Scotland Indyref 2

Let's all remember, if you don't live in Scotland you haven't a vote, but if you do (and are 16 or older) then you have.

Not if they use the same franchise as last time.

If you live in Scotland, are over 16 and come from one of a short list of countries that we approve of (but not any other ones) then you can have a vote.

Aye, Ruth has to face ne'er forget the poll tax and the fact that one female Tory single handedly destroyed Scotland's otherwise healthy and strong manufacturing base in the past.

No really

I personally think calling the referendum is a mistake but I'm sure there are plenty who will disagree with me.

I believe it is a mistake for Scotland and the UK, but I also believe that she had no option politically. Not to call for one would have left her, or her party, in tatters.

After she presented her list of unrealistic options she had to do something otherwise she and the SNP would be seen as powerless and irrelevant.

I do not think she will get the same easy ride through Westminster that Alex got last time - I doubt they will be as relaxed. I don't see WM blocking it, but I also don't see her getting the carte blanche that she is asking for.

Impossible to say to be honest

+1

I think a second referendum will probably just entrench views, I don't expect that many to change. Concern is whether going for a 2nd results in things being nastier than before, there is more at stake now, as it really becomes a now or never vote.

Why would TM accept a referendum before the issue that is "supposedly" triggering it had been decided?

I also think this is too early. But as noted it's a forced move.

Pretty sure I'm abstaining this time round. 360 degrees of bollocks.

molgrips - Member
I can't read this whole thread so - how much has public opinion in Scotland shifted since the Brexit vote, and in which direction?

However we're between a rock and a hard place as far as timing, so there wasn't really much option for Sturgeon. It was referendum or "bend over Scotland".

From our pov it's not that bad. Last time we started with a base of around 25% and nearly got across the line so there's reason for hope.

I suspect Sturgeon is betting on the adverse effects of Brexit on Scotland becoming clearer to help the independence case.

But it's not going to be a picnic.

Pretty sure I'm abstaining this time round

With the "once in a generation" phrase still swirling round my head that's my initial feeling.

I don't see WM blocking it, but I also don't see her getting the carte blanche that she is asking for.

I can't see Westminster not blocking it and Government has already pretty much said as much.

Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

teamhurtmore - Member
Why would TM accept a referendum before the issue that is "supposedly" triggering it had been decided?

A sense of fair play?

teamhurtmore - Member
Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

I hope you're made lead propagandist on better together mk2! 😆

SNP is Scotland's UKIP.

#JAMBAFACTS

Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

Maybe in the annals of political language.

I suspect Sturgeon is betting on the adverse effects of Brexit on Scotland becoming clearer to help the independence case.

Or possibly that calling the referendum might actually force Theresa May to try and offer Scotland a better deal post EU, to prevent a Yes vote?

Seems a bit of an unlikely plan as it would still probably result in Sturgeon's resignation, plus pretty sure they offered Scotland some concessions last time ('The Vow') which never materialised.

"once in a generation"

I hate that this still gets trotted out, I don't know where I sit Yes/No, and don't really want another referendum, but either way, when I voted No last time it was a 'Devil You Know' sort of vote, which didn't take into account in any way the threat of being taken out of the EU. In fact, I'm pretty sure we were threatened with being chucked out of the EU if we voted Yes!

I'm sure this argument has been done to death elsewhere, so I'll just trot out the cliched rebuttal...

'material changes'!

😉

Has anyone seen Teresa May speaking in pubic lately, or has she gone very quiet?

teamhurtmore - Member

Aye, Ruth has to face ne'er forget the poll tax and the fact that one female Tory single handedly destroyed Scotland's otherwise healthy and strong manufacturing base in the past.

No really

Posted 28 minutes ago # Report-Post

Or...We don't like the way the Tory party governs and would like something different thanks? You are the only person who mentions this, along with your attempt to pin anti-English sentiment onto us. You have been doing it for what 57/58 pages now. Any proof or is "the truth out there?"

Has anyone seen Teresa May speaking in pubic lately, or has she gone very quiet?

She doesn't believe in giving a running commentary, it's quite refreshing.

According to the UK government, the referendum "would be divisive and cause huge economic uncertainty". Obviously, Theresa May is not a keen student of irony.

Fair play Joe? since when has Ncola played fair even with her supporters? Take it back, she refused to increase the MRT which was fair enough. Beloved tartan Tory 😉

Note the justification for Folly2 - unlike the RW of us, wee nippy has 20:20 vision in he future and apparently it's definitely a hard Brexshit and a cliff edge. And we haven't even triggered A50 yet!!!

Lies, lies and BS. A heady cocktail of which there will be plenty served now.

So ducks, how different are SNP policies to filthy Tory scum policies down south?

Reality not rhetoric and (perhaps like rugby outcome based)

Remind me, how many Tory MPs are there in Scotland nd wha is their percentage of MSPs?

eat_the_pudding - Member
epicyclo
...But I'm not going to let pass your implication that opposing scottish independence is somehow related to a vision that includes;

you'll have Empire 2.0 to occupy your time. Lots and lots of brown people to exploit and feel superior to....
In this thread I have been accused of being a racist once already by someone who failed to produce any evidence and the implication of your comment isn't far off the same thing.

Its obviously not enough that you (and not only you) can't come up with any evidence that iScotland would not be an economic basket case. But it seems that anyone who disagrees with you or uses facts must somehow be an outsider with reprehensible character traits.

Such people can't be Scottish,
They can't live in Scotland,
They must be tories,
They must support brexit,
They must have certain attitudes about "brown people",

Whats next maybe "traitor" "quisling"?

There is a saying if the cap fits etc. but actually I wasn't aiming that at you.

I'd just come from the online comments of some of England's national dailies and experienced the love they have for Scots and foreigners, and their ineffable belief that the Commonwealth is going to take the place of the EU, so perhaps I was a bit jaundiced.

Note the first line of my post - it's aimed at the ill-wishers.

[i]"Ah, the wishful thinking amongst our ill-wishers.
Never mind chaps, although we will be gone soon, you'll have Empire 2.0 to occupy your time. Lots and lots of brown people to exploit and feel superior to...."[/i]

If you examine the British Empire's history, it has been about exploiting brown and black peoples and often murderously, so Westminster's talk of Empire 2.0 is repugnant.

I don't think anyone can come with any proof that Scotland will be an economic basket case (or otherwise), but there's plenty of historical evidence that small countries thrive after independence.

Based on the 100% non-return rate of former colonies and possessions I think it's a safe prediction that this will apply to Scotland.

However I believe there is a strong element of triumphant ill will in the statements that Scotland will be a basket case, so I feel no obligation to be polite to those people.

There is some sensitivity about the use of the terms "quisling" and "traitor".

I include the definitions so you can understand how I would apply them.

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Definition of quisling: a person who helps an enemy that has taken control of his or her country
Definition of traitor: a person who is not loyal to his or her own country, friends, etc. : a person who betrays a country or group of people by helping or supporting an enemy

Bedroom tax and Nuclear weapons are two that spring to mind THM. But it is about hating the bastard English Tories; isn't it?

Of course, don't ask, don't tell (or simple free riding). Honest iS politics. I can see the appeal for you guys.

interesting that the unionists are running scared of another ref... surely if the case is so strong in favour of the union, it'll be shooty in...

I suspect that this time, they realise the need to justify the union, not just pick holes in the case for independence.

Apparently the Sturgeon speech included "Antonine wall will be rebuilt and the English will be paying for it"

With that its back to an Indy Ref Yorkshire.

teamhurtmore - Member
Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

We'll have to wear our kilts then. 🙂

Grumpyscollar

So about 99% of the population?

Joe, the case for the union is obvious, Hence the need for 670 pages of nonsense to pretend otherwise.

At least the DO has started to speak some vague sense in the Scottish pound if not the rest that goes with it.

perhaps so, but you're going to have to make it.

Surely you relish the chance to kill off the nationalists?

Trews are acceptable epic 😉

(no Joe,, the only interest is to protect the best interests of Scotland and the UK and that is simple)

Tweeted by Aidan Kerr:
BREAKING: EU says Barossos 2014 words still apply and an independent Scotland would still have to apply for membership.

Oops..

epicyclo
I'm still against derogatory generalisations over here. But as you seem incapable of stopping yourself, please carry on regardless.

If you think I have "triumphant ill will" at the prospect of economic hardship in an iScotland (that will probably be paying my pension) you may have jumped an assumption too far (again).

But don't let that stop you assuming ill will hatred racism and intolerance (or whatever) in anyone who disagrees with you.

shirley it all depends on how the negotiations go

even the SNP wont be able to spin a soft brexit as being a good enough excuse

of course in the case of a hard brexit, it depends on what the EU might offer scotland in terms of accession, again that will be effected by how well the negotiations go and whether fox/davies/johnson/gove/moggy etc can keep a lid on upsetting the european commission

[img] [/img]

Whichever sexshit or sexstay
Things will be changing for Scotland so I think this time the people will be more inclined to go for indy

There can only he a Hard Brexshit, Nicola says so. No spinning required. 😉 but dont you dare question the narrative "youse Irrelevants"

It is amazing that the EU doesn't want to simply admit scotland as a member - it is not as if scotland has spent the last 200 years hating a larger neighbour who dug it out of the financial mess that it had got itself into.

And the EU must surely be looking around for another mouth to feed, with the budgetary surplus they will have post brexit. A country running a bigger budget deficit than Greece would be an ideal fit.

Reasons why the result of this referendum might be different:

- The scottish public are surely not going to fall for project fear again, especially when staying in the UK is now just as scary and uncertain.
- The rUK will be so distracted by the brexit cluster* that they won't be as organised or united this time round
- The labour party aren't going to make the same mistake as before which resulted in them wiping themselves out by doing Cameron's dirty work. If people thought Corbyn was lacklustre on brexit wait til they see him on indyref 2
- The UK haven't delivered on any of the promises given following the last referendum
- The brexit cluster* will have become just that by the time this referendum is held
- Due to brexit/trump/farage, nationalistic instincts have been amplified since the last indyref, this will result in more votes for independence.
- Sturgeon is a much more competent, telegenic and trustworthy leader than Salmond. She'll win the votes of people who couldn't stomach Salmond.

I can't actually think of many reasons why it'll be a no vote.

Dazh agreed

I think theres a lot of people in denial about how likely sexshit is

I doubt that, I think there are a lot of worried people and so they should be.

I can't actually think of many reasons why it'll be a no vote.

Pretty much the main one - fear.

I know too many people who are too scared of the consequences to consider it, and would opt for the status quo, even though it's a bit shite.

Pretty much the main one - fear.

Not going to work this time. The status quo of a hard brexit is scary enough. They haven't much to lose. And if Sturgeon can win some assurances from the EU on membership for Scotland, which I'm sure she will, the more scary option will be staying in.

Indeed why would anyone chose devolved power over giving up sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels. Brings a new meaning to the idea of a no brainer.

I know too many people who are too scared of the consequences to consider it, and would opt for the status quo, even though it's a bit shite.

the thing is with Brexshit the status quo no longer exists

so its a choice between a huge change and another huge change

as THM says, its a choice between being subservient to patronising politicians in London or Brussles*

* well thats how the SNP will paint it

the minute May gave her insanely hypocritical talk about scottish indy last month anther ref was inevitable, she even alluded to repatriating devolved power, it may have given the Little Englanders a patriotic hard-on, but it ensured another 2 years of division and bickering

its a choice between being subservient to patronising politicians in London or Brussles

The status quo of a hard brexit is scary enough.

You say that but only 32% of people in the latest study for HSBC were worried about the effects of Brexit.

Aye, Ruth has to face ne'er forget the poll tax and the fact that one female Tory single handedly destroyed Scotland's otherwise healthy and strong manufacturing base in the past.

No really

Dazh

Reasons why the result of this referendum might be different:

- The scottish public are surely not going to fall for project fear again, especially when staying in the UK is now just as scary and uncertain.

- The rUK will be so distracted by the brexit cluster* that they won't be as organised or united this time round

- The labour party aren't going to make the same mistake as before which resulted in them wiping themselves out by doing Cameron's dirty work. If people thought Corbyn was lacklustre on brexit wait til they see him on indyref 2

- The UK haven't delivered on any of the promises given following the last referendum

- The brexit cluster* will have become just that by the time this referendum is held

- Due to brexit/trump/farage, nationalistic instincts have been amplified since the last indyref, this will result in more votes for independence.

- Sturgeon is a much more competent, telegenic and trustworthy leader than Salmond. She'll win the votes of people who couldn't stomach Salmond.

I can't actually think of many reasons why it'll be a no vote.

it may have given the Little Englanders a patriotic hard-on,

Can't you just summarise the May governments view, and indeed policy, on pretty much everything with that sentence?

Gordi - you have a point, given how disappointing devolution has been - growth, education, health etc - perhaps being ruled by [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels makes sense after all! They have a proud track record at helping economically small, geographically peripheral and financially deficit states. With friends like that....

mefty - Member

I don't see WM blocking it, but I also don't see her getting the carte blanche that she is asking for.

I can't see Westminster not blocking it and Government has already pretty much said as much.

They would say that wouldn't they - but when push comes to shove it would give a huge vote boost to the yes side if the unionists play hardball so I don't see it happening.

Daz Indy is now even more of an issue financially

Indy Ref late 2018/2019
UK leaves EU March 2019
Given Indy Ref timing a Yes vote see Scotland Independent around mid 2021 at the very earliers
Assuming Hard Brexit Scotland has left the EU by the time its independent and faces WTO rukes with rUK for the 5-10 (yr) period it takes to join the EU. Even a wildy optimistic timetable is 3 years
With UK outside EU an iS can have no special arrangements with UK if its to be an EU member

Plus on top of all of this the EU (imo) is on fhe brink of a catastrophic failure of the euro and an almightly budget wrangle post Brexit. Being a member is going to look very unappealing

Apart from the real danger of losing, May will not want the distraction of an Indyref as she's dealing with Brexit.

I can't see the UK granting this, although turning it down will be embarrassing.

I'm sure Sturgeon knows it's unlikely to be granted and is just enjoying a bit of knife twisting.

Plus on top of all of this the EU (imo) is on the brink of a catastrophic failure of the euro

[img] [/img]

Westminster won't block the Holyrood vote legislation but there will be no Edinburgh Agreement v2

binners do you follow the news 😉 Have you seen whats going in Greece and Italy ?

BTW do you remember 3-4 years ago when I was posting that immigration was a growing issue ? Derided by many here as just another DM reading swivel eyed loon.

This thread needs more people who don't live in Scotland and don't have a clue about us to tell us what we need and what we're like.

@km you can do as you wish. In 2014 we where prepared for you to leave at your choice. What we did is pount oit the gaping flaws in the SNPs arguments & "strategy"

See that scenario above you can do what you want with it but you'll need better answers than last time. It's entirely up to you.

I'm for a second referendum, but if we are going to be independent we need to be totally independent, bugger having the queen as head of state.

All I know is that Cameron and Osborne will be laughing their tits off. Cameron may have lost his job by ****ing up on the EU, but at least he managed to keep Scotland. His title as the worst PM in modern history is about to be beaten at the first opportunity.

km79
a) Why should people who [i]do[/i] live in Scotland try to engage you when you ignore them anyway?
b) Why should someones argument be devalued or ignored because of their nationality?

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives said: “Nicola Sturgeon has today given up acting as First Minister for all of Scotland.

“People have said time and again they do not want to go back to the division of a second referendum.

“Nicola Sturgeon promised the 2014 referendum would be ‘once in a generation’.

“Today she has ignored the majority in Scotland who do not want a referendum and has decided instead to double down on division and uncertainty.

“The First Minister’s proposal offers Scotland the worst of all worlds. Her timetable would force people to vote blind on the biggest political decision a country could face.

“This is utterly irresponsible and has been taken by the First Minister purely for partisan political reasons.

“Both No and Yes voters have been urging her to put this to one side – but because of her own rash decision to use Brexit in a bid to lever support for independence, she has ignored them completely.

“Quite simply, today the First Minister has failed in her job to act in the interests of all of us.”

Her timetable would force people to vote blind on the biggest political decision a country could face.

Is she talking about Sturgeon or May? 😀

eat_the_pudding - Member
km79
a) Why should people who do live in Scotland try to engage you when you ignore them anyway?
b) Why should someones argument be devalued or ignored because of their nationality?

@jamba

DM reading swivel eyed loon

devolved power over giving up sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels.

It doesn't really matter how many times you type this its still a false equivalence. A really basic logical fallacy.

Its also a slight odd position for someone who was firmly in favour of staying in the EU to take

eat_the_pudding - Member

km79
a) Why should people who do live in Scotland try to engage you when you ignore them anyway?
b) Why should someones argument be devalued or ignored because of their nationality?

a) I'm all for people who live in Scotland to engage regardless of whether they are Yes/No, but if I don't like their manner/attitude then why shouldn't I ignore them.
b) Nationality doesn't come into it, if someone 'don't live in Scotland and don't have a clue about us ' then their assessment of us will be devalued or ignored. Perfectly possible to not live in Scotland and still have a clue, in which case I would happily consider their argument.

Who are we talking about again?

“Today she has ignored the majority in Scotland who do not want to leave the EU and has decided instead to double down on division and uncertainty.

“The Prime Minister’s proposal offers the UK the worst of all worlds. Her timetable effectively gives parliament no vote on one of the biggest political decision a country could face.

“This is utterly irresponsible and has been taken by the Prime Minister purely for partisan political reasons.

“Quite simply, today the Prime Minister has failed in her job to act in the interests of all of us.”

zigzag May really is the queen of hypocrisy !

Says it all 🙂

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3847/33264514872_0409e8f869_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3847/33264514872_0409e8f869_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

This time Sturgeon's political career is definitely over ... she has just thrown her last dice.

Go Scotland go, leave and gain your independence ... be free.

Your leader Sturgeon is guiding you to the promise land.

Go in peace.

Let the past be the past and confine to history.

You are free Scotland.

Go Scotland go ... 😆

I also love day drinking

[i]a) I'm all for people who live in Scotland to engage regardless of whether they are Yes/No, but if I don't like their common sense responses, then why shouldn't I ignore them.[/i]

FTFY

ft on the upsides for scotland

not quite the gravitas of chewks somethingion

https://www.ft.com/content/1219f41c-4456-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1

I suspect that Nicola's persuasion tactics won't work as well on Theresa as they did on Dave:

Regarding the deficit...

In 2010, the UK's deficit was over 10%. Did this somehow disqualify the UK from being a viable country? Also, did the UK govt in 2010 identify £153 bn worth of spending cuts?

So the question right now isn't what spending cuts do you make to reduce Scotland's deficit to zero. It's who would you rather have doing something about it over 5-10 years?

kimbers - Member
ft on the upsides for scotland

not quite the gravitas of chewks somethingion

https://www.ft.com/content/1219f41c-4456-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1

What's the jist, i'm stuck behind their paywall, must have read this month quota.

But if we get lumbered with WTO tarrifs once the UK leaves the EU, and then Scotland does manage to get back into the EU, it will then be subject to WTO tarrifs to trade with the UK, which is a much bigger percentage of its trade than with the EU.

Not followed this thread and fairly apolitical so a genuine question:

If Scotland went independant and stayed in the EU, couldnt they pinch all the financial services that alledgedly were going to move to Dublin/Paris post brexit?

HIGNFY et al. must be loving some of the soundbites coming out today, if this carries on they can sack the scriptwriters and videotape the news 😆

What's the jist, i'm stuck behind their paywall, must have read this month quota.

Getting swift EU accession, wooing , finance* from London to Edinburgh- RBS, Scottish pound able to respond to oil price better, but would need to be low corp tax etc to compete

* Could also be very good for Scottish uni's to attract EU students and research funding, convince Nissan to move their factory a wee bit further north etc

Richmtb, there is nothing Inconsisent about understanding the FUNDAMENTAL difference between the EU and the UK and the EU and the EZ. Simple comparisons between being part of the EU and part of the UK are misleading, particularly in the Scottish context

Membership of the EZ: total folly
Membership of the EU x EZ: total sense
Membership of the Union: total sense
Independence: much less sense but ok
"Independence (sic) plus EZ: extreme folly

kimbers - Member

What's the jist, i'm stuck behind their paywall, must have read this month quota.

Getting swift EU accession, wooing , finance* from London to Edinburgh- RBS, Scottish pound able to respond to oil price better, but would need to be low corp tax etc to compete

Who wants to go to Scotland? You might as well move to Faroe Islands.

* Could also be very good for Scottish uni's to attract EU students and research funding, convince Nissan to move their factory a wee bit further north etc

EU students and research funding will not be enough feed the Scottish people ... you want to starve the Scots? 😆

Nissan to move to Scotland so they can sell to the South i.e. England and Wales ... just put 200% tariff tax on them then see them scream. 😆