what makes Scotland so unattractive compared to Oldham for example?
It's still quite a lot further from everywhere else, and far fewer people so fewer businesses in general.
Don't forget the midges.
The longer Scotland stays in the Union, the more reliant on the other partners we will become. Policies of the UK Government are such that this will not change in the foreseeable. Scotland faces difficulties whether in the Union or not. There is an argument that if we stay in the Union then others can and will pick up the tab in the future. That is not a vision for our country I would sign up to. I would much rather make a break and implement the full range of policies that directly meet our needs as opposed to some of the policies that the power over has been devolved.
It's still quite a lot further from everywhere else
No, Scotland is in exactly the right place - it's everywhere else that's too far away 😀
The longer Scotland stays in the Union, the more reliant on the other partners we will become.
Yes - and this'll be resented by both sides. Even though it's not true, the idea that English taxpayers are subsidising Scots is a pervasive one. We're not really wanted in this Union.
Yes - and this'll be resented by both sides. Even though it's not true, the idea that English taxpayers are subsidising Scots is a pervasive one. We're not really wanted in this Union.
A vocal minority on this thread seem to be the exception.
Of course there's a simple, obvious answer, and it's not Scottish independence.
England should leave the UK.
That way Scotland, NI, Gibraltar etc will stay in the EU as we want. England can be free of EU interference as it wants, and as a bonus also free of us freeloading Scots.
It makes perfect sense.
We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy
And what exact actions would you propose? I have seen lots of "we need powers over this and powers over that" but no details of legislation or policy. Previous attempts to encourage growth outwith the southeast have not done too well, so what would you do differently?
There is a big gap between identifying something that needs fixed and implementing steps to actually fix it. Instead of simply highlighting what is wrong, could you suggest details of how it can be improved?
Even though it's not true, the idea that English taxpayers are subsidising Scots is a pervasive one.
Subsidise might not be the right word, but there is a "fiscal transfer" (the SNP words, not mine) into Scotland (see GERS for details). Even the SNP have said that full fiscal autonomy couldn't take place without "fiscal balancing" to replace Barnett.
Money has flowed in both directions historically. Today, and for the forseeable future, Scotland is a financial net beneficiary. Basically London is supporting the UK (but London probably couldn't be London without the rest of the UK so quid pro quo).
England should leave the UK.
I've been saying this for a long time. It would be the decent thing to do.
But, as in the case of Scotland that would be against the democratic wishes of the people km - #tartantotalitarianism
Surely it would just be an extension of Brexit? Get rid of migrants claiming benefits and putting pressure on the English NHS,and that's before we look at the financial savings. All the same arguments used by Brexit crowd. I am surprised Jamby isn't painting the side of a bus already.
How obsessed with jambas are you duckie? First post in the morning, in the afternoon......
A lot less than you are with the SNP!
Very true - I was chatting with Jambas earlier - the SNP are definitely far funnier, so I have made the correct choice 😉
Aww poor wee THM; still sore after the "angry nats" ganged up on you? 😀 "Lordsneeralot" How obsessed with [b]me[/b] are you? To the point of following me around the whole forum using the word sweaty at every opportunity in an attempt to noise me up...until they banned you! Every post I make,you are in there, see also point above about you and the SNP and for that matter Thatcher as you keep reminding people they have forgotten to mention her.
Subsidise might not be the right word, but there is a "fiscal transfer" (the SNP words, not mine) into Scotland (see GERS for details).
Only in that borrowing is taken out in our name by the Westminster government, and then that money transferred to Scotland.
Aww poor wee THM
Not sneering are you duckie?
Not sore - its amusing when people line up to make unsubstantiated remarks on a daily basis. Why do you think this thread keeps going?
The beauty of more than one screen, means you can keep the comedy channel open and still do other things. Its marvellous.
Only in that borrowing is taken out in our name by the Westminster government, and then that money transferred to Scotland.
Imagine what would happen if that wasnt the case?
A genuine concern for your bruised ego THM.
Not sore - its amusing when people line up to make unsubstantiated remarks on a daily basis. Why do you think this thread keeps going?
But I see it is fine.
teamhurtmore
Imagine what would happen if that wasnt the case?
I know, we'd probably have to stop sending so much to westminster & they'd have to borrow even more to subsidise the rest too...
you are too kind duckie, honestly, but thanks anyway
Imagine what would happen if that wasnt the case?
We'd borrow money ourselves, like almost every other country does?
Well yes and no ben. The ability to borrow, indeed any access, would be determined by whether the DOs idea of technically defaulting on your (share of0 debt was carried out or not. In truth, even the SNP are not THAT stupid. After that it depends on your currency choice, but the end result will be the ability to borrow less at more expensive levels of interest.
Why this desire to self-harm?
After that it depends on your currency choice, but the end result will be the ability to borrow less at more expensive levels of interest.
For how long? One year, two years, ten years or more? You can't possibly know the outcome of that. It's entirely possible that using money borrowed directly (even if more expensive interest) in the event of independence to implement a full suite of policies made in Scotland for Scotland, would result in lower borrowing costs further down the line. It is also possible that the policies implemented on the back of this are successful and reduces the need to borrow as much again in the future.
History suggests otherwise, but hypothetically you may be correct. But you can currently achieve the same think with less risk. Why this desire to self-harm?
We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy
What's happened to outcomes for Education and Health in the 10+ years since the Scottish Parliament has been running these?
because holyrood self harm may be less that westminster self harm?teamhurtmore - Member
History suggests otherwise, but hypothetically you may be correct. But you can currently achieve the same think with less risk. Why this desire to self-harm?
jambalaya - Member
Jamba - what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.Personally speaking its primarily due to a sense of pride in the UK being made up of a number of diverse regions and nations. Each add something to make the whole a greater and more interesting country. All under a single national government. Financially the rest of the UK would be worse off as we wod have to pay for same diplomatic service, civil service and military for example with 55m people rather than 60m. Both of these reasons I posted 3 years ago when we started discussing it.
So you agree with me - your pride would be wounded if scotland left ie its all about your prestige not whats good for the people and you are also worried about the money it will cost you
Game set and match
just 5 mins 0 both improved compared to england. Scotland spends far less on admin in the NHS and schools - well not without issues but again compared to england better and improving.
teamhurtmore - Member
...Why this desire to self-harm?
We figure making a few cuts on our arms type govt is safer than the car crash style of govt of Westminster... 🙂
@tj you said we where worried about the impact on the credibility and influence of the UK on the global stage if Scotland became independent. I refuted that and then you went on to repeat the reasons I gave years ago on the original thread. The UK as a whole loses some of it's cultural diversity if Scotland leaves, so I am against that. It makes me no less proud to be British if that happens.
The SNP is pressing on with it's use of Brexit as an excuse for legislation even though they know they woukd lose again.
I feel I owe it to the 55.3% of people who voted No to continue to support them in the face of the appalling behaviour from the SNP.
Try reading what I wrote - its even quoted above.
I think you are being overly presumptuous there, a second ref now would be dangerous as it will be so close and the necessary convincing hasn't been done, as yet(and personally i'd prefer at least 60%). But to say it would lose with certainty is misplaced confidence. Even if polls are around 40% just now (due tto an increase in don't knows). It's still a far better start than the 25% it started at last time.jambalaya - Member
even though they know they would lose again.
necessary convincing
😉
Hiring for the Ministry of Truth has started though, so progress....
teamhurtmore - Member
necessary convincingHiring for the Ministry of Truth has started though, so progress....
😆
tbh I'd prefer everyone just forgot about it and got on with it for the next few years. As I said the brexiteers will do the convincing when people realise that divorce of nations isn't all that scary. (the converse will be true if my instincts are wrong there..)
True but wee nippy needs a smokescreen, so this [s]thread[/s] story will run and run fuelled by a never ending supply of falsehoods, especially of the "winged" variety
TJ I think you are probably right that I didn't really read all of your post. Possibly you don't deserve that. I'd rather Scotland stays as part of the UK and IMO it will, it will take a very brave PM or some bizarre circunstances for their to be another approved Referendum 2 and matching Edinburgh Agreement 2.
tbh I'd prefer everyone just forgot about it and got on with it for the next few years.
That's Sturgeon's intention, get legislation in place now and then wait. The whole EU thing is a means to an end for the former, she doesn't really care about the EU membership one way or another imo
teamhurtmore - Member
...Why this desire to self-harm?
It's like getting some scrapes when jumping out of a moving car headed for a cliff edge.
It's like getting some scrapes when jumping out of a moving car headed for a cliff edge.
I can relate to the logic as that's how I see Brexit. Where we disagree on Indy and Brexit is we see the economic time bomb very differently
Could be many things Big n Daft. The situation may well be different in some parts of Scotland, over all we need to increase the working age population. We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy
What is the issue with the policies so successful at attracting people to Oldham?
Why don't people want to move to work in Scotland in preference to Oldham?
It can't be the weather, Oldham isn't exactly renowned for its balmy climate and parts of Uppermill have never seen the sun.
big_n_daft - Member
Could be many things Big n Daft. The situation may well be different in some parts of Scotland, over all we need to increase the working age population. We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy
What is the issue with the policies so successful at attracting people to Oldham?Why don't people want to move to work in Scotland in preference to Oldham?
It can't be the weather, Oldham isn't exactly renowned for its balmy climate and parts of Uppermill have never seen the sun.
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/statistics/high-level-summary/j11198/j1119806.htm
There isn't a problem.
The immigration argument in scotland is bunkum. Predicated on attracting people to rural areas. which has nothing to do with immigration.
The idea of scotland needing more immigrants to pay for our pensions is nonsense aswell. It's essentially a pyramid scheme that passing down the problem to future generation, so a pretty ridiculous solution if you ask me. It's not sustainable in the slightest.(Also the age demographics of scotland and england aren't vastly different).
I hate the immigration argument. It's nonsense, in scotland or england.
I hate the immigration argument. It's nonsense, in scotland or england.
Yup me too, we agree on this. The Germans have used the same argument to support immigration. Prudent German families are having fewer children as thats what they feel they can afford. Govt encouraging immigration to pay pensions 😯
Its all rather academic anyway as Sturgeon is a cautious politician and will not pull the trigger until she is sure and there has not been enough movement in the polls to make it so ( surprising to me after the EU referendum)
Meanwhile everyone [i]but[/i] the SNP is banging on about independence and the SNPs "obsession" with it which actually allows the SNP to get on with running a cautious and competent administration.
Other parties obsession with the SNPs supposed obsession with independence stops the other parties from having proper scrutiny of the SNPs actions in holyrood - like on here. NO one actually holds the SNP to account for the mistakes they have made.
One thing that really amuses me tho is the SNP are far more popular than any other political party in the UK. Must be doing something right.
I love immigration - positive impact on economies, my family (close and extended) have all being immigrants, fill the gap between the demand and supply of labour etc and yes ultimately support the ponzi public sector pension schemes.
Meanwhile everyone but the SNP is banging on about independence
This is one hell of a game you guys are playing!!!
I wonder what the SNP getting on with things looks like?
Nicola Sturgeon has come under fire after analysis showing her government has failed to introduce a single piece of legislation to Holyrood since the SNP won the Scottish election almost six months ago.
Hmm, very busy it seems
This is one hell of a game you guys are playing!!!
Agreed THM You are Alex Salmond and I claim my £5
😉 gordi
But really this constant flow of incorrect statements is incredible!!
"Gentleman, this is day 20 and the Top Spun trophy is still up for grabs, so every point counts. " Go maverick, Go!!
