Scotland Indyref 2

[quote=eat_the_pudding ]

no-one has owned up to who will pay the price (beyond "it'll be hard"). My guess for the people who will pay are the same people as always, the poor, the sick, the elderly.

Well the obvious answer is taxation. However, no one really wants to say that.

My sister in law shared a video on Facebook recently extolling the strong social services etc in Holland and how wonderful it was and how she wanted to live there or for Scotland to be like that.

When I explained the taxation levels in Holland that were necessary to pay for the standard of living there, she quickly stated there was no way she would be interested in paying more tax.

TurnerGuy - Member
I think there should be referendum in England about ejecting Scotland - I'm pretty sure many people are getting sick of these pathetic, whinging Scots...

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Jamba - more nonsense - do you actually read anything from the SNP? Or simply rely on nonsense from the right wing press? The SNP certainly believe its possible to continue in the EU and many influential folk agree it would be no issue

BruceWee - Member
Jamba and his ilk will be putting enormous pressure on the Tories to start making the scrounging Scots pay their fair share. Massive budget cuts for Scotland will be the order of the day

This is a key point, much is made about the finances under an Iscotland. But once this issue has passed(If defeated), the Tories will not live with a Scotland and a 15 billion deficit. Cuts will be passed down, harshly. And that's before we even start on the completion of the privatization project that the brexiteers will flow out with.. Sure it'll be a great NHS when we are all paying to see the GP etc... 😕

A bit of hysteria there. Yes. Point is though, that if this is going to go ahead, it's not just the SNP vision we need to consider. We need to consider the UK vision. Which will come from the tories.

Essentially, if this goes ahead, we're looking at battle lines of a tory vision v the SNP vision.

A wildly different dynamic from last time.

tjagain
Yes absolutely, I guess you could say it's an "anti SNP blog" I'd see it more as a blog with pretty well referenced facts about business and economics in Scotland (so maybe anti-snp by default?)

But the information there is referenced and the fact is that the founders had connections to the SNP, 6 of the 7 directors resigned after 2014 and three of them stood for office with the SNP later.

They were also registered as a pro indy group.

So maybe if you can reject my info as "anti snp" I can reject yours as pro?

In any case your "sell the family silver" economic strategy neglects to cover why no other country has tried that path out of economic trouble to that massive extent. (tho' some have done it a bit)

Also assets are really only worth what someone will pay, and what's the market like for 2nd hand frigates these days?

Eat the pudding, question to you. How long will the Tories live with subsidizing a "15bn deficit" Scotland?

The makers of Absolutely really need to come out of retirement and resurrect McGlashan

The makers of Absolutely really need to come out of retirement and resurrect McGlashan

I've been looking for that sketch for ****ing ages, I just couldn't remember who did it!! Thanks!

It's so often I do variations of that in the pub it's always worth being reminded what I look like 🙂

I think there should be referendum in England about ejecting Scotland - I'm pretty sure many people are getting sick of these pathetic, whinging Scots...

How many times a day do you think Theresa May is going to be hearing this for the next four years?

Eat the pudding - its like saying the CBI is a tory front. You simply do not realise what a small world politically it is in Scotland. Business for Scotland is completely independent of the SNP and is simply one of a load of pro independence pressure groups. Indeed they have been a thorn in the side of the SNP on occasion

this is just a few of the groups who support independence. YOu will find a lot of cross membership with the SNP in some of the groups. are they all SNP fronts?

women for independence, Scottish green party, Scottish socialist party, 1001 Campaign, Business for Scotland, Christians for Independence Farming 4 Yes, Generation Yes, Labour for Independence, National Collective, Radical Independence Campaign, acedemics for yes, scottish secular society

That's not counting the groups who support independence but isn't their only issue. My Mum is active in both the SNP and the Glasgow Women's Socialist Choir 🙂

How long will the Tories live with subsidizing a "15bn deficit" Scotland?

If that was the objective of any government, either London would declare independence or everywhere in the UK outside of the South-East would see monstrous cuts.

Part of being a state is that the wealthier areas financially support the less wealthy areas. It happens in every country in the world, it would happen in an independent Scotland.

That's nice, but how long till the tories start passing down massive cuts?

A bit of hysteria there. Yes

Nothing else needed!! 😉

seosamh77 - Member

That's nice, but how long till the tories start passing down massive cuts?

its already started

teamhurtmore - Member
A bit of hysteria there. Yes
Nothing else needed!!

Going to have to hear this UK vision though...

I gave it a few pages back - followed by a tirade from the Chief Troll, which is worth going back to read for a laugh.

Maximise the opportunities, minimise the risks to deliver the best results. It really is not that hard 😉

Your balance is appreciate among the hysteria and general Nat BS - today has been great! - so bravo! Nice to debate with you as always, even though we disagree here! 😉

So now we have "massive cuts" is that the same as the 'great' 4.5% recession ?!?

Going to have to hear this UK vision though...

Indeed, it's only fair that if Yes is required to have a 20/20 crystal ball then Westminster has to have one as well.

Turner guy

TurnerGuy - Member

Aircraft carriers and subs for example - useless to iScotland so selling our share back to rUK will give iScotland a bucket full of cash.

Why would England be buying these back, they belong to the UK - not Scotland only ?

Yes - 9% of them belongs to scotland so rUK would have to buy scotland out of their share or deal off in some other way. We don't want / need the aircraft carriers so rUK would have to buy us out. 23 billion worth of UK asets on scottish soil, Scotlands share 100 billion plus so thats 75 billion plus of property or money rUK would need to transfer to iScotland - or we take none of the debt

Yes isnt required to have one - they have already [s]rammed the lies down our throats[/s] volunteered the definitive view of the future including full details of the (yet-to-start) Brexshit negotiations.

If you ask nicely, you might get a tip on the lottery numbers for next week.

Maximise the opportunities, minimise the risks to deliver the best results. It really is not that hard

In order to maximise the opportunities we need a small dynamic country. In order to minimise the risks we join the single market. Simple, next!

Or maybe it's a bit more complicated than that.

its great to have the "no debt" BS spouted again and again....basic knowledge of facts required 😉

A lot more

seosamh77.. is that project fear I hear? 🙂

If things are going to go bad and staying in the UK will lead to 15 Bn in cuts from Westminster, then the economic argument against indy goes away like tears in the rain.

That's why it'll keep coming.

If it stops. Maybe it would be time to call a referendum?

It is good that you've realised that 15bn cuts would be a very big bad thing tho'.

tjagain
I don't think realise just how much top level planning goes into organising a 'grass roots' independence campaign 🙂

The 'small pool' argument is fair, but the representativeness of those groups (on all sides) for their particular constituency, should be looked at before they get treated as authoritative. Eg. during the EU ref we had organisations representing large numbers of UK businesses appearing opposite Dyson, and given equal time. Fair? Transparent?

EDIT For reference I have no problem referring to orgs like "the taxpayers alliance" etc. as a tory front, any more than "Business for Scotland" as an SNP front. The deciding factor for influence should be who pays your bills, how may people, businesses or employees do you represent?

Otherwise its just talkinf heads doing "triple-A" reporting.*

*Ask Any A'hole

eat the pudding - yes I agree you need to know where folk are coming from to understand their position. I was simply correcting you tho on business for scotland being a SNP front as it isn't

Lets agree to differ and have a look at the makeup and background of representatives if it expands again over the next few months/years.

For starters I'm guessing Michelle Thomson won't be involved this time.

We havent mentioned the Russian links yet 😉 They will be licking their lips with delight at another referendum to lay with.

Anyone wonder why there was one rogue poll and its timing last time - where's jhj when you need him!!

eat_the_pudding - Member
seosamh77.. is that project fear I hear?

We do learn! 😆

seosamh77
a few pages from now, I'll be boasting about the secret oil fields off Norfolk. 🙂

For starters I'm guessing Michelle Thomson won't be involved this time.

Or perhaps she will be because she isn't SNP 🙂

And now parliament will have to consider debating blocking another referendum:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

Democracy at work!

Eat the pudding - one thing that will be very interesting is the economic analysis the SNP are going to have to put forward and the answers on currency. they lost on these two points last time. Lets see if they can do better.

Last time I wanted to hear good answers from the SNP in 3 areas, defense, Economy / currency and EU

I was and remain quite happy with both the EU and defence situation. I wasn't hugely happy with the answers given over economy / currency. the SNP will have to do better this time but then again its against the disaster of the UK leaving the EU with as most people seem to think around a 10% loss to the economy over 10 - 15 years.

this time its not "carry on as before" V " uncertainty" its "out of the EU with a damaged economy" or "stay in the EU with a possibly damaged economy"

slightly different choice

eat_the_pudding - Member
seosamh77
a few pages from now, I'll be boasting about the secret oil fields off Norfolk.

Ones in the clyde i'm interested in! 😆

tjagain,
The scale of the economic pain would be different though, (no-ones suggesting that UK will become Greece) and we're insulated to an extent from disastrous changes to the NHS etc. via Holyrood.

For me it's not uncertainty 1 vs uncertainty 2, its uncertainty squared.

Out of the UK AND out of Europe would not be a comfort.

If I was a pragmatic nationalist I'd be in favour of keeping my feet dry on the UK, waiting to see if the boat sinks and stepping off just as it goes under.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/gers-by-economists/

Before the Yoons complain

The sources we’ve quoted above cover Unionist and pro-independent voices, the left and right of the political spectrum, and across the full breadth of academia, media, big business and individual expertise.

grumpysculler - Member
And now parliament will have to consider debating blocking another referendum:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642

Democracy at work!

Yeah, that'll learn them pesky jocks eh - a load of predominantly English right wing tory punters telling Scotland they can't have a democratically decided vote on becoming an independent country, best pro-indy propaganda i've seen yet, well played 😆

Democracy in action indeed

Can I complain? Just stop it with the wings site! 😆 please?

[quote=seosamh77 ]Can I complain? Just stop it with the wings site! please?

Why?

Plenty of unionist or English biased media gets quoted.

There's bias and there's just making stuff up - one poster uses it as the main source of fiction and we get it regurgitated that way anyway. No one needs that guff twice.

What type of Rev is Stu anyway?

teamhurtmore - Member
There's bias and there's just making stuff up

So all the quotes from renowned economists on GERS figures being essentially meaningless on that link are fictitious?

BoardinBob - Member
seosamh77 » Can I complain? Just stop it with the wings site! please?
Why?

Plenty of unionist or English biased media gets quoted.

Cause it's largely one mans biased opinion, it's not a reliable news source.

He really should just talk shite on forums like the rest of us. Why he needs his own site is beyond me.

Interesting reading on that wings blog - even allowing for cherrypicking of data and quotes.

It basically reinforces what I said. GERS does not show the whole picture and the numbers are questionable. iScotland would have a deficit but how big we don't know but we can assume it is less than the unionists say it would be given the history over this.

Any deficit is also going to be seriously affected by the negotiations over assets and liabilities

seosamh77

did you read it? Quotes from a bunch of respected economists

nope, I read enough of the site last ref to know it's dubious as hell. Yes there will be some valid point, awful lot of shit too. Don't go near it on that basis. Not about to start now.

Admittedly I'm only dipping in and out here, but going back to Scotland's share of the assets - around £110 billion of the total ~£1.3 trillion assets, if armchair postulation is how it will be determined.

What have I missed here?