All the votes for councils have an effect and the list vote for Holyrood always does as does European elections. the only wasted votes are those for westminster. If the lib dems had any support in Scotland then they would get seats. Trouble is they lied and lied again, sucked up to the tories then you had Carmichael with his admitted lies.
this is why the lib dems are toast.
Scotland runs on proportional electoral systems Lib dems get exactly the seats in line with their votes
at the pudding - you have been told repeatedly that the real picture while bad is not a ten million deficit every year but you insist on the ridiculous 10 billion figure
[quote=tjagain ]Eat ther pudding - you keep banging on about a ten billion deficit. You have been told numerous times why this is not so but you won't listen
Only with hand wavy "we'll fix it" comments - or are you disputing the GERS figures?
What is ridiculous about the official figures?
"capitalist excuse number 1"
I gave you and example that pre-dated capitalism and you didn't like that either!
It makes no odds because once you accept that the economic situation can improve to allow better rights, you've lost the debate, because you've accepted appropriate rights can change
(Unless you want to claim economies improve, but never, ever decline.)
Aracer - they do not show the whole situation - GERS is not the total income and expenditure, does not show cross border payments, does not allow for profits earning in Scotland but reported in England does not show UK strategic spending amongst many other things.
Yes we would have a deficit, yes it would not be 10 billion, yes it would be manageable and yes an independent scotland could grow its economy more without the dead hand of england
Yes we would have a deficit, yes it would not be 10 billion, yes it would be manageable and yes an independent scotland could grow its economy more without the dead hand of england
Fortunately for the more rationally minded people of your country.......it'll never happen!
I've been told have I?
Cheers for that. and I await the link to a serious treatment of Scottish economics that reinforces me being 'telt' 🙂
As I've asked you before.. If this clear evidence exists why doesn't St Nic kick her stats dept. up the arse?
Yes we would have a deficit, yes it would not be 10 billion
You are absolutely correct, it wouldn't be £10 billion. The 2016 figure is actually just shy of £15 billion.
The allocation of tax is a pretty good approximation of how profits would be allocated under international tax principles.
They are "estimates" under "current constitutional arrangements".
They aren't the whole picture.
eat the pudding - you wonder why people call you out when your posts have such a disdainful and sneering tone
Too wee, too skint, to fearty seems to be your line
They aren't the whole picture.
So enlighten us, at present the picture presented reassembles the one in "Art"
Aracer - mefty / eat the pudding
Here is some alternative analysis showing a very different picture with a load of links to follow. Before the oil price drop tho but shows a very different set of figures and the scottish Government is working on the numbers right now without any oil at all
mefty - Member
They aren't the whole picture.
So enlighten us, at present the picture presented reassembles the one in "Art"
Show us a full break down for uk assets and liabilities and how those negotiations turn out and they we will be able to start see the whole picture.
Or can you look into your Chrystal ball and tell us how an independent Scottish government will budget their tax and spend?
I agree an unlikely task. Which I am fairly open about.
the GERS figures are purely descriptive of how scotland's financies look "within the union". I agree, they could be better, much better.
tjagain, surely you know how frustrating it is when people claim information exists (against all evidence) and then fail to produce evidence themselves?
So, still [citation required] for your claim about the deficit.
As a start heres an [url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/24/scottish-finances-worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit ]article[/url] where St Nic is quoted screaming at the error in the figures her stats dept produced in 2016.
Oh no, actually she completely accepts them and tries to spin them (and fails).
Waiting... (but not distainfully if that helps 🙂
PS saying that "the GERS figure don't apply to an independent Scotland" is a bit like saying "my height today bears no relation to my height tomorrow" .. some things don't change fast.
EDIT PS "Business for Scotland" the SNP front? Don't make me laugh. Have a look at [url= http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/who-do-business-for-scotland-represent.html ]the[/url].
You do realise that you're trying to rewrite a reality that Nichola Sturgeon actually accepts don't you?
God, how long is it 'til the next referendum - 2020?
How much BS can we take?
Several pages ago, one Nat claimed IIRC that a left of centre/green coalition was what was needed. How is it doing so far? Ok, refused to raise taxes, and lots of bills passed I'm sure.... 🙂
Joe - exclusive - you have 32 regions/councils (whatever the term) IIRC. The exclusive club included 4 of the 32 that voted YES last time. That makes the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers look inclusive (although sad to see them bending over to being rogered by HSBC's demands today)
aye but the vast majority we also above 40% for yes. As you well know. A referendum vote is 1 person 1 vote. Council regions are irrelevant, no matter how you like to spin it.Joe - exclusive - you have 32 regions/councils (whatever the term) IIRC. The exclusive club included 4 of the 32 that voted YES last time.
eat the pudding - you simply are not listening, don't want to hear and your aggressive and condescending tone of your posts is very off putting
I have told you why the Gers figures do not tell the whole story. You don't want to think about it you simply want to continue your "too wee, too skint, too feart line
It includes debt repayments for debts not incurred in scotland - and the numbers around this will not be known until the negotiations are complete. It includes no value for the UK assets of which scotland owns a share - how much is the bank of england and the houses of parliament worth? Want us to take a share of the debt we get a share of the assetts
It does not include company profits raised in scotland but reported in london
It does not include cross border stuff like electricity
There are many other flaws with the Gers figures that mean they do not tell the whole story
I wonder how the Russian cash and cyber power is going to be used.....
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15153671.Nato__Independent_Scotland_could_be_out_in_cold/?ref=rss
Here's a list of the countries that have had independence from the UK. None of them wish to return to UK rule despite prognostications of doom by UK economic experts for many of them at the time.
Why should we believe UK doom sayers now? Or perhaps they can explain why our system of govt is so inferior or intellectually challenged that we won't be able to do as well as, say Malta, or New Zealand.
.
.
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It includes no value for the UK assets of which scotland owns a share - how much is the bank of england and the houses of parliament worth? Want us to take a share of the debt we get a share of the assetts
I didn't realise you wanted to pay for the decommissioning of Sellafield etc as part of the settlement. Assets come with liabilities.
tjagain,
Please don't join seosamh77 in accusing me of disliking scots, thats genuinely all in your head.
Maybe to help you understand my "tone"...
If I was recommending 10-14Bn of conservative government cuts in Scotland. (equivalent to more than the cash spent on the Scottish NHS), and then pointing to the "conservative businessmans association" for evidence that it wouldn't matter. And pointing out that things would actually be better because reasons!!!
What tone would you adopt with me?
Thats genuinely (at least a wee bit) like what a lot of you are doing, but you don't see it because its wrapped in flag.
big_n_daft - Member
I didn't realise you wanted to pay for the decommissioning of Sellafield etc as part of the settlement. Assets come with liabilities.
Aye, but you're supposed to have more assets than liabilities.
Are you saying the UK's balance of assets is less than its liabilities?
Sounds like a good reason to escape from incompetent UK governance.
It is Joe and we know how many voted NO and how many voted REMAIN don't we? Not that anyone has been spinning this yet. No words like "overwhelming' and the like 🙂
Anyway, save you powder. Its going to be a long epic before the BS is over. We are having a Hard Brexshit in the meantime dont-you-know!!
eat the pudding - its how your posts come over - sneering and condescending with unpleasant pejorative usage to describe anyone on the independence side. Its not in my head its how you sound. Its really quite naswty in tone and why you are being called out on it. Its nothing to do with being wrapped in a flag - thats another sneer from you. I am no blood and soil nationalist
There is a deficit yes. Its not ten billion and its only in this unusual economic times. for almost all of the last 30 years scotland has been in surplus.
It includes no value for the UK assets of which scotland owns a share - how much is the bank of england and the houses of parliament worth? Want us to take a share of the debt we get a share of the assetts
I didn't realise you wanted to pay for the decommissioning of Sellafield etc as part of the settlement. Assets come with liabilities.
It's these kind of debates that make me think an impasse could be reached that prevents Scotland ever leaving. Ditto, UK leaving the EU.
One side says we we can't practically leave without X and the other side just says no, we don't accept that.
What happens then? Leave anyway and subsequently chase it through the courts? What if it's a deal dealbreakingly large sum?
All the votes for councils have an effect and the list vote for Holyrood always does
No they don't always matter (unless you count a vote that doesn't get anyone elected an important one).
If we had full PR (more like the German system) then it would be different but we don't. Our PR is quite limited and does lead to regionally irrelevant votes. Far less so than FPTP, but it still happens. (and yes, I do know that the Scottish Executive did not select its own voting system).
<GERS> does not allow for profits earning in Scotland but reported in England
Largely, it does. If you take some time to read the GERS methodology, it goes a long way to try and fairly estimate the Scottish contribution. According to the SNP, GERS is an authoritative guide to Scotland's finances. The so-called white paper proposed finances for an independent Scotland based very much on GERS.
Long term, we would be a long way from GERS. For the first couple of years in a newly independent country, I don't think things could look much better than GERS. It isn't like the first day of independence will start with a blank sheet of paper - "so, now we are a sovereign nation, what shall we do about taxes and spening and stuff?"
Epic - its called a balance sheet for good reason!!
But looking forward to wee eck getting the various bits all mixed up AGAIN. This in an asset, no its not, yes it is, not its not, bloody English Tory bullies, no still not.....
ETP - repeat, youse musnt disagree with the narrative however false it is. Repeat x100 or you will have no pudding at all. Dissent is - to use our new European friends term - VERBOTEN
Assetts / liabilities are easy. Don't gives us a fair share of the assetts we take none of the debt. Simples.
How much will england pay to keep the subs on the clyde?
Why should we believe UK doom sayers now? Or perhaps they can explain why our system of govt is so inferior or intellectually challenged that we won't be able to do as well as, say Malta, or New Zealand.
That's not the argument, rUK is just disappointed that fellow members of the UK see an opportunity to dump the rest of us whilst lecturing that everything bad from the last 300 years is due to others and everything great was them. The lack of perspective beyond the narrow aims of dumping the rUK as to their contribution to the whole is disappointing and dismaying. Yet lots of people in the rUK will just try and carry on despite all the snide and divisive commentary that going to be enjoyed for the next two years as we quite like the UK and can see a bright future together despite the ups and downs and the imperfections of the system
Don't gives us a fair share of the assetts we take none of the debt.
You can have Sellafield as you clearly think there aren't any liabilities associated with it
How much will england pay to keep the subs on the clyde?
zero, you have a no nukes policy so it moves south or gets [s]binned [/s] negotiated away
The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way. Control the message, shut down dissent, the ends justify the means. We will never give up whatever the results of the votes....
Remember EtP, if you present the obvious case for why being part of the Union together with high levels of devolved power is in the best interests of the Scottish people then you are automatically (sic) using the so-called: "too wee, too skint, too feart"line - its an old cliche for stamping out common sense. Fortunately, canny folk saw through it last time.
Dissent ist Verboten
PS tjagain,
You have accused me (along with seosamh77) of disliking or hating scots and failed to produce any evidence the exists outside your own head (or I guess you could presumably just have me banned for racism, which should be pretty easy with all the evidence lying about on the forum, No?)
From now on I'm going to take accusations of hatred and dislike to mean
"I have searched the whole of the internet for evidence of the truth of things in my head, but have none."
big_n_daft - Member
I wonder how the Russian cash and cyber power is going to be used.....
Ah, the recycling of the you won't get into NATO threat.
There's many Scots who would be quite happy not to be a part of NATO, so that's not a show stopper. The SNP lost a lot of support when it removed opposition to NATO membership from its policy.
But it seems to me that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation would be somewhat lacking in strategic foresight if it excluded the country whose waters comprise a huge chunk of the North Atlantic approaches to Europe.
If we really needed a big friend there's probably enough socialists in Scotland that Russia would be invited to fill the gap.
Yeah, that's bullshit, but so is the politically motivated at the behest of Westminster statement of the NATO head. After all, why did he feel the need to make that political statement at this point? He was obviously prompted.
eat the pudding - I have told you - want me to quote some bits at you. Its the sneering and condescending tone in which you post.
Just a few examples
Will iScotland have its own Maths?
epicyclo.. so you're trying to create annoyance?
St Nic
they are nothing to do with the SNP the SNP is only a part of the independence movementEDIT PS "Business for Scotland" the SNP front? Don't make me laugh.
quite wrong as you were told later onUntil they realised (had it explained by someone with a bit of maths) what the results would be, and quietly accepted Barnett (pooling and sharing).
-2Bn temporary westmonster austerity = work of Satan leading to food banks and suicides
-10Bn ongoing SNP austerity = a satisfying challenge for a brave young nation.
The snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way. Control the message, shut down dissent, the ends justify the means.
that isnt entirely true, now
the BBC HYS talkback is overflowing with petty insulting comments about Sturgeon, SNP and scotland, and they have a pretty heavy moderation, gop on FB if you fancy some really nasty stuff
and plenty on here love denigrating sturgeon, salmond, 'jocks' etc etc
the divisveness has only been stoked by the low points of the EU referendum, people have become more polarised and less inhibited about their bearing nationalist jingoism
teamhurtmore - MemberThe snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way.
Hahaha! 😆
Coming from you as well! Oh my.
Yes, this will be a bitter and pointless debate kimbers * - where's Richard Osman when you need him?
Alexander Armstrong sounds good and Scottish, but IIRC he was a Northumberland lad... 🙂
It was awful before but emboldened by Brexshit and Trump, the lies will be even more outrageous this time. We can see this from the off - we are heading for a HARD BREXSHIT - before we have even started.
Tell me, if we hold this referendum, and you losw, then how long will it be before you are back demanding another one?
"This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, well, you know, maybe twice, or maybe even three times if we have to, but definitely no more than that, unless something changes..."
ninfan - MemberTell me, if we hold this referendum, and you losw, then how long will it be before you are back demanding another one?
Make up your mind, I thought no-one wanted this one?
Probably when a party puts the conditions for one into their manifesto and wins enough votes to enact it when those conditions are met?
niunfan - not until something significant happens and not for a long time
teamhurtmore - MemberThe snideness and divisiveness and attempts to shut people down - all come one way. Control the message, shut down dissent, the ends justify the means
Project fear? But then as you lot told us on the last thread; there was no such thing. Yet here you all are again.
and not for a long time
I'm getting a sense of deja vu 😉
big_n_daft - Member
Assets come with liabilities.
No shit sherlock.
As the brexiters have been insisting that there will be a 'seemless and frictionless' border between North and South Ireland for a while now at least the Scots know itd be possible between Scotland and dUK after a hard Brexshit followed by Sexshit and EU sign up
big_n_daft - Member
That's not the argument, rUK is just disappointed that fellow members of the UK see an opportunity to dump the rest of us...
It's not about dumping you, it's about getting value for our votes.
Maybe you should watch Westminster when a Scottish issue is being raised and watch the braying howling reactions from the govt benches. Then we get outvoted every time.
The reality is that Scotland has not got the numbers to have effective representation in Westminster.
The SNP are very good at making noises and being diverting, but they would be as well to emulate Sinn Feinn and simply not turn up for all the good it does. Why on earth they have not taken Margaret Thatcher's advice beats me.
And if you care to look at UK's other parts, Northern Ireland and Wales, you'll see they are making noises about getting out of the relationship too. That doesn't happen when people are feeling they're getting a fair go.
Independence is the only answer.
