It's a price worth paying for a different political mind set, the very different natures of westminster and holyrood tell you that'll it'll be vastly different.
Will it be for the better, in some ways yes, in some ways no. You can't really put a catch all good or bad to it in it's entirety.
I'm for an independent currency, can't say I know all the ins and outs of that, but I'm sure I'll acquaint myself with them over the years to come. I'm also for it, whether it makes us a little worse or a little better off initially.
Excellent, at least you have reached the starting point. But dont get cold waiting for your chosen representatives to catch up. They remain (sorry) a long way behind you. #SDBMB
It's a price worth paying for a different political mind set, the very different natures of westminster and holyrood tell you that'll it'll be vastly different.
Even if the policies tell you the opposite.
Eat the pudding - even now the powers the scottish government have over taxes are so limited
PSA: treat with caution
As I've mentioned many time thm, I'm prepared to wait for them to catch up. I'm not calling for a referendum tomorrow. I think internally things in Scotland do need to change.
None more so, than something verging on consensus(60%+), before we jump.
teamhurtmore - Member
It's a price worth paying for a different political mind set, the very different natures of westminster and holyrood tell you that'll it'll be vastly different.
Even if the policies tell you the opposite.
Policies are temporary.
Good you are wrapped up warm then! you are a canny fellow!
seosamh77
That puts you in the same company as Sturgeon 😉
Personally I'd like to see higher than 60% majority for constitutional change so its clear its the settled will of the people
I have always said that any party in government for more than 10 years tends to lose its way. The SNP might be hitting that barrier but show no real signs of it yet really and they are running a cautious and competent government and whether you agree with Sturgeon or not its clear that she is the only significant politician in the UK with a consistent and logically and morally sound position on the EU.
THM [i]still[/i]replying to me? I don't see your posts THM remember. You are shouting in an empty room.
That puts you in the same company as Sturgeon
May be, but her nanny state approach to politics takes me right back out of her company. 😉
@tjagain "even now the powers the scottish government have over taxes are so limited and can raise so little money ( cos the costs would be enormous in relation to the amounts raised) and that the actions the SNP would really like to take are not within their remit then I for one do not believe they should be used."
Really? despite the fact that they refused to sign off on the powers offered until they were sure that Barnett would continue and the block grant would not be cut as a result of changes north of the border. Remarkable.
@tjagain again "cautious and competent government"
Is that a buffed up reference to the fact that they have brought forward no new legislation since the Scottish elections?
Or the fact that their unchanging (actually "written in stone") further education policies have dramatically cut access for poorer students.
Or the fact that they are in the process of [i]no longer carrying out[/i] the school tests which have embarassed them recently instead of trying to improve standards so that the results are not embarassing?
They have an impressive record of supressing dissent in their own ranks, and blaming others for their shortcomings, making pointed remarks at and about press organisations and journalists that would make Erdogan blush.
But competent? Pulease.
They are still playing the "radical" "anti-establishment" "we need change" tune despite the fact that they:
-reject every opportunity to be radical,
-forget that they ARE now the establishment, and
-the changes they [i]have[/i] made have often made things worse.
They have a fanatical devotion to one thing, they think about it all the time and ignore or spin every fact to make that thing look like the ultimate solution.
They probably even go to sleep stroking it (which is fine in the privacy of your own home), but thankfully it looks like people are getting tired of them waving it in our faces.
What you don't understand is I am not an SNP voter nor am I an ideological nationalist. I think the previous SNP administration made some huge blunders. I have seen none under sturgeon.
I am a political geek and a green. I watch read learn and listen to a wide range of sources not just the nationalist press. this gives me the ability to see things in the round not just in the mirror of folk who share my views
and yes - the tax raising powers they have are virtually useless, can only raise very little money and cannot be used in the way the SNP would like. Of course they were right to ensure that if they raised taxes it would not come off the block grant - a basic principle and many influential tories wee calling for the block grant to be adjusted if the scottish government raised more money
compared to the clusterflip that is this tory government and the shambles that is Labour both north and south of the Border then yes they are competent. I like a cautious government - they do less harm.
UK politicians I respect? Sturgeon is top of the list followed by Davidson. I am disappointed with the greens we have in government - shown to be rather amateurish Can't think of anyone on the front benches in Westminster I have any time for at all.
EtP well said!
Tax!! What do they believe? Flip flop on the MRT for highest earners. Argue for aggressive competition on corporation tax to compete against rUK etc
Perhaps its a good job they are bad at passing legislation.
Perhaps its a good job they are bad at passing legislation.
22 went through in 2016 alone. More than any other year so far. The Programme for Government was met for 2015-2016. Why wouldn't it be met for 2016-2017?
I am a political geek and a green.
Have you read their agricultural policies?
Do you agree with them?
Lets see - slow start so far but may be a negative split or should I say positive split in this case
#SDBMB
You're full of shite THM. #FUD
Well its important to fit in km, thank you
{how many bills passed under the new gov - remind us?]
How long is there still left? This is a weak dig even for a Tory.
Nicely put km79.
It really is astonishing how many folk on this thread pontificate about Scotlands politics without even a glimmer of understanding
its a prerequisite
Out of interest what is wee nippy's log in?
It really is astonishing how many folk on this thread pontificate about Scotlands politics without even a glimmer of understanding
Or a vote!
Reform Scotland concluded that there would need to be much greater devolution of both tax and welfare before the Scottish Government could use either effectively. I'll post the link later.
As for the contracts for ships, David Cameron originally promised, or should that be vowed there would be 13 ships built on the Clyde now turns out to be 8.
As for the contracts for ships, David Cameron originally promised, or should that be vowed there would be 13 ships built on the Clyde now turns out to be 8.
Do you want to increase defence spending to build more?
Its just another example of broken promises. One of many.
Big and daft - do you live in Scotland?
Its just another example of broken promises. One of many.
So do you want to increase defence spending to build more to keep the "promise"?
Still waiting for you to state whether you sign up to the Green Party agricultural policies?????
Green Party agricultural policies?
Which are? The 2016 manifesto is light on specific details, just a set of principles which don't look that controversial.
..
Actually since this is a thread about Scottish politics I read the Scottish Greens website and manifesto.
Edit: I will read your edit later.
So do you live in Scotland Big and daft? It seems to me the most vehemently anti SNP voices on this page are those with the least knowledge
I said I was a green not a Green - there is a difference. Ie philosophically green not allied to the party. I vote in a variety of ways depending on circumstances. There is no political party I agree with in its entirety.
[url= https://reformscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Reform-Scotland-Scotlands-new-powers-March-2016.pdf ]Scotlands new tax and benefits powers are not sufficient[/url]
"Do you want to increase defence spending to build more?" Surely David should have known how many ships the UK could afford to build when he made the vow . If Scotland was independent then we could make a decision on defence spending but since we're not independent the Tory government have made the decision
teamhurtmore - Member
...and then you will have achieved your goal of independence subjegating yourselves to an even mightier body that W'ster.
Subjugation? Not when you can leave without their permission.
Scotland is a de facto colony of Westminster.
As a member of the EU it would be in an entirely different relationship.
If Scotland was independent then we could make a decision on defence spending
Is this the fantasy land Scotland where you can spend more on defence despite that 14.8bn gap? Or can we discuss the real world where in an independent Scotland rather less than 8 new ships would be being built. TBH cutting defence spending is one of the more sensible suggestions for the deficit problem, even if it wouldn't go very far towards solving it. But you can't have it both ways and rely on the powers of independence allowing you to do mutually contradictory things.
epicyclo - Member
teamhurtmore - Member
...and then you will have achieved your goal of independence subjegating yourselves to an even mightier body that W'ster.
Subjugation? Not when you can leave without their permission.Scotland is a de facto colony of Westminster.
As a member of the EU it would be in an entirely different relationship.
Scotland isn't a colony of the UK, it is the UK. With out Scotland you don't get rUK, you get England & Wales, with a wee bit of Ireland(The latter highly doubtful imo).
If you understand that, it goes some way to understanding the hostility you face on the question.
Big and daft? Care to answer about where you live? the reason I ask is all your knowledge of Scottish politics seems to come from English newspapers
@aracer no this is the normal land where a country's defence policy is decided on by people who live in that country. It's normality throughout much of the world.
Are you deliberately ignoring the question of where the money is coming from? I don't think anybody is confused about whether an independent country can control it's own defence policy - yet no country which has to balance the books has total freedom. This is an economic point not a question of whether you have control of things.
[quote=seosamh77 ]I doubt the veracity of the figures, but lets go with them, a vague guess is as close as anyone is going to get
You're better than that, Joe - they're the Scottish government's figures and all the big spend items are for things which are devolved, so I'd hope they have good records of what they're actually spending. Far from being a guess.
But it also points out that under the uk, scotland isn't being managed properly, so... not exactly something to be bigging up, when it's yourselves that have been holding the purse strings for the last 300 years. If you want to dictate finance, you take the blame when the numbers don't tally.
You can't make that conclusion at all. Currently "Scotland isn't being managed properly" by spending rather more per capita on all sorts of nice things. Which is fine, because it's more expensive doing some stuff in Scotland and for most of the last 40 years (thanks TJ 😉 ) it's "not been managed properly" by paying for that with oil money. Now it's being funded by the rest of the UK, which is also fine. This is a question of deficit - clearly when you're independent then you have full control of all the things which affect the deficit, so you can't blame previous UK governments at all if it's not possible to balance the books.
aracer I was deliberately ignoring that point because we could then address the issues you raise. We would have to. Currently UK governments can get away with poor decisions where their policies adversely affect Scotland as they don't need to succeed in Scotland to win at Westminster. I know Labour is less likely than the tories to manage a win based on England and Wales only, but all I can say is don't look for a Labour revival in Scotland anytime soon, perhaps the 2026 Scottish parliament election if there's still a Scottish labour party then.
clearly when you're independent then you have full control of all the things which affect the deficit, so you can't blame previous UK governments at all if it's not possible to balance the books.
well, no shit, but until we do, you get the blame for it.
[quote=gordimhor ]aracer I was deliberately ignoring that point because we could then address the issues you raise.
That point was the issue I raised 🙄
[quote=seosamh77 ]well, no shit, but until we do, you get the blame for it.
The blame for what exactly?
for continually telling us scotland is ****ed.
Few sair heids this morning Gents? 🙂
for continually telling us scotland is ****.
I hope/doubt that this is the case as I am coming up for a few days soon, and that would be a terrible waste of time and money!
Don't do your glorious country down Joe, leave that to your politicians and their whining. It's a great place IMO.
#SDBMB
Or a vote!
Many Scot's here don't have a vote as they are enjoying the economic benefits of living in England.
The indy referendum allowed everyone over 16 living in Scotland to vote, unlike the EU referendum which excluded one large group living in the UK from voting.
