The flying ox - correctish - it would seem the two figures scotlands assets share and debt are in similar regions although the assets is higher. My point is that only 1/4 of scotlands share of the asets is actually in Scotland so around 75 billion worth of assets is physically in england but belongs to scotland
some of those assets we don't want like aircraft carriers or we cannot use - like the houses of parliament or whitehall. So of this 75 Billion some of it could go to rUK in exchange for some of the debt? Seems fair? Or some horse trading over thiese two aspects.
Of course last time the tories told us no deal at all on this - in which case rUK keep both the 75 billion of assets and all the debt which saves scotland 2.5 billion a year in debt repayments or a good part of the deficit
Where are you getting your figures from TJ? I can only find UK Asset list from 2007, some kind of 2012-ish Government asset/liability report, and some slightly more recent BfS opinion on what's "fair".
From the net. IIRC it was from the last asset review in 2012 which basically updated the proper survey in 2007.
don't worry about the exact figures - they will be in the right ballpark and its the principle I am getting at not the exact sums
International law (as a starting point - it is all negotiation) is fairly clear on assets. Fixed assets (the Bank of England, Westminster, schools, hospitals) generally stay where they are - i.e. a geographical split. As do any assets purchased for local use (e.g. gritters in Inverness, dredgers on the Thames). Moveable assets for the benefit of the whole UK (aircraft carriers, bank reserves) get shared.
The idea the SNP mooted last time around that Scotland is entitled to 8% of the bricks in Harrogate High School has no place in the real world.
My point is that only 1/4 of scotlands share of the asets is actually in Scotland so around 75 billion worth of assets is physically in england but belongs to scotland
Not sure that's really accurate TJ as some of the assets owned by the foreign office, and the armed forces will be overseas. As with that part of expenditure which is attributed to Scotland but not spent in Scotland it may not be possible to clearly trace a particular amount of "Scottish Expenditure" to the ownership of an asset. Therefore you might want to attribute ownership on a per centage of population basis. My own preference would be to negotiate shared use of some embassies etc
Theres a lot of FUD* being cultivated (again) around the economics of independence.
There is certainly room for different perspectives on GERS deficit figures.
As I've stated, the GERS figures are estimates, but so are ALL such figures for all countries, even Greeces
(N.B. the size of the black economy in Greece after all the shennanigans might mean that the Greek economy is actually in a better state than it looks but the government can't see the money?).
But [again] if there was a clear magic bullet to make iScotlands economic picture look similar or positive compared to the current UK situation, where is Nic and her megaphone?
She creates (by proxy) and accepts the accuracy of the GERS figures.
So, ask yourself. Is she corrupting the true picture? and Why?
If not, then why is the FUD on Twitter Facebook and in online forums necessary?
(*Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)
Teresa may just been asked in PMQ's with the level of debt, could the UK afford to be an independent country? her face is priceless - dunno if this'll play on here: (edit, nope)
If not - [url=
this[/url]
mcj78 - Member
grumpysculler - Member
And now parliament will have to consider debating blocking another referendum:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642Democracy at work!
Yeah, that'll learn them pesky jocks eh - a load of predominantly English right wing tory punters telling Scotland they can't have a democratically decided vote on becoming an independent country, best pro-indy propaganda i've seen yet, well played
Democracy in action indeed
Funny you should mention that, but John Innes lives in my town (in Scotland), is Scottish, and now doesn't talk to his former best friend, who was pro-Indy.
Quotes from a bunch of respected economists
Quotes from a former government statistician, a journalist, an accounting firm, and a tax campaigner.
Eat the pudding - fuds indeed.
Fair enough mefty - its worth read but also worth noting the source
gordimhor
Again fair enough - yes some of it is overseas and its all subject to the negotiations.
How much is scotlands 9& of the bank of england worth? thats a really tricky one 'cos if westminster don't want us to use the £ then its going to have to buy us out in some way.
Funny you should mention that, but John Innes lives in my town (in Scotland), is Scottish, [b]and now doesn't talk to his former best friend, who was pro-Indy[/b].
Sounds like a reasonable chap eh? 😆 Most folk on here are complete strangers yet can have a bit of friendly banter over differing political opinions, shit - a good few of my close mates are rather staunchly unionist in their views, but I couldn't possibly imagine severing ties with my best friend over it... happily admit I jumped to the conclusion it would be someone south of the border that started the petition - still, it'll get the Yes2 campaigners riled up a bit, how many petitions are we going to see in the coming months?
Where I live in the Borders there are an awful lot of retired English folk (including myself in not too many years 🙂 ).
So in the future maybe Scotland could offer the same scheme as Portugal (Jamba mentioned it previously). This would bring plenty of cash in (plus obviously they'd also need to sort out their medical insurance).
b r - Member
Where I live in the Borders there are an awful lot of retired English folk (including myself in not too many years ).So in the future maybe Scotland could offer the same scheme as Portugal (Jamba mentioned it previously). This would bring plenty of cash in (plus obviously they'd also need to sort out their medical insurance).
Retired to Scotland ... 😯
Not cold enough in England? You want to freeze people to death? 😛
Ya, that Portugal scheme ... nobody wants to go there coz it's a dump.
I find it interesting to see people retire to foreign land (not talking UK or English speaking countries) where they have no connection with apart from being tourist. I mean do you really want to see the last day of your life away from home and your love ones?
mcj78 - Member
Sounds like a reasonable chap eh? Most folk on here are complete strangers yet can have a bit of friendly banter over differing political opinions, shit - a good few of my close mates are rather staunchly unionist in their views, but I couldn't possibly imagine severing ties with my best friend over it...
Agreed 1,000,000%
mcj78 - Member
... but I couldn't possibly imagine severing ties with my best friend over it...
You don't severe ties with best friend.
However, how can you(generally speaking) and best friend have so different views? Surely, both should be like minded otherwise they are far apart in thinking ...
Yup - I have one friend I cannot debate politics with - we just keep off it as he is a NO outie tory!
Losing friendships over this is simply stupid - as my (previously) unionist mother said after the last one - "if it goes the way I don't want I'll just have to thole it"
tjagain - Member
Yup - I have one friend I cannot debate politics with - we just keep off it as he is a NO outie tory!#Losing friendships over this is swimply stupid - as my (previously) unionist mother said after the last one - "if it goes the way I don't want I'll just have to thole it"
Politically we all think alike me and me mates but they are in the other part of the world. Religion might be slightly different but no big deal. i.e. our hell is deeper than your hell. 😆
[quote=seosamh77 ]BoardinBob - Member
seosamh77 » Can I complain? Just stop it with the wings site! please?
Why?
Plenty of unionist or English biased media gets quoted.
Cause it's largely one mans biased opinion, it's not a reliable news source.
He really should just talk shite on forums like the rest of us. Why he needs his own site is beyond me.
Is anything on WoS worse than this kind of biased mainstream media?
BoardinBob - Member
Is anything on WoS worse than this kind of biased mainstream media?
> http://archive.is/quTjx
Have you seen how the fake media portray President Trump? 😛
I mean he is the President of USA while Sturgeon is only a 1st Minister ... 😆
Can't say I get my info from the telegraph either.BoardinBob - Member
Is anything on WoS worse than this kind of biased mainstream media?
[quote=seosamh77 ]BoardinBob - Member
Is anything on WoS worse than this kind of biased mainstream media?Can't say I get my info from the telegraph either.
True, but it's still out there
seosamh77 - Member
...Same with epic, chill out on the freedom patter. It's * ridiculous. 120 years of resistance. Perhaps by 2 men and a dug. But no body really gave a * about it till the last 10 years. Take a reality check for * sake.
So you've never heard of the 1949 Scottish Covenant signed by 2 million people after WW2? They certainly gave a * about it. The Scottish Covenant Association was non-partisan and was very active in the 1950s and 1960s.
The process started in the 1850s backed by the Tories and then the Liberals. After a few false starts a Home Rule Bill was introduced in 1913, but WW1 got in the way, and then of course WW2.
The big problem was the SNP had lost credibility before WW2 because some of its nutters were admirers of the German state, and it's taken them this long to shake that off.
Meanwhile of course both Labour and the Liberals were purportedly supporters of Home Rule, so the SNP looked superfluous. In any case it was too busy with schisms - a bit like the Judean People's Front or was it the People's Front of Judea?
Doesn't mean you need to quote it.BoardinBob - Member
seosamh77 » BoardinBob - Member
Is anything on WoS worse than this kind of biased mainstream media?Can't say I get my info from the telegraph either.
True, but it's still out there
epicyclo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
...Same with epic, chill out on the freedom patter. It's * ridiculous. 120 years of resistance. Perhaps by 2 men and a dug. But no body really gave a * about it till the last 10 years. Take a reality check for * sake.
So you've never heard of the 1949 Scottish Covenant signed by 2 million people after WW2? They certainly gave a * about it. The Scottish Covenant Association was non-partisan and was very active in the 1950s and 1960s.The process started in the 1850s backed by the Tories and then the Liberals. After a few false starts a Home Rule Bill was introduced in 1913, but WW1 got in the way, and then of course WW2.
The big problem was the SNP had lost credibility before WW2 because some of its nutters were admirers of the German state, and it's taken them this long to shake that off.
Meanwhile of course both Labour and the Liberals were purportedly supporters of Home Rule, so the SNP looked superfluous. In any case it was too busy with schisms - a bit like the Judean People's Front or was it the People's Front of Judea?
Home rules a different thing from independence.
Regardless, it's your flag waving ultra nationalism I have a problem with, oh I'm so oppressed... For one I just don't understand it. And secondly. It's that type of nonsense that'll kill any second referendum stone dead.
Didnt know Guy Verhofstadt has prevuiously said this
“[b]If Scotland decides to leave the UK, to be an independent state, and they decide to be part of the EU, I think there is no big obstacle to do that[/b].”He said it would be “suicide” for the EU to refuse entry to people who are “sympathetic” to the EU’s aims.
Verhofstadt was also supportive of Scotland’s vote to remain in the EU following June’s referendum.
“It’s wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss with Nicola Sturgeon,”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/eus-chief-brexit-negotiator-agrees-8796253
kimbers - Member
Didnt know Guy Verhofstadt has prevuiously said this
Ya, we see him coming ...
He would be stoopid not to take the opportunity to create schism as presented to him on the plate by the SNP.
Look at the mess he created for his country ... what a tool.
The Telegraph should not have published with the original headline. I'm not a big fan of Stu Campbell, but wings comes up with some good stuff. Similarly I don't like the telegraph but it also gets some good stories. Yet it publishes headlines calling for the first minister to be beheaded. I believe it was in jest, but I'll advised given the reports of abuse and death threats received by all the female party leaders in The Sunday Herald. It would have been unacceptable from WOS it should also be unacceptable from The Telegraph. Fair play to Ruth Davidson for condemning the article
[quote=gordimhor ]The Telegraph should not have published with the original headline. I'm not a big fan of Stu Campbell, but wings comes up with some good stuff. Similarly I don't like the telegraph but it also gets some good stories. Yet it publishes headlines calling for the first minister to be beheaded. I believe it was in jest, but I'll advised given the reports of abuse and death threats received by all the female party leaders in The Sunday Herald. It would have been unacceptable from WOS it should also be unacceptable from The Telegraph. Fair play to Ruth Davidson for condemning the article
The metro had something about Sturgeon throwing a sporran in the works.
But I'm confused; I thought the abuse only came from the Indy supporters? I mean; a self appointed expert on constitutional matters said so on the last page.
Didnt know Guy Verhofstadt has prevuiously said this
There's a good chance this is actually a negotiation tool as much as anything
Regardless, it's your flag waving ultra nationalism I have a problem with, oh I'm so oppressed... For one I just don't understand it. And secondly. It's that type of nonsense that'll kill any second referendum stone dead.
Agree with this. To win the referendum it's the moderates that need to be won.
Screw that. I'm currently brewing up a particularly virulent Winter Vomiting Bug to kill off the old bastards that still have some sentimental attachment to the UK and empire.
and whats your date of birth Scotroutes? do you count as an old bastid yet? Be careful of backfires!
yip, needs a smarter and much more self critical approach too. There was an awful lot of naivety and over optimism about the last one.piemonster - Member
Agree with this. To win the referendum it's the moderates that need to be won.
Old Barstads!
Where's the line? In possession of a free bus pass?
Just catching up. BruceWee's long post earler had this as the final paragragh
Providing they don't cock up the currency question (own currency pegged to either the Pound or the Euro or a basket that includes both) and that they make it about access to the Single Market rather than membership of the EU then I struggle to see how Yes doesn't win this time around.
He is quite right about need for a sensible answer on the currency this time round but he was very prescient with the EU remark. By focusing on the EEA an iS would retain the ability to negotiate a trade deal with its most important partner. If it joined the EU is it would be entirely beholden to the deal the EU and UK negotiated and would be collateral damage to any attempt by the EU to "punish" the UK or the UK's decision to opt for WTO.
[quote=tjagain ]Nope - we want 8% 'cos we have less than 8% of the UKs assets in Scotland
Like the bank of England - how much is that worth? Its a uk asset so belongs in part to scotland - as does HS1 (and 2) as they were built with UK strategic funds not english only spending ( IIRC) under Barnett
I'm sure we've done this one - HS1 does appear to have been a UK strategic investment, however they changed their minds on HS2 (presumably when they decided it wasn't going to Scotland) and there is Barnett funding from it.
Though when I was checking my facts I came across this interesting article where WoS points out the huge hole in the Scottish budget with no oil money 😯
http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-scotland-will-be-robbed/
[quote=tjagain ]Trouble with that line of action eat the pudding is that that would mean rejoining the EU not continueing with membership - this is why leaving the EU is both an opportunity for Scotland and a trap. Proclaiming independence before the UK leaves the EU is the best chance of staying in the EU and making that part of the independence deal easier.
The trouble with that argument is that the UK "proclaimed independence from the EU" some time last year. As discussed earlier, the timescales simply don't work as there is no way Scotland can successfully become independent before the UK leaves the EU given the proposed referendum date. It would require some quite incredible political wrangling and completely new EU laws on secession to allow Scotland to continue with EU membership whilst still being a part of the UK which has just left. The comments of Verhofstadt et al are simply negotiating positions (TBH I'm tempted to include NS in the "et al" - I still think the main purpose of the announcement was to give her leverage in discussions).
p.s. what's your [b]exact[/b] DOB? 
I quite like Ruth Davidson. I disagree with her politically, but I think she is a good politician, not a game player and really believes what she's talking about. Can't say I feel that way about many other people from the Conservative party. Got a lot of time for Ken Clarke though.
Ruth is my MSP actually
aye, really admired the way she completely flip flopped on europe overnight, very principled! 😆yourguitarhero - Member
really believes what she's talking
[quote=seosamh77 ]
gaye, really admired the way she completely flip flopped on europe overnight, very principled!yourguitarhero - Member
really believes what she's talkin
* Cough *
Line in the Sand
* Cough *
I do wish folk would stop bigging up Ruth Davidson. She only says what she's been told to say - and even then seems to get it wrong.
Pushing boundaries again scotroutes?
I also don't understand how anybody can talk about a Tory resurgence either. One national MP and 6 in the Scottish elections, even Davidson needed the party list to get her seat. I cannot get her affiliation either;single parent family from the post industrial part of Fife where they used to dig coal and build things. Maybe being a Tory is an act of rebellion?
