They may be able to persuade enough of their brethren that an iS in the EU is a better bet than one out and tied to the rUK
That's a false argument though, on the part of the SNP. All evidence so far suggests that iScotland wouldn't get in to the EU. They may as well try to persuade their brethren that an iS on the moon is a better bet than one tied to the rUK. It might be, but it ain't quite that easy.
What is your evidence? Genuine Q to be clear no agenda/implication.
The UK is leaving iS can take over its membership my understanding but happy to see what the latest information is
I would also imagine the EU would love to make the UK pay the price of braking bth unions to leave so I imagine they may be somewhat keen to have this nuclear option on the table
Take up seems to have died off
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/132687
The map is interesting viewing
The latest twitter outrage on the BBC image of a SNP politician sayes it all
Add Stv in as well http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14692107.Journalist__gagged__by_broadcaster_after_pressure_from_SNP/
The UK is leaving iS can take over its membership my understanding but happy to see what the latest information is
Do you have legal advice on that
All the noise from the EU is scotland would be welcomed with open arms. Even Spain has dropped its objection as it would set no precedent for Catalonia.
We do not have a definitive answer as the power to ask is reserved for westminster and funnily they won't ask.
I bet they manage to quote him accurately and its th eone opinion 0 and he clearly stated it was just his opinion, where the anti SNP mob maintain AS as an authority on all things
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2013/11/9348/downloads#res439021
[i]557. If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?
The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence.
It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty that Scotland will be independent.[/i]
😳
Yup BnD, Scotland leaves and Isis lone wolves will kill you all.
In all fairness a decision to leave the EU is a bit of a game changer, but Zulu11 knows that.
As for quotes ICBA if you want to take that as confirmation of your views then fill your boots
Is that a sniffy way of saying you agree with me?
BnD - it is important to follow the advice to read the Scottish press. Lets start with today's Scotsman and a main story highlighting the fact that the SNP has failed to introduce a single piece of legislation since winning the election and the fact Audit Scotland delivered another damning report revealing only 1/8 performance targets being met. With income inequality also rising in Scotland last year, you would think that the SNP would be prioritising getting things done. instead they are blowing up the Brexit smokescreen - good old diversionary targets.
You would think that those who claim to be working in the interest of the people - especially the non economic ones 😉 - would know where to focus their time and effort. Instead we get.......
In all fairness a decision to leave the EU is a bit of a game changer,
How is it a game changer?
[i]In these circumstances, people in Scotland would almost certainly vote to stay in the EU - but the result for the UK as a whole is much more doubtful. A Yougov poll last week found that in Scotland, voters support staying in the EU by 2 to 1; elsewhere in the UK, there is almost a 50-50 split. And so because Scotland makes up just over 8% of the UK population, it is conceivable that unless we choose to change our circumstances this September, we could be dragged out of the European Union against our will. Therefore the real risk to Scotland’s place in the EU is not the independence referendum in September. It’s the in-out referendum of 2017. That decision on Europe isn’t the primary reason for seeking independence – the main reason for seeking independence is a desire to gain the powers any normal nation has; the powers we need to build a fairer and more prosperous country.[/i]
28th April 2014 Salmond speech in Bruges, transcript here:
So [b]what's changed[/b] since then? The 'game' as you put it seems to be entirely unchanged. The prediction made by the first minister came true, yet despite having predicted this, his line, the published line of the Scottish Government, remained that it was a once in a generation vote.
(Ps. Don't you just hate it when actual documentary evidence undermines the SNP revisionist rhetoric 😆 )
NInfan - how disingenuous of you. Of course it has changed and changed hugely
We were told the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK
You equate Salmonds opinion with SNP policy
good old diversionary targets.
So [b]panem et circenses[/b] then?
All the noise from the EU is scotland would be welcomed with open arms. Even Spain has dropped its objection as it would set no precedent for Catalonia.
What noise from what governments on official meetings
Unless official is an unminuted meeting with a junior minister in a nice restaurant
Bread and circuses indeed and linking spuriously from this, I see that the price of shortbread is going to rise because of Brexit. Phew, having read the press I can get the Xmas order in early.
And more from The (very biased) Scotsman
Before Scoland approaches any second referendum, though we need a period of steady, consistent thinking about exactly how such a move could be economically sustainable
Unlike the last time.....hey, this Scottish press stuff is great isn't it?
NInfan - how disingenuous of you. Of course it has changed and changed hugelyWe were told the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK
By who? The First minister, in an official speech as first minister, said that a remain vote risked Scotland being dragged out of the EU, it was as far from 'expressing a personal opinion' as you can get.
You equate Salmonds opinion with SNP policy
The official position of the Scottish Government was that it was a once in a generation vote, this was not Salmond 'opinion' it was stated publically by both him and Sturgeon and published as official government policy in 'Scotlands Future' - again, as far from 'expressing a personal opinion' as you can get.
Big and daft - have a google - its all out there. Senior EU officials, foreign ministers etc. We can't have an official answer until westminster asks
Do you have a comment realted to if the UK leaves and it is the succesor state?Do you have legal advice on that
Deary me is that the best you can do ?
thank god its a well establish parliamentary convention that govts cannot bind other govts eh That said good find.so that is the one thing the SNP said that was true in amn=ingst all their lies then 😉is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty that Scotland will be independent.
The ote to leave the EU is clearly a seismic change and you need to be willfully myopic to argue otherwise so i guess you will continue 😛
AH i shoul dhave read onHow is it a game changer?
In the way that anyone with even a semblance of comprehension can see hence your confusion
Their is a time and place for "devils advocate" but this is poor. Its a massive change, we ALL know it even you.
some good finds and i am sure we are all as stunned as you to see a political party reverses it views after saying things to rally the troops....it is unheard of.Don't you just hate it when actual documentary evidence undermines the SNP revisionist rhetoric
It's a game changer
Or not
Can you imagine what sample must have been chosen to get a conclusion that 54% would rather live in a Scotland that was part of the U.K. that was not part of the single market versus 46% who would rather live in a Scotland that was a member of the single market but was not part of the U.K.
What is wrong with these people? Do they not read WoS?
It is hard to disagree with the conclusion in The Herald by BMG research Director Dr Michael Turner that when it comes to independence, Brexit “is not a game changer”. Support for remaining in the EU does not translate directly into supporting independence to achieve that goal. Nor has the Brexit referendum had a dramatic effect on party support in Scotland (see table).
How very inconvenient.
How is it a game changer?
I can only talk from personal opinion.
I voted to stay in UK as a) I didn't want to leave Europe and b) I didn't like the way the SNP sucked up to Trump.
Now we are 'out of Europe' and England appears to have lurched to the right I have no wish to remain as part of UK. I do not want to be associated with it in its current political guise. I'm prepared to vote independence as a result, I'd rather we beat ourselves with our own rod than the English (jack)boot. Plus, I haven't that much to lose, so **** it.
And even Wee Eck seems to have wised up to 'the Donald'...
So, a game changer for me.
I can only talk from personal opinion.I voted to stay in UK as a) I didn't want to leave Europe and b) I didn't like the way the SNP sucked up to Trump.
But, [b]you were warned this might happen[/b] before voting and chose to risk it... it's not a game changer, it's buyers regret.
It's no more a 'game changer' than people discovering that voting for Brexit actually means the UK leaving the EU.
, I'd rather we beat ourselves with our own rod than the English (jack)boot. Plus, I haven't that much to lose, so **** it.
I wondered how long before we could call Godwin's law
tjagain - MemberWe were told the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK
This was true.
An independent Scotland would be treated as a brand new nation, would cease to be a member of the EU, and would have to apply to join the EU same as any other country that isn't in the EU.
It's all in the articles. I linked to them in the first volume if you fancy a look. 🙂
it's buyers regret.
No, its really not. You don't know what I think. It's gone from why would we throw all that away to now they've thrown it all away, **** em.
Every word you type just makes this clearer to me.
With Nicola leading the austerity charge to ensure that membership requirements would be met - how amusing that would be. But since we all have a common interest in looking out for the best and widest interests of the Scottish people I am sure that no one would be advocating that in truth.
Ninfan - if you are still reading this thread there is a rights of way one that you could give advice on - "landowner needs put back in the box"
Big and daft - have a google - its all out there. Senior EU officials, foreign ministers etc. We can't have an official answer until westminster asks
Have a google - it's all out there. The Scottish Government asked for, and received, an official answer. This whole "only Westminster can ask" is a smokescreen. Our UKIP MEP asked as well.
The SNP didn't like the answer, so they carried on as if they had never asked, but the letters are available on the Scottish Government website.
If Scotland had voted for independence, it would be a new country to which the treaties would not apply. It could apply to join through the usual route.
While I am fairly confident we would be accepted into the EU, it might not be pleasant (we don't meet the criteria), we'd almost certainly not have all our current opt-outs and it wouldn't be particularly quick. Bear in mind that a unanimous vote of all existing members is required.
Nonsense - we never got an official answer
did someone forge this
if so, they did very good job
Twice 😉
anyway grumpy the situation is different post the EU referendum. I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU
But, you were warned this might happen before voting and chose to risk it..
There are repeated attempts to make out as if, at Indyref1, we all knew a EU referendum was coming. We didn't. We were told over an over that the way to save our EU membership was to vote No. we were told that Labour would win the coming election, or at worst there'd be another coalition - Ruth Davidson herself said so.
This airbrushing of history is a good attempt, but it's not true to say that people voted No in indyref1 knowing that an EU referendum was happening. It's just a lie.
There are repeated attempts to make out as if, at Indyref1, we all knew a EU referendum was coming. We didn't.
You knew it was a strong possibility. Many saw it as a probability. THe Tories had pledged one, and Labour had promised one if any further powers were to be transferred, and as pointed out, Rab specifically warned against the risk of it happening as a reason to vote Yes. It's entirely disingenuous to pretend this was a remote possibility that wasn't aired beforehand, or cropped up out of the blue in the aftermath of the indyref.
we were told that Labour would win the coming election, or at worst there'd be another coalition
Well, [b]some[/b] people said that... 😆 😆 😆
Ben you're right in that Better Together frequently used phrases like "only way to guarantee Scotland's EU membership is to vote no" It wasn't much of a guarantee though, because, in 2013 Cameron did promise a referendum on EU membership
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
Then again I see he made the same promise in 2009 and didn't deliver so maybe his loyal lieutenants in Better Together thought he wouldn't deliver this time either
tjagain - Member
anyway grumpy the situation is different post the EU referendum. I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state [b]so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU[/b]
I believe this is true, but fairly academic, I don't see there being a vote before brexit fully happens tbh.
I also think an IS vote based on being member of the EU is doomed to failure. I think a lot of people will view the EU differently post brexit, at least they will be confused as to where they stand, as i am regarding scotland in a post brexit EU.
I think an early referendum is too hasty, and doomed to failure tbh. Everything is just too complex. Meaning the game of subertuge that people on here and politicians like to play, will be all too easy.
Plus, simple fact is people did vote no, so you have to go with that for a while, and convince them otherwise, that's not happened yet, and opportunism on the back of brexit is a dangerous hand to play.
Plus as I've said before, brexit and how it goes, will answer alot of unanswerable question about an IS and the aftermath.
I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU
Where and who paid for it? Or was it just a blog post or letter to the editor?
What legal (paid for or in house) advice has the SNP or Scottish Government had on the matter? Who from, and what did it say?
Joe and Nicola knows the polls too - she has to keep here more rabid members fed from the indy spoon while praying that the majority of people can be hoodwinked at a later date.
When do you think she will pass the first piece of legislation in the new session?
Do you reckon that with the good news that Bruce published, income inequality might start to follow rUk trends and improve at some stage?
Perhaps they do a pre emmitive vote so they can become the successor state or the EU hold out to see what way they vote??
Nothing is impossible where there is political will- see the euro for example 😉
Its clearly very different from last time re EU membership.
teamhurtmore - Member
hoodwinked
See this is the thing about your stance tbh, it's all very sneerish at times, you should reign it in a bit.. It's not really a good look. And it doesn't really mask your real fears about an IS, which are all too obvious...that Englands standing in the world falls even further without us, particularly in a post brexit scenario! 😉 We can all see the real reason, well a large percentage of us, loss of face and that seat at the big table scares the life out of ye! 😆
Yes, the numbers for an IS don't particularly stand up at the moment(neither does just about every western nation, debt and deficit is the natural order), but that's within the context of the UK and there's plenty of small countries that are viable. Scotland will be viable post IS.
Hoodwink is the perfect description. YS blatantly lied - lots of it in the BoD - with deliberate intent. And it worked, remember how confused people were on basic issues at the time, and they remain confused now. The same [s]lies[/s] misunderstanding have been repeated over the past few pages - unless you believe that the people who post those things are incapable of sensible thought, you have to conclude that they have indeed been hoodwinked,
You're good at hoodwinking yourself though, well capable of playing the status quo as something that will hold forever. it won't.
Similarly the BoD, as you call it, wasn't a blue print for a future scotland, as you like to put it forward as, it was a document of aspirations and a(n SNP) vision. About as much as you can ask for. Anyone with half a brain understands that nation building won't come from a manifesto.
I must be missing some of his posts, is he not like this on rugger threads?it's all very sneerish at times
Nothing last forever Joe, we both know that. The important thing is that the future is better than the past. Hence, be careful what you wish for and what you believe. And don't let politicians get away with BS, just look at he current mess for evidence of that.
Edit for edit...no it was pages of unsupported facts and lies hat were easy to falsify. Hence, hood winking.....go and reread what they said about EU membership, how this is was untrue and how the same stuff keeps getting posted in here. "Dreams" is far too polite for the what it contained.
teamhurtmore - Member
The important thing is that the future is better than the past.
We'll agree there, but if that comes from the project of "complete the privatisation agenda" that we're well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i'll be astounded.
We'll see in 10 years or so..
And it doesn't really mask your real fears about an IS, which are all too obvious...that Englands standing in the world falls even further without us, particularly in a post brexit scenario!
Not really, Corbyn's Labour is more little Englander reducing significantly the projection of power and becoming more like a average small European country. The conservatives know they can't afford to project power like they used to and there aren't the people anymore and are now trying to do a China with development aid. The empire is long gone and the Scots who helped build it seem to be suffering collective amnesia.
The theme of the plucky Scot trying to reach a utopia denied by the
is patently untrue, but it does two things, upsets people with the obvious subtext adding to the PITA strategy, and polarises an important discussion with an "us" and "them"English (jack)boot
As the not so humourous petition shows, Scots nationalists are still loved by rUK
teamhurtmore - Member
Edit for edit...no it was pages of unsupported facts and lies hat were easy to falsify. Hence, hood winking.....go and reread what they said about EU membership, how this is was untrue and how the same stuff keeps getting posted in here. "Dreams" is far too polite for the what it contained.
maybe, but it was still just an snp manifesto though, not a blueprint.
