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I suppose that investment from the Chinese is out then?
Yeah, funnily enough all that carping from the Unionist politicians and parties gave them cold feet. They moaned so much when the deal was proposed that they ruined it, and now they're moaning that the deal was ruined.
Can't please some people.
all that carping from the Unionist politicians and parties gave them cold feet.
Ah, Quelle Surprise - “it wisnae me, a big boy did it and ran away”.
Ah, Quelle Surprise - “it wisnae me, a big boy did it and ran away”.
[i]the Chinese pulled the plug in August due to the outcry, with a senior insider close to the talks saying the fallout was received "very badly" in the Far East[/i]
I understand the logic. If you want to keep Scotland in the Union, you need to keep pretending that we can't survive on our own. So of course you have to complain about everything the Scottish government does - even if that leads to actually damaging Scotland's prospects. Because the result is what matters, keep Scots convinced that we need English money to survive.
Or maybe they pulled the plug because Nicola started harping on about another indyref?
Or maybe they pulled the plug because Nicola started harping on about another indyref?
Find me a quote that says that - all the newspaper reports say it was the fallout from the carping that did it.
The Chinese aren't daft - do you really think they met with the leader of the Scottish National Party and only realised later that she might be keen on Scottish independence?
Yeah, funnily enough all that carping from the Unionist politicians and parties gave them cold feet.
Too bloody right IMHO. We should never have done that deal and the SNP know that otherwise they wouldn't have tried to keep it quiet.
If it had been subject to proper parliamentary scrutiny at the time, perhaps something could have been done. But trying to hide it created a ticking bomb of political reaction.
"All that carping" is called democracy - not something the chinese would know about, mind you. What you are suggesting is akin to saying all opposition MPs (including SNP ones) should keep their mouths shut and leave the government alone to do what it wants.
And now the Scottish Government is sticking it's nose into a court case to try and look good.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37909299
I hope the government loses the appeal, but I also think the SNP should butt out. Jumping on a bandwagon does them no credit and within the scope of the executive vs parliament argument Scotland has no particular status. If the appeal loses, I'm sure the SNP will be quick to claim credit despite minimal participation.
I know, imagine the SNP sticking its noses into a situation that they should just "butt out" from, I mean they aren't even representing the will of the Scottish people by opposing Brexit... Oh wait...
If you want to keep Scotland in the Union, you need to keep pretending that we can't survive on our own. So of course you have to complain about everything the Scottish government does - even if that leads to actually damaging Scotland's prospects. Because the result is what matters, keep Scots convinced that we need English money to survive.
Sorry ben but that is hogwash IMO - of course Scotland can survive on its own. That is not the question. Rather the question is, or at least should be, under what structure are the interests of the Scottish (and British) people best served. That is equally clear. [end of thread 😉 ]
Ben I for one have said many times Scotland would of course survive outside of the UK
Duckman the SNP have 59 (?) MPs at Westminster where they can and do represent the interests of the Scottish people.
On the iScotland armed forces - its a very interesting question as to what the future shape of a (theoretical) Scottish military would be. A broad range of opinions in the nationalists on this.
MY personal view is that what we need is a Scottish defence force for realistic and reasonable threats ( not imaginary bogeymen) So I would like actually a small cheap military and would expect Scottish defence spending to be a smaller % of GDP than it is. I don't want to be in Nato.
So - Army would be based round commando style highly skilled and trained professionals. Navy would be coastal defence only, Air force would be ground support and for getting troops to locations quickly. What do we need to defend? these islands and our oil fields. I would also have a component for peacekeeping duties but no military adventurism overseas.
So if terrorists ( or those pesky Norwegians) tried to take over a rig - we need the forces to deal with that. We canot defend against a full scale Russian attack - whats the point in pretending we can - and anyway why would they?
I know, imagine the SNP sticking its noses into a situation that they should just "butt out" from, I mean they aren't even representing the will of the Scottish people by opposing Brexit... Oh wait...
Except it isn't the SNP as a political party sticking their nose in (if the Westminster MPs decided to join in this action, I'd not object nearly so much and not at all if they had joined at the start).
It is the Scottish Government joining in the action when the operation of the House Of Commons is not a Scottish Government competence.
The SNP tell us that the people are sovereign, yet they are joining in a court action to make the point that parliament is sovereign over and above the people? I voted remain, I do not want to Brexit but the referendum achieved a majority for Brexit and we have to accept that. The SNP most of all when they set the recent precedent that 50%+1 was sufficient to break up the UK (a far more significant step than withdrawing from the EU). If the SNP had accepted a higher threshold or some second requirement for the Scottish independence vote, perhaps we wouldn't have Brexit... It takes 75% to change the constitution of a ruddy tiddlywinks club FFS but only 50% for something this big?
MY personal view is that what we need is a Scottish defence force for realistic and reasonable threats ( not imaginary bogeymen) So I would like actually a small cheap military and would expect Scottish defence spending to be a smaller % of GDP than it is. I don't want to be in Nato.
Which brings you to Alex Salmond's stated position of standing idly by watching ethnic cleansing and genocide while all you can do is write angry letters.
I think your view is a fair option, but it isn't one that I agree with.
I believe we should be able to intervene in other countries, but that we have screwed it up a couple of times more recently for a variety of reasons. The USA have a lot to answer for in that respect.
Grumpy. Its an interesting question and I would have a component of the armed forces that could be involved in UN peacekeeping type efforts.
However our interventions in other countries have rarely gone well. Yugoslavia probably came out on the side of " we helped". nothing else has done. all the middle east stuff has made things a zilion times worse. Iraq for example we are talking millions of additional deaths
NATO is a deterrent. Scotland is unlikely to get invaded. If NATO is abandoned Estonia might not be so lucky. Withdrawing from NATO but wanting to be in the EU seems disingenuous.
disingenuous.
How often is that word apt?
Finland has a similar population, is non-NATO and in the EU, not to mention they share a large border with Russia. They can form a defence force of 230,000 if required during time of war and spend less as a %GDP than the UK.
That's an example to at least start with.
Probably the first time I've used it, so not often...
Finland has a similar population, is non-NATO and in the EU, not to mention they share a large border with Russia. They can form a defence force of 230,000 if required during time of war and spend less as a %GDP than the UK.That's an example to at least start with.
Not a good one given their history.
Just be a free rider?
5thElefant - Member
...Not a good one given their history.
Considering where they are, I thought they've done pretty well.
Say after me, "The positive outlook for Shipbuilding on the Clyde is another strong reason why Scotland should vote for independence."
Don't be so cynical THM. Apparently the actual situation is that you should vote for independence because less ships would be built on the Clyde following independence.
Scotland is unlikely to get invaded
no they are not, that's why the Russians were mapping Kilmarnock 1984 and Dunfermline in 1986 at 1:10000
If they take Kilmarnock or dunfermline then we are truly done for as our spirits will be crushed
They could have saved some time buying os 10k though
Im originally from Kilmarnock, they will get a surprise is they invade it based on an 1984 map! "And at the end of this road is a whisky plant where we can commandeer the output to raise morale...Oh..." Actually; occupying either Kilmarnock or Fife will soon convince them to uninvade.But I don't know why our neighbours are complaining. Scotland being occupied would reduce the burden on the English taxpayer surely? Win,win!
From what I've read, Soviet maps where supposed to be the dogs danglies for military purposes, and I'd be very surprised if Russia has not updated those maps since. Just as I'd be surprised if we'd not updated maps of Russia.
Anyway, if Trumpy is heading for a win, all bets are off. Expect to see the US Marine core annexing an Aberdeenshire golf course by the end of the next year with punitive strikes against any wind farms in sight.
Piemonster; Anyway, if Trumpy is heading for a win, all bets are off. Expect to see the US Marine core annexing an Aberdeenshire golf course by the end of the next year with punitive strikes against any wind farms in sight.
Yup, we have a dictator and Oil as well, drones over the shire by tea time.
1) I blame Kezia
2) What with Trump and Enola May I recommend buying tinned food.
3) Opinion pollsters should all just pack it in.
Opinion pollsters should all just pack it in.
They are making £££ getting hired again and again to delivery the result the people (media) paying them.
As I posted before lets see Sturgeon and Salmond's reaction after all their rhetoric.
Congratulation again to the wise folk of Scotland - three awful debates with Indy, Brexshit and the US election, but only the Scots were able to see through the lies and BS.
Canny folk indeed and a beacon in an otherwise dark world 😉
I look forwards to watching Salmond and Sturgeon slithering and grovelling as they try to win/retain Scottish export and tourism markets with the USA 😈
Is this actually a thread on Scotland potentially having a second ref or just a thread for the self-styled master race to vent? Perhaps one of you could start "Why we can't lose Scotland" thread, maybe after a period of self reflection. It is good that everything is rosy in Westminster and you can take the time to sort out the way we are governed.
Congratulation again to the wise folk of Scotland - three awful debates with Indy, Brexshit and the US election, but only the Scots were able to see through the lies and BS.
Just because we were on the losing side, doesn't mean we were on the wrong side.
We really, really need to stay in the EU now.
We really, really need to stay in the EU now.
Unless something fundamentally changes with the Brexit process (Theresa May: "haha, just joking") then you can't and won't. The timetable just won't work.
There are several ways it could be done - depends of course on whether we have another Indyref, but if we do then it's pretty likely we'd have EU membership.
Anyway, Nicola Sturgeon has responded, and there's no sign of slithering or grovelling:
I am sure that Donny with give her words and warning the suitable level of consideration.
Yeah, basically we're all stuffed. Sturgeon just tweeted Maya Angelou, though, so still not grovelling.
It is good that everything is rosy in Westminster and you can take the time to sort out the way we are governed.
Just because there are problems with Westminster, doesn't mean that the proposed alternatives are any better.
Politics need to change - Trump, Brexit, UKIP, SNP, Corbyn, Front Nationale, etc are all symptoms of that. But so far the establishment isn't listening. That doesn't make those alternatives a good choice even if it makes them look appealing at the time.
Opps ... Sturgeon and Salmond have spoken too soon ... 😆
Trump: "Dance you two, dance! I said dance!"
Sturgeon & salmond: "Yes, Merican President. We dance!"
I give it 2 days before Turnberry has a big walloper spray painted on it.
Just because there are problems with Westminster, doesn't mean that the proposed alternatives are any better.
Well, maybe. There are big problems with the democratic systems in both Westminster and the USA, allowing people to get complete power on a minority of the vote. Clinton actually got more votes than Trump.
A better voting system would prevent a lot of this, but that's not going to happen at Westminster or in the States - but we do have a better system at Holyrood. Not perfect, no system is, but much more representative of what people actually want.
Scotland is tiny compared to the UK or especially the US, so I'm not totally convinced the Holyrood model would scale up. For starters there are very little checks and balances in Holyrood, check out the complete non debate over the creating a single Scottish police [s]state[/s] force.
mcj78 - MemberI give it 2 days before Turnberry has a big walloper spray painted on it.
Posted 52 minutes ago # Report-Post
Is it not a wee bit posh for that?
Dragon again you show your ignorance of the system. Yes its a unicameral sytem but the committee system is much much stronger that Westminster to provide the checks and balances. Its not the SNPs fault the Labour and tory parties are so poorly performing.
Aracer - of course it is perfectly possible for Scotland to remain in the EU. All we need is for an independence referendum to be won before article 50 +2 years. Unfortunately the polls are against winning one. BUt then polls have been wrong before
[quote=tjagain ]Aracer - of course it is perfectly possible for Scotland to remain in the EU. All we need is for an independence referendum to be won before article 50 +2 years. Unfortunately the polls are against winning one. BUt then polls have been wrong before
It would also need the EU members to agree Scotland could remain a member (as opposed to reapplying). That seems more likely now after Brexit.
retro lots of noise from powerful people that they would do this - or create a streamlined reapplication. Much easier as a successor state making the eu remain 28 rather than a new state making it 29
And then you boys can have economic policy set in Frankfurt. Imagine how good that will feel - Independence!
duckmanIs it not a wee bit posh for that?
You're right - the phallus as a symbol transcends class, having a downtrodden farmer deposit a tank of slurry up the wall would be more apt 😉
And then you boys can have economic policy set in Frankfurt. Imagine how good that will feel - Independence!
Fine with me - the Germans seem the only ones with their heads screwed on right, at the moment.
Ask the periphery countries how they feel Ben?
The system is designed around Germany, for their benefit, hence the lack of a system to recycle German surpluses effectively. You have to be into major self harm to want that.
A better voting system would prevent a lot of this, but that's not going to happen at Westminster or in the States
I actually quite like the systems that the House and Senate have. I think it gives a nice balance and could be adapted to the Commons and Lords (one regional FPTP and one PR maybe). The presidential system is pish though.
Dragon again you show your ignorance of the system. Yes its a unicameral sytem but the committee system is much much stronger that Westminster to provide the checks and balances
WTF - Holyrood committees are incredibly weak, Westminster committees are a far more effective system.
Westminster committees can't stop legislation but do a lot to improve it. Most of the work of the parliament is done in committee and not in the chamber. One of the differences is that Westminster don't whip their committees (although party lines are still clear, MPs are often critical of their own party) while the SNP are quite happy to whip their Holyrood committees to smooth things through.
Holyrood committees should be more powerful and a real force to regulate the Scottish Government (which was the original intention behind a unicameral legislature with strengthened committees) but that hasn't happened in practice.
Personally, I don't like any of the unicameral setups and would always prefer to have an upper house of some sort (but not like the Lords of today or yesteryear).
"It would also need the EU members to agree Scotland could remain a member"
retro lots of noise from powerful people that they would do this
But it needs to be unanimous and that doesn't suit all EU member states (it is possible, I don't think it would ever actually happen). A streamlined application I could easily see - but that still leaves us out of the EU for a time and probably loses us our current opt-outs.
Is this actually a thread on Scotland potentially having a second ref or just a thread for the self-styled master race to vent?
Duckman we are all equal as citizens of the UK, no one race is master. The Scots are in fact in a preferential position having their own regional parliament as well as Westminster representation.
@tj even the most optimistic SNPers I heard said Scottish Independence would take 3 years and the EU Has made it abundantly clear Scotland would have to apply from scratch to join, 5 years absolute minimum. Agreed Grumpy an iS would have zero UK style opt outs, made that point repeatedly during the 2012-14 Referendum.
Saw Salmond on Sky, speaking of the need for Trump to reach out etc as per Sturgeon and heal the divisions. Oh the irony of two politicans pressing ahead with their Independence agenda after conclusively loosing a "once in a lifetime" Referendum during which they had 2 years to make their case.
jambalaya - Member
...Oh the irony of two politicans pressing ahead with their Independence agenda after conclusively loosing a "once in a lifetime" Referendum during which they had 2 years to make their case.
And the beauty is we will be independent.
If not this time, then next time.
Try, try, and try again... etc 🙂
The EU has said no such thing Jamba. Many powerful people in the EU have said many things - much of them favourable to finding a way to keep scotland in the EU.
You might have made loads of points but you are I am afraid talking out of your hat.
Lets see your quotes from " the EU" on this showing you are right. You won't be able to because no such thing exists. Put up or shut up
Thanks for clearing that up Jamby; I'll put that down as an "or" then?
TJ Barosso said so many times during the Referendum campaign, I wouldn't put too much store in what EU officials have to say in the wake of Brexit.
Duckman, this thread like most others drifts off from time to time. As TJ said even if you had a Referendum now the accepted view is it would be a stronger No than 55/45 consistent with SNPs reduced majority at Holyrood, so it's a rather mute point.
Barrusso is not the EU. His statements were aimed at the Catalan separatist movement. The situation has changed since then
Now find some quotes from "the EU"
Tusk and Junkers post the EU referendum have both said there is no issue with an independent scotland remaining in the EU either with continuity or thru an expedited joining process as have many other powerful and influential folk..
Oh ~and I didn't say that at all and its not the truth anyway. Polls point to a closer vote right now but Sturgeon quite rightly does not want a vote unless the polls show a clear swing for yes which they have not. Try not to invent things folk say there is a good chap
As TJ said even if you had a Referendum now the accepted view is it would be a stronger No than 55/45 consistent with SNPs reduced majority at Holyrood, so it's a rather mute point.
Accepted by who? Is this another of your made up assertions?
Indeed it is as the polls show him to be wrong. the polls moved a point or two towards independence but thats not enough
Bienvenue et Bienvenido from the EU
The French president and Spanish prime minister have both said they are opposed to the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland.Spanish premier Mariano Rajoy said he "believes everyone is extremely against it" and that "if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves".
President Francois Hollande of France insisted the EU would make no advance deal with Scotland.
But who cares what Rajoy and Hollande think?
Cant believe that people are still talking about polls, but here you go from the LSE
Recent polls have not shown Brexit to make a decisive difference in terms of support for independence. A September 2016 poll which posed the question ‘If a referendum were held tomorrow, on whether Scotland should leave or remain part of the United Kingdom, how would you vote?’, showed support for independence at 45 per cent, with 55 per cent for remaining in the UK, ‘the same result as the 2014 Independence Referendum’.
Inconvenient
Ah polls they've been on a good run since 2014. Or not. Look at actual election results.
There isn't going to be a Referendum recognised by the UK government in Salmond's lifetime. The SNP won't even call one without UK recognition as they won't win it. It's too late, the opportunity was 2012-14 and it was lost.
I really don't know why SNP has to keep banging on about independence as Scottish people are not really treated as slaves you know.
SNP really needs to stop banging on about Independence coz that is really boring now. It's like your car is stuck on the 1st gear burning out the engine.
Give it up ... try again in another century or two when the world is a better place to live.
is that California thing for real ?
chewkw - Member
...SNP really needs to stop banging on about Independence coz that is really boring now...
So sorry that our desire for self-determination is boring you.
Shall I ask the SNP to desist to save you from ennui?
For at least the second time on this thread jamba, the SNP may have lost their overall majority this time but they lost seats on the list because their vote went up and they won more seats on the constituency section
The SNP vote was up compared to 2011 on both constituencies and regions
http://www.bbc.com/news/election/2016/scotland/results
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/overview/html/scotland.stm
You d'hondt understand our electoral system, which was created with a view to keeping the snp out of power
Good news for our colonial masters. [url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/entire-british-empire-restored-20160624109759 ]The Empire is restored.[/url] Now there will be lots more natives to sneer at.
Cruel to link to that, you will make some folk teary eyed and nostalgic for when the Colonies knew their place.
Finally, Nicola has found an argument that has won me over. I repent, please forgive me.
http://newsthump.com/2016/11/12/nicola-sturgeon-refuses-to-accept-result-of-england-vs-scotland-match/
So sorry that our desire for self-determination is boring you.
But not the desire of the majority of Scots it would seem. If a 2nd referendum goes your way, would you be willing to have a third foround those unhappy with the result?
Oh look! A winning footy match and the master race start to appear out of the woodwork.
zanelad - Member
But not the desire of the majority of Scots it would seem. If a 2nd referendum goes your way, would you be willing to have a third foround those unhappy with the result?
Zombies shouldn't have the vote - or at least the Postal Vote. They rose from the dead last time, hopefully measures will be taken to authenticate or at least cross-check postal votes next time so they won't affect the result so much.
Or we could take a leaf from the Brexit book and ban all non-Scots. It looks like the No vote was swung by English and EU voters, and that a majority of Scots voted for independence.
[url= http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scottish-nationalism-stands-apart-from-other-secessionist-movements-for-being-civic-in-origin-rather-than-ethnic/ ]It's not where you were born but where we are going as a nation[/url] You're not really getting the civic nationalism thing there epic.
It was absolutely shameful that eu migrants were prevented from voting in the eu referendum.
Or we could take a leaf from the Brexit book and ban all non-Scots. It looks like the No vote was swung by English and EU voters, and that a majority of Scots voted for independence.
Always makes me shudder, regardless of the intent of meaning.
I was sat on a train out of Edinburgh last week, eaves dropping to all intents an purposes. Much the same thing was said in the overheard conversation, expect there was use of the words "scum" and "slaves".
Weekend in Edinburgh. The whole house party were Unionists - the anti SNP feeling made me look like a Strugeeon fan!!! 😉 I had expected a more balanced crowd but the well-heeled of the Capital seem entrenched in their opinion!!!
A bit of a dull day yesterday but for the first time I felt Edinburgh looked frankly scruffy. We went to Nat Gallery and the facades opposite were really tatty and the traffic with the trams awful. The whole facade needs an uplift.
Lovely big Poppy garden though!!!! 😉 they like their remembrance!!!
Not a big surprise in Edinburgh surely ? They'd be slaughtered economically by the Indy's in Glasgow voting out. I mean the SNP would even put the central bank in Glasgow to be near Parliament surely ?
gordimhor - Member
It's not where you were born but where we are going as a nation You're not really getting the civic nationalism thing there epic.
That was supposed to be tongue in cheek. 🙂
Reading it again, it doesn't look like it. so to make it clear, I believe everyone who lives here should have a say, not just the lucky ones who were born here.
Was just trying to highlight how the Brexit vote was skewed by not doing just that.
so to make it clear, I believe everyone who lives here should have a say, not just the lucky ones who were born here.Was just trying to highlight how the Brexit vote was skewed by not doing just that.
The Scottish referendum franchise did not include all who live here - only British, Commonwealth and EU citizens.
Immigrants voting is an awkward one - I'd want anyone who has semi-permanently moved to this country to get a vote, but someone on a brief student visa shouldn't. I agree the Brexit franchise went too far.
The Brexit franchise also included expats, which our referendum didn't - I think a Scot living in Wales should probably have a vote as they have a vested interest. The SNP are making a big deal about needing access to EU freedom of movement, but denied a vote to any Scots who took advantage of that.
Expatriates certainly have a vested interest and who knows how they would have voted. I don't think they should have a vote people who live in a country should have the decisive say on how it is governed. It's one of the reasons deciding to emigrate can be so difficult and painful but in my opinion when you leave a country on a long term basis you leave your right to a vote in that country too