Scotland Indyref 2

It is funny isn't it duckman - loads of folk who don't live in Scotland telling us that we can't be independent.

[quote=kimbers ]As the brexiters have been insisting that there will eb aseemless and frictionless border between North and South Ireland for a while now at least the Scots know itd be possible after a hard Brexshit followed by Sexshit and EU sign up
Ah but according to Jambalaya that only works for Ireland because Ireland is, well, an island. Whereas the land mass currently known as Britain.....

Project fear? But then as you lot told us on the last thread; there was no such thing. Yet here you all are again.

You do like to make things up duckie dont you?

People will be arguing that, "others are saying we cant be independent" soon, when the debate is nothing of the sort. It SHOULD be about what is the best solution for maximising the interests of [s]Nicola Sturgeon[/s] the people of Scotland the the rUK.

English will be pretending their Scots next and start supporting their sporting teams etc... 😉

tjagain,
Yup all of those work for me 🙂
Perfectly fair, reflecting what I wanted to say exactly. Especially the last one, which you should read again because thats pretty much how I see YOUR point of view.

Except for the epicyclo reference where you seem to have removed the smiley face. The comment was in reference to this:

epicyclo >> As for mentioning their location, that was because they got all upset last time when I said they were irrelevants because they have no vote because they are not in Scotland.

Are you really suggesting that you have produced evidence that I am sneering, condescending, scot disliking and just possibly scot hating?

I'm tempted to call you a snowflake, but I fear you may melt in my laser like distain. For reference, I may be forthright or distainful, but I'm not the one throwing accusations of "dislike" and "hatred" based on nothing.

By all means argue for an independent Scotland, but stop trying to tell us it'll be coated in honey.

How about a realistic stab at what we won't be able to pay for.

Some assets can be sold, but its like the family silver, a temporary measure and only once.

PS There you go again with the "you don't live in Scotland" thing.
Watch it your Nationalism is showing.

PPS We've had the "you're rude" reason for not engaging, and now the "you're not in Scotland".. whatever next?

any chance of that break down of the assets and liabilities, so we can see where we stand?

Or you just happy to go with current figures of how scotland is being missmanaged "within the union"?

Or how about we look at GDP figures for countries that are all surrounding scotland with similar populations, who all seem to be doing better.

The union is not good for scotland.

Eat the pudding - your posts are sneering and condescending as that one is. If you don't understand this you will never understand why you get called out for your obvious bias

You want to shout others down but don't want to listen and your attitude stinks " snowflake" indeed.

Mind the beam in your eye

loads of folk who don't live in Scotland telling us that we can't be independent.

As opposed to loads of folk in Glasgow telling everyone else they have to leave the UK?

To summarise ETP - why won't you thick ignorant delusional fools engage with me?

...and Dundee ninfan, dont forget Dundee.

trying to regionalise 1 person 1 vote, where all votes are equal. 😆 I like it, top work lads!

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/brexit-makes-scottish-independence-much-more-economically-attractive

Brexit makes Scottish independence much more economically attractive

In 2014, a brighter future outside the rUK was patriotic wishful thinking. Now it is almost a certainty.

Simon Wren-Lewis is an economist at the Blavatnik School of Government and Merton College, University of Oxford.

trying to regionalise 1 person 1 vote, where all votes are equal. I like it, top work lads!

Yes, I wonder where we got the idea of suggesting that a national referendum in which one person, one vote, produced a clear majority, could actually be broken down into individual regions to pretend that there was no mandate for the democratically chosen outcome?

I wonder....

tjagain
I seem to recall that (on the basis of evidence offered in this thread) I've withdrawn my comments on the Scottish NHS and retracted a comment about set up costs for an iScotland that was a wild overestimate.
I also withdraw my comment about the SNP not wanting FFA (which I considered a compliment). Clearly they did want it but I can't for the life of me understand why.

So that's 3 times I've changed my mind or retracted based on evidence offered.

If I'm still disagreeing with you it might be because the evidence you produced is just not good enough.

Apart from the comment about epicyclo (which I explained) and calling you a snowflake (which think I can defend) I don't really make personal comments or get offended.

Try harder to make good arguments and I'll try not to parody them.

PS an economic article by Business in Scotland, is a pamphlet from an SNP sponsored pressure group trying to obfuscate. Not an attempt to clarify.

I see May has backtracked on her Glasgow speech

rather than repatriating powers back to Westminster, shes now suggesting that she might devolve some more

wee eck getting the various bits all mixed up AGAIN. This in an asset, no its not, yes it is, not its not, bloody English Tory bullies

The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way

I'm still waiting for the experts in economics to explain why a Scottish govt would be [i]"...won't be able to do as well as, say Malta, or New Zealand".[/i]

There must be some reason that they know about as to why a Scottish govt would not be able to handle the emergent circumstance of independence when everyone else has.

C'mon expose the hidden secret...

It is funny isn't it duckman - loads of folk who don't live in Scotland telling us that we can't be independent.

Of course you can....but it seems it ain't gonna work very well! Also where would it end, independence for Yorkshire, Surrey, Birmingham? But almost certainly, all the hot air will come from the Glasgow/Dundee mafia and the rest will hold their counsel.....until they vote to stay! So much more hot air and chips before then though. 😕

Brexit makes Scottish independence much more economically attractive
In 2014, a brighter future outside the rUK was patriotic wishful thinking. Now it is almost a certainty.

how much would it cost Nissan to Move their plant 60 miles North?

"New Zealand"

New Zealand's nice because of the low population and the climate. It's not an economic success story compared to the UK.

eat the pudding - I have no problem with disagreeing with you. I have a huge issue with the nasty sneering and condescending content of your posts.

Business[i] for[/i] Scotland is not an SNP pressure group. You need to stop thinking the SNP are the only organisation on the yes side and the only people who speak for yes.

Your basic lack of understanding of the political situation is unsurprising tho given the paucity of the information you get. Its one of the problems in this debate. Folk like you only get to see a part of the picture

epicylo,
I don't think anyone is saying that Scotland [i]can't[/i].
They're saying that at least in the medium term iScotland will have less money to spend on the things everyone (seems to) agree it would want (like strong welfare and a thriving NHS).

It would have to start with a lot of austerity, and grow its way out.

So who would pay the price and for how long?

How embarrassing is that map of countries that have become independent of the UK whilst people here bleat on about immigrants stealing our jobs/benefits

outofbreath - Member
New Zealand's nice because of the low population and the climate. It's not an economic success story compared to the UK.

Economic success story like the UK?

Any country with a govt crying poor to justify a Sanctions Genocide of the vulnerable, which cannot afford to put planes on its aircraft carriers, and which has massive areas of poverty is not an economic success story.

Or are you are just talking about the rich getting fat on the privatised assets of the state?

Any NZers care to comment?

But nonetheless, I notice they haven't considered ever asking to come back so obviously they prefer what they have.

How about some of the hundred or so other countries on the list...

tjagain,
Some information, in the nicest way possible :O) (really)
(with references)
BfS From [url= http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/business-for-scotland-where-are-they-now.html ]here[/url]

So of the seven Directors who were in place in November 2013 all but one resigned in December 2014. Since then one was elected as an SNP MP, one as an SNP MSP and one was a failed SNP list candidate.

Finally - for those thinking this apparent party affiliation may be just a series of concidences - the Herald revealed after the referendum that SNP Chief Executive Peter Murrell was personally providing guidance on the structure of the board and how they focused their activities.

Comment?

epicyclo - its a very good point and one yet unanswered. If all these small countries without Scotlands advantages are rich then why not Scotland?

outofbreath - Member

"New Zealand"

New Zealand's nice because of the low population and the climate. It's not an economic success story compared to the UK.

How does it compare on standard/satisfaction of life? Not everything comes down to money. Saudi Arabia is an economic success story in comparison. I know where I'd prefer to live.

"But nonetheless, I notice they haven't considered ever asking to come back so obviously they prefer what they have."

I'm not saying the UK is better than NZ, just that it has a bigger GDP.

Obviously a lower population and good climate are unbeatable advantages that outweigh wealth.

It would have to start with a lot of austerity, and grow its way out.

Nice to see Project Fear making a comeback

You do like to make things up duckie dont you?

Well strictly speaking no; you are making them up(as mentioned by Gordi a few posts above) I'm just repeating them...In an internet-pointing-and-laughing-style.

oh good, making up and sneering - how misty is the mirror? "It wasn't me miss, it was Gordon who did it" 😉

At least you are not someone who claimed that 10% of the scottish population are members of the SNP and then berates non-believers with jibes like a "basic lack of understanding". Brilliant 😉

You dont need to make it up - its all here, in all its glory!

Yes BoardinBob.. I'm just trying to scare you.
Scotland deficit is all smoke and mirrors.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/24/scottish-finances-worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit ]grauniad article[/url]

@thm Mine's perfectly clear thanks

The Net Assets of the Bank of England according to its accounts are £4 billion, the Houses of Parliament are probably a liability in view of the repair costs, but the general rule on split is that physical asset got to the country where they are located so we get Westminster and you get the Tax Collection Office in Cumbernauld

Assetts / liabilities are easy. Don't gives us a fair share of the assetts we take none of the debt. Simples.

How much will england pay to keep the subs on the clyde?

You keep Edinburgh Castle we keep Westminster. Pretty simple.

We can manage the debt on our own if necessary. The damage to an iS for not talking a share would be astronomical.

You are quite right there may be a rental agreement for the facilities on the Clyde or we may just deide to move the base elsewhere if that looks more appealing. The subs by the way are not English, they are the UK's armed forces. Bit of a slip there TJ.

ETP your number for iS infrastructure creation may be too high but the SNP number was fantastically low. IMO the cost would be closer to your number than theirs.

@ km79

To summarise ETP - why won't you thick ignorant delusional fools engage with me?

Just noticed this.. it's like looking in a mirror.. how to you know me so well 🙂

Can you show me where you cut and pasted that from?

If it's just a summary I'd prefer something like
"Show me the money?"

we get Westminster and you get the Tax Collection Office in Cumbernauld

What about Balmoral?

Her Maj can't survive with just Sandringham/windsor as her country pads !

As for getting bogged down in GDP, liabilities, assets...
The answer is obvious

The SNP can write whatever numbers they like on a big red bus, it'll frame the debate and hand them victory, no matter that it's a lie.*

We've been assured this is the proper wxsay to win a referendum.

*TBF any of May's recent hypocrisy laden quotes about playing politics, tunnel vision or divisive referendums or her woefully? misjudged speech in Glasgow 2 weeks ago could go up there.

]

Fair enough I'm happy with that

Balmoral belongs to the Queen not the state - Holyrood would go to Scotland.

We don't want the subs. apparently there is nowhere else for them to go. I think we might just have you over a barrel on that one and I wonder what the rental will be.

You keep Edinburgh Castle we keep Westminster. Pretty simple.

Nope - Edinburgh castle belongs to Scotland, Westminster belongs to the UK

[img] :large[/img]

outofbreath - Member
"But nonetheless, I notice they haven't considered ever asking to come back so obviously they prefer what they have."

I'm not saying the UK is better than NZ, just that it has a bigger GDP.

Obviously a lower population and good climate are unbeatable advantages that outweigh wealth.

How about the hundred or so other countries that are independent?...

None of them have come back, so obviously they think it was a good move.

scotroutes - Member

I think it's mental that people would think Europeans will be hostile to scotland remaining within the EU, or even that they would make it difficult if we had to reply. The Europeans don't even want rUK to leave, why would they be hostile to scotland, it's nonsensical now and it was nonsensical last time.