera so that it spreads into Scotland, independence will kill millions of people" I'd have said it was just crazy talk pre-vote and would never come to anything. These days, I'd probably start digging a well.
I can’t see that happening any time soon and I would like my daughter to grow up with the same opportunities I had.
Well Brexit has already ****ed that big time.
My kids can't just upsticks and get a job in Germany like I did, nor be able to do the 3 international jobs I had (based out of the UK either).
For our kids, we need to be back in the EU, and Scottish independence is the only game in town IMO.
Another gift for Independence
It's a good possibility that a UK wide vote would see a higher "yes" vote for iS, the direction of travel has always been to niggle and hack off in the true tradition of ABE
Aye, we should know our place instead.
The ABE mentality is fairly rare these days tbh.
Nice deflection big n daft! Still:at least our slightly better hospitals will take more care of your one eye.
ABW is more relevant than ABE
Despite my place or birth and current residence, I’d completely forgotten ABE was a thing.
Was it ever?
Only in sport have I seen it. Been on the wrong end of anti english predjudice a time or two but that is from the dimwit end of the scale not mainstream thinking and not seen any anti english sentiment for 20 years. the " our friends and neighbours" line from the SNP has removed the legitimacy of anti english sentiment IMO and reduced it greatly.
ABE is pretty strong in Oz still.