Scotland Indyref 2

big_n_daft - Member
The theme of the plucky Scot trying to reach a utopia denied by the
English (jack)boot
is patently untrue

I don't disagree with that statement at all. I don't subscribe to those views. I'm well aware lots of scots have been and are willing participants in the union.

We'll agree there, but if that comes from the project of "complete the privatisation agenda" that we're well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i'll be astounded.

When are the Scottish Government nationalising GP practices?

What new privatisation has been announced post Brexit?

Joe I fear that you may be among those who "may" have been hoodwinked.

Your view: not a blue print

The BoD view

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

QED. Thank you.

big_n_daft - Member
We'll agree there, but if that comes from the project of "complete the privatisation agenda" that we're well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i'll be astounded.
When are the Scottish Government nationalising GP practices?

What new privatisation has been announced post Brexit?

I can only answer those questions in 10 or 15 years in the aftermath. I'm not privvy to plans.

But i'm sure on one thing, and that's that the people taking advantage of brexit, and the law making ability, won't be doing it for the common good.

teamhurtmore - Member
Joe I fear that you may be among those who "may" have been hoodwinked.

Your view: not a blue print

The BoD view

This guide lays out how [b]we [/b]can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

we = SNP. ie it's their manifesto.

Do you believe that it was a SNP document?

Did you consider the part of the sentence beyond the word we and what is may represent?

teamhurtmore - Member
Do you believe that it was a SNP document?

Did you consider the part of the sentence beyond the word we and what is may represent?

One thing this thread has shown me is really how unpleasant some unionists are with their sneering and condescension which allied to ignorance is a very nasty stance indeed.

Can you reword that?

No need, we both know what a blue print is and we both can read the introduction to the BoD.

teamhurtmore - Member
Can you reword that?
No need, we both know what a blue print is and we both can read the introduction to the BoD.

Any Scottish government post IS, barring a majority SNP government, would not beholden to the "BoD". To claim it would be is incredibly disingenuous.

Plus even at that, claiming anyone beholden to something written in 2014, forever, is nonsense.

One thing this thread has shown me is really how unpleasant some unionists are with their sneering and condescension which allied to ignorance is a very nasty stance indeed.

Ach, we've got our share of zoomers, I don't think we should be getting on our high horses.

It's the usual story, you only ever remember the total ****s.

I still can't figure out how many Scottish Unionists there actually are on here. A lot of the most vocal opposition to independence seems to be coming from folk living outside of Scotland.

Of all the daftness I've seen on STW the notion that TMH want's Scotland to remain part of the UK as otherwise the UK's standing in the world would be diminished is the daftest by far.

If not for Brexit the SNP would have some other excuse for Indy Ref 2 to be the main agenda or otherwise their loss 55/45, a reduced Holyrood majority and their poor track record of delivery of the promised utopia whilst in Government would be centre stage.

Aye indeed there are a few zoomers around but nowhere have I seen such unpleasantness allied to ignorance from the nationalist side.

I don't think there are any scots arguing the unionist cause on here - a couple of neutrals maybe.

What really gets to me is the total lack of understanding shown by some for example the confusion between SNP policy and the future direction of scotland. The sheer willful blindness to the fact many of us want to do things differently up here and the sneering condescension. The inability to understand that some of us value other things than money Fortunatly I only see THMs post when someone quotes them

jambalaya - Member
Of all the daftness I've seen on STW the notion that TMH want's Scotland to remain part of the UK as otherwise the UK's standing in the world would be diminished is the daftest by far.

So the "better together" line was a lie? 😆

Jamba - what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

We were told that if we left the UK we would have no more influence on world affairs than Finland - we all looked at each other and said " sounds about right"

Any Scottish government post IS, barring a majority SNP government, would not beholden to the "BoD". To claim it would be is incredibly disingenuous. Plus even at that, claiming anyone beholden to something written in 2014, forever, is nonsense.

All very interesting but not really relevant.

You claim that the BoD was not a blueprint. The SNP/Scottish Government (you decide) stated the opposite and were quite explicit - we can all read what they said.

[b]This guide lays out[/b] how we can [b]complete[/b] Scotland’s journey to home rule and [b]become a fully independent country.[/b]

looks like a blue print, smells like a blue print, sounds like a blue print - but it isnt one, its a manefesto!!

So perhaps in the end, we agree. The document - including the sentence stating that is was indeed a guide/blueprint - was simple another lie to accompany much of the rest of the content. I am glad that square has been circled. We can retire in agreement 😉

The SNP/Scottish Government (you decide) stated the opposite and were quite explicit - we can all read what they said.

They could be explicit as they liked. Still doesn't make it a blueprint.

Can you show me the law they passed saying they must follow that book to the letter? ([i][b][u]If[/u][/b][/i] they gained power post IS).

In reality the "BoD" was a campaign tool, nothing more. And expensive one yes, but no different to the nonsense that fall through your door at every election/referendum.

So, yes, perhaps we do agree. (you know if no fan of the SNP anyhow.)

Of course not.

But we agree then - the words they used including...

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

...were not to be believed or taken at face value. It was indeed a book of false dreams with no legal or factual basis. Bravo!

Sleep well - I have a bloody student essay to review now 🙁

btw the word "guide" can be interpreted a few ways. You're only allowing one definition. Quelle suprise, yet more deceit from yourself, need to watch that old chap, in danger of becoming a habit you may struggle to shake! 😆

I'm pretty sure there was to be an election prior to actual independence to allow different manifestos to be produced and for people to chose. I might just have imagined that though and I can't be arsed to Google.

There was KM - because of the timing. this is another issue the unionists her don't get.

Joe - c'mon you are above swerving!! Dont debase yourself to the level of others 😉

The number of pages and level of pretend detail make it very clear what type of guide they pretended it to be. An alternative would not have extended beyond a page or two. Need to watch that young man, in danger of becoming a habit. Leave that to others who have never attempted to shake it.

Still doesn't negate the fact that anything in it's pages relied on subsequent governments implementing them. A highly unlikely scenario. You'd need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise. Many are but unfortunately that's what politics thrives on, the ignorance of the masses.

teamhurtmore - Member
Joe - c'mon you are above swerving!! Dont debase yourself to the level of others

btw not body swerving at all, i just reckon the use of the word "guide", by the SNP lawyers, would have been deliberate due to it's ambiguity.

Still doesn't negate the fact that anything in it's pages relied on subsequent governments implementing them. A highly unlikely scenario.

Agreed - the plans were implausible. The blue print couldnt be implement by design.

Still hasn't stopped folk repeating the falsehoods. I think the correct term for that is "ignorance" but it seems a little unkind. Hoodwinked is more forgiving!!

btw not body swerving at all, i just reckon the use of the word "guide", by the SNP lawyers, would have been deliberate due to it's ambiguity.

"No really". 😉 As above, the page count indicates otherwise.

You'd need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise.

I have already noted yS place at the birthplace of modern post truth politics. We agree again.

teamhurtmore - Member

You'd need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise.
I have already noted yS place at the birthplace of modern post truth politics. We agree again.

A lot of the most vocal opposition to independence seems to be coming from folk living outside of Scotland.

To misquote Ben from earlier Bruce:

Here's a radical thought - maybe I argued against [s]voted for [/s]independence because I thought it would be a good thing for everyone in Scotland, not me personally?

Not everyone does it for self-interest!! [thanks ben 😉 ]

bullshit is timeless and is more or less a constant!

Agreed which is why indy threads are comedy gold - never fail to deliver. A constant flow...

(phew essay review done, thx for the company/distraction. More entertaining than the essay!}

Don't really see it as any different to UK politics tbh, well i do, i think it's slightly less sophisticated. But i guess you need to fight bullshit (better together) with bullshit.

We may not always agree, but fun as always! 😉 glad to be a distraction!

Don't really see it as any different to UK politics tbh, well i do, i think it's slightly less sophisticated.

and/or more deliberately deceitful.

We may not always agree, but fun as always!

Indeed. A demain!!

if you are struggling to sleep. open up the BoD at pages xvi-xviii and then type "this is not a blueprint" with a straight face 😉

here's a teaser

Part four sets out the timescale and process for Scotland to become an independent country following a Yes vote in the referendum. It describes the transition that will take place and the negotiations that will be required on assets and liabilities, and to ensure continued delivery of public services. It also sets out the opportunities for a modern democracy with our own written constitution and describes how equality and human rights will be protected and promoted on independence. Finally, in Part five we answer detailed questions we have been asked about independence.

Part four was hilarious

- what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

Lol at the myopia of the converted

What really gets to me is the total lack of understanding shown by some for example the confusion between SNP policy and the future direction of scotland. The sheer willful blindness to the fact many of us want to do things differently up here and the sneering condescension. The inability to understand that some of us value other things than money

Ah, the plucky Scots crushed under the

English (Jack)boot

I'm glad to know how you view my community with such sneering disdainful condescension

There were pages and pages devoted to the loss of membership of the EU.It seemed to be a big stick to beat the indy movement with, strange how it isn't such a big deal now.

Big and daft - what reason then for such a strong desire to hold onto scotland?

big_n_daft - Member
'...English (Jack)boot'
I'm glad to know how you view my community with such sneering disdainful condescension

He should have called it the Westminster jackboot.

We're well aware that the regions in England also suffer under it.

Jamba - what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

Personally speaking its primarily due to a sense of pride in the UK being made up of a number of diverse regions and nations. Each add something to make the whole a greater and more interesting country. All under a single national government. Financially the rest of the UK would be worse off as we wod have to pay for same diplomatic service, civil service and military for example with 55m people rather than 60m. Both of these reasons I posted 3 years ago when we started discussing it.

Personally speaking its primarily due to a sense of pride in the UK being made up of a number of diverse regions and nations

Haha f'in irony.

I have a sense of pride in belonging to a Europe made up of a number of diverse smaller countries, but screw that eh Jam?

Grr.

Why all the talk of "holding on to" - sounds very colonial, imperialist to me

Being part of a wider union brings very obvious social and economic benefits to [b]ALL PARTIES[/b] in contrast to isolationism, protectionism and national narrow mindedness. Citizens enjoy greater freedoms to exercise their liberty, to maximise their opportunities while reducing their risks (physical, social, economic.) Benefits accrue from the positive economic (yes you cant ignore it) benefits that result from greater and easier levels of trade and investment. Trade between US and Canada is >40% lower than it would be in the absence of national borders. For a country like Scotland, whose main trading partner is the rUK, the only logical structure to purse is within a union.

Of course where the conditions for an optimum currency union exist (the UK) as opposed to do not exist (the EU), greater benefits still arise from the same freedoms but also the ability to have monetary and fiscal union both of which do (frustratingly for some) require a degree of political union. In that scenario, when surpluses build up in one area (eg, that horrible SE of England) [b]there is a mechanism and a willingness to recycle those surpluses to the regions in deficit. [/b]This is in stark contrast to the EU where neither the mechanism not the willingness exists and where the democratic deficit is at its highest. For those of a LW persuasion who remain, what's the word; "ignorant" of all this the following is a good read and written from a LW perspective and with direct experience of what is involved.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weak-Suffer-What-They-Must/dp/1568585047

"A titanic battle is being waged for Europe s integrity and soul, with the forces of reason and humanism losing out to growing irrationality, authoritarianism, and malice, promoting inequality and austerity. The whole world has a stake in a victory for rationality, liberty, democracy, and humanism."

How myopic or ignorant of current affairs does one have to be to swap one of the most successful unions in political and economic history, with a working (if occasionally flawed) system for recycling money between surplus and deficit reasons and with high levels of devolved power (de facto federalism according to some) for a broken version, that condemns the poor to suffer, wages to decline, unemployment to skyrocket, and inequality to rise and with an obvious democratic deficit at heart.

So the answer: rationality, liberty, democracy, and humanism

@THm This union has over the years provided me with an economic and industrial policy that has stripped my country of any industrial base, without any thought for the populations long term future. It has provided an immigration policy which restricts immigration when my country needs more immigration. The union also offers an undevolved national broadcaster which seems unable to provide news coverage that reflects Scottish politics accurately . My "local" council is 2.5 hours drive away, where my area is represented by 7 out of 80 odd councillors(are you listening snp) and my already vast Westminster constituency is about to increase in size again. It is vital that people should have a real say in national and local decision making and feel that their views are listened to and respected. So the answer is rationality, liberty, and democracy ..for me humanism or at least the humanist association shares too many of the aspects of the other religions.
Thanks for the addition to my already lengthy reading list though

You forgot to mention Thatcher gordi - apparently she singlehandedly destoyred Scotland's industrial base.

@THm This union has over the years provided me with an economic and industrial policy that has stripped my country of any industrial base, without any thought for the populations long term future.

This is an attractive narrative albeit one that is divorced from reality. The erosion of Scotlands' industrial bases is the result of very different structural and cyclical drivers. But its easier to blame Westminster admittedly.

As we all know, there is a balance to be achieved. Personally I am a great advocate of develoved power and much smaller levels of central government. However, that is a world away from advocating national self harm on a catastrophic scale. One example of this is enough for the time being.

Both of Varoufakis' books are interesting. The ne I have linked to is a great historical perspective but ultimately falls a little short on focusing on why the poor suffer. This is a key element of his thesis but is lost in too much history IMO. Still only takes a day or so to read as it is well written

[url= http://ukandeu.ac.uk/voice-and-partnership-the-bottom-line-for-scotland-on-brexit/ ]Professor Cram on the EU and on voices being heard[/url]

It has provided an immigration policy which restricts immigration when my country needs more immigration.

I would be asking myself why is immigration to Scotland so much lower than rUK especially outside of the central belt. There isn't a shortage of people coming into the UK, plenty settle in the north of England, what makes Scotland so unattractive compared to Oldham for example?

Could be many things Big n Daft. The situation may well be different in some parts of Scotland, over all we need to increase the working age population. We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy

big_n_daft
I would be asking myself why is immigration to Scotland so much lower than rUK especially outside of the central belt. There isn't a shortage of people coming into the UK, plenty settle in the north of England, what makes Scotland so unattractive compared to Oldham for example?

It's because we're all wild racists up here & turn them back at the border with flaming torches & pitchforks.

HTH

Or maybe they don't fancy the weather.