Is this planned anytime soon? Or is it just a virtue signalling motion?
How can they establish anything other than a sink for tax payers cash that's just a talking shop? Who is going to pay for it?
No idea, but having it as a stated policy would make the SNP about 100x more prepared than the brexiters!
are you likely to change your vote next time
My vote doesn't count. For what its worth I can see why more people might be edging towards a Yes this time. Personally I still think it's all grass is greener politics and reality will be more complicated, messier, more expensive and leave Scotland in a worse position than it is now.
What we need to do is get Boris and his idiots out and return UK politics to something that actually benefits the population, that's in everyone's interest. Whatever happens we have to sort Westminster out first or
1. There will be no referendum.
2. Boris will play crazy and vindictive games during any deal making.
3. Scotland will still be screwed as it's biggest trading partner will be run by a bunch of total morons.
What we need to do is get Boris and his idiots out and return UK politics to something that actually benefits the population,
There lies the problem, I don't see it getting any better, Johnson & co have twigged that all they need to do is shout "statues/immigrants/got brexit done /kneeling footballers/EU" and the client press & half the country jump to attention....
stumpyjon
Full Member
are you likely to change your vote next timeMy vote doesn’t count. For what its worth I can see why more people might be edging towards a Yes this time. Personally I still think it’s all grass is greener politics and reality will be more complicated, messier, more expensive and leave Scotland in a worse position than it is now.
What we need to do is get Boris and his idiots out and return UK politics to something that actually benefits the population, that’s in everyone’s interest. Whatever happens we have to sort Westminster out first or
😆 best of luck with that.
Presumably Scotland could use the Euro without joining the Euro - like Kosovo amd Montenegro?
Presumably Scotland could use the Euro without joining the Euro – like Kosovo amd Montenegro?
I imagine it's not SNP policy for a reason.
Not having a policy means not having to discuss the downside. Cake and eat it politics in the best tradition of Brexit
No idea, but having it as a stated policy would make the SNP about 100x more prepared than the brexiters!
100x0=?
Out of interest big_n_daft, are you scottish/a scottish resident? Apologies if covered earlier, I've not followed the whole thread.
As do all countries, but you know, it’s “civic”, and by “the people of Scotland”
All countries do, but it's a lot easier in a country of 6 million people than it is in a country of 60 million.
The UK's democratic deficit isn't going away any time soon. It was workable when successive governments went along with the unwritten rules but now BoJo and Cummings have proven that they can be ignored without consequence.
Yes, life in the UK could get better over the next few years and decades. It could also get a lot worse and there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Out of interest big_n_daft, are you scottish/a scottish resident?
Is there a limit on who can join the debate?
As I recall only the "people of Scotland" get a vote.
Am I committing an offence under the Hate Crime Bill? I wouldn't want to offend, just in case it involves jail time.
I also understand the "not one of the people of Scotland" guy from Wings Over Scotland plans to stand for Holyrood.....from his home in Bath.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18610823.wings-scotland-party-still-considered-ahead-election/
As an Englishman who has lived here for over 20 years and has raised a family here, I voted yes last time. If a few more people had joined me we’d never have left the EU of course, but I do think it will be a fundamentally different proposition next time. It won’t be about breaking away and trying to make it on our own but of not breaking away and being part of a larger club instead.
Personally I think they should be looking at EFTA and closer links with our Scandinavian neighbours first. That social democratic model would look pretty attractive to a lot of Scots I suspect.
Those who say we should stay and try to change the UK instead are missing the fundamental point. The Scots and the English are different. It’s nothing to do with tartan or whisky but more about things like the rights of the individual vs the rights of society. Just look at something like the land reform act. Something that could never happen in England because, whether they own land or not, English people believe that the rights of the landowner should take priority.
The Scots and the English are different.
Not in any meaningful way, that just division politics, tribal them and us rhetoric, exactly the same as Brexit.
The only real difference is economic activity, in 2019 GDP per capita in Scotland was £30k, in England it was £43k. But I'm sure Scotland will cope just fine once the south / north cash flow stops and the cost of the process of independence is paid for.
Not in any meaningful way, that just division politics, tribal them and us rhetoric, exactly the same as Brexit.
I disagree. I think there is a difference. That’s based on being born and raised in England then moving to Scotland and it’s basically what persuaded me to vote yes last time. You may not agree and we could go round in circles all day debating whether the difference is innate or due to circumstances, but that’s my experience. Of course there is a spectrum of views everywhere but in much the same way that my five years living in the States taught me that residents of the USA just look at the world in a different way to Europeans, my time here has made me believe that as Scots also view things differently to the English. The attitude towards ownership of property is just the most obvious example.
Put it this way, if Scotland and England were separate countries I believe they would diverge rather than continue on the same path. Ultimately that’s all that matters in a independence debate. Do you want to go in a different direction or not. If you don’t then there is really no point to independence. If you do then there isn’t really any choice as the idea that Scotland can persuade England to follow a different course is fanciful.
Is there a limit on who can join the debate?As I recall only the “people of Scotland” get a vote.
Am I committing an offence under the Hate Crime Bill? I wouldn’t want to offend, just in case it involves jail time.
I also understand the “not one of the people of Scotland” guy from Wings Over Scotland plans to stand for Holyrood…..from his home in Bath
I was just curious, tbh. Obviously a touchy subject though, so I'll bow out.
stumpyjon
Full Member
The Scots and the English are different.Not in any meaningful way, that just division politics, tribal them and us rhetoric, exactly the same as Brexit.
The only real difference is economic activity, in 2019 GDP per capita in Scotland was £30k, in England it was £43k. But I’m sure Scotland will cope just fine once the south / north cash flow stops and the cost of the process of independence is paid for.
That's not an argument for the union.
Local northern european economies
2019 nominal ($)
UK - 41,030.2
Sweden - 51,241.9
Iceland - 67,037.3
Ireland - 77,771.2
Norway - 77,975.4
Denmark - 59,795.3
Netherlands - 52,367.9
Finland - 48,868.7
Germany - 46,564.0
I'd suggest that the UK is performing piss poorly and is holding scotland back. It also suggests that smaller northern european countries perform better.
tpbiker
The challenge was originally for epicycle, but I see he hasn’t taken me up in it either!
I have doubts because recent events may prove you right.
I think our current First Minister has done as good a job as possible with the resources available as far as running Scotland is concerned. She also has done an excellent job of getting international awareness that the UK is a union of countries (which is how it identifies itself in the UN).
However I think she has vacillated too long. Now there is a growing smell around the SNP and signs that it is more concerned with maintaining its status quo for the benefit of the careerists rather than pursuit of independence. The SNP is talking the talk very well, but not walking the walk. It is at risk of imploding IMO.
They have wasted time fighting Brexit rather than for independence. With the UK in turmoil over the last few years, that was the time to strike.
The very idea of seeking fair treatment from an English dominated Parliament where Scottish non-Tory MPs are treated with contempt, is laughable. The UK doesn't do fair or honest, and that has been highlighted by the Brexit negotiations.
So, like many, I am hoping Sturgeon has some nifty masterplan up her sleeve, such as making the May election a plebiscite.
If she goes into it simply seeking another mandate (I think it's 6 so far), then the SNP is going to lose votes to the other independence parties. There's plenty examples throughout the world of getting independence peaceably without having to get "permission" from an occupying power.
They will probably still win the election quite convincingly, but it will be the apogee of the SNP's trajectory, because if they get a "legal" referendum from this Tory govt, it will have so many constraints on it, we'll get much the same result as last time.
Hopefully the clean out of the NEC will lead to a revitalisation, and if she is then reluctant to step up to the plate, possibly the replacement of Sturgeon with a leader committed more to independence rather than the party.
As far as I am concerned, the Scots are a sovereign people (and this is recognised by the UK parliament). A government elected by a sovereign people has the right to exercise this sovereignty by such actions as running a referendum of its own without seeking permission from anyone other than its sovereign people.
The question being should we revoke an international treaty that is no longer in our interests. (That treaty is the Treaty of Union with England.)
Or we could simply do as Margaret Thatcher is purported to have said. All Scotland had to do to be independent is withdraw our MPs from Westminster.
We live in interesting times. 🙂
I’d suggest that the UK is performing piss poorly and is holding scotland back. It also suggests that smaller northern european countries perform better.
It will be interesting to find out. Without other peoples money to spend I imagine Scotland will have to become competitive. Competition will be good for the uk.
5thElefant
Free MemberIt will be interesting to find out. Without other peoples money to spend I imagine Scotland will have to become competitive. Competition will be good for the uk.
Happy to also find out. Also happy to get away from the self harming uk also.
btw a wee bit of a newsflash for you, England is also run on the credit card. Or did you miss that 3 trillion black hole the uk has? 😆
Let's not pretend England subsidies anyone... It's all on the never never.
btw, also have a gander at the GERS figures that everyone likes. Scotland also pays debt interest repayments on that, so spare us the English altruism patter.
Let’s not pretend England subsidies anyone… It’s all on the never never.
Even more so now that brexit has damaged the financial services cash cow
It won’t be about breaking away and trying to make it on our own but of not breaking away and being part of a larger club instead.
To join the club you need to sort out the currency issue, so is it Merks and Bawbee's or the euro?
Can't or won't answer the question? What makes it different to Brexit then?
There’s plenty examples throughout the world of getting independence peaceably without having to get “permission” from an occupying power.
Is Scotland under an occupying power?
Are you one of those loons running around the woods training for the struggle sharing a well thumbed copy of the anarchist's cookbook?
The very idea of seeking fair treatment from an English dominated Parliament where Scottish non-Tory MPs are treated with contempt, is laughable. The UK doesn’t do fair or honest, and that has been highlighted by the Brexit negotiations.
The myopia on the history of Scots, Scottish MP's, and their relative representation at Westminster is astounding. In the context of a 300 year history the current SNP bubble is at risk of popping dramatically.
Sturgeon is on a downward spiral as the lies and policy failures catch up. The SNP have no-one capable of replacing her and maintaining the polls or advancing independence. The pendulum will swing back.
big_n_daft
Free Member
relative representation at Westminster is astounding.
650 seats 59 scottish mps. - 9% hardly an imbalance.
I’d suggest that the UK is performing piss poorly and is holding scotland back. It also suggests that smaller northern european countries perform better.
Only if you ignore costs of living.
I was just curious, tbh.
I got a long lecture on how it's "the people of Scotland" that matter and have a vote. Anyone who isn't like Alex Ferguson, Brian Cox the actor, Michael Gove, Andrew Neil don't have a say. We didn't get an answer as to how the Wings over Scotland guy can stand for Holyrood from his home in Bath.....
Remember you are one of "the people of Scotland" until you leave, then you are Michael Gove
650 seats 59 scottish mps. – 9% hardly an imbalance.
I think he's referring to the democratic deficit created by the FPTP system giving parties disproportionate representation compared to the percentage of the population that voted for them.
I agree. If only there was some way of no longer having to deal with this grossly undemocratic system anymore...
650 seats 59 scottish mps. – 9% hardly an imbalance.
you are under an occupying power.....get with the programme
big_n_daft
Free Member
Wings over Scotland guy can stand for Holyrood from his home in Bath…..
Can stand all he likes, best of luck in that cretin getting voted in though....
As can Gove or Andrew Neil. best of luck to them.
In the context of a 300 year history…..
Scottish king wasn’t it?
big_n_daft
Free Member
650 seats 59 scottish mps. – 9% hardly an imbalance.In the context of a 300 year history…..
It's common practice when there's an imbalance of power held to over represent. It's why your rural areas for example have more per person representation than inner city areas.
big_n_daft
Free Member
650 seats 59 scottish mps. – 9% hardly an imbalance.you are under an occupying power…..get with the programme
😆 I'm not one for epi's rhetoric.
Can stand all he likes, best of luck in that cretin getting voted in though….
But his is the most visited website at Holyrood...
He must be a real electoral challenger
I’m not one for epi’s rhetoric.
I hope he's "civic", otherwise I'd worry
Can’t or won’t answer the question?
I don't think an answer exists that would satisfy you so I'm not sure if there is any point in trying. All the options have upsides and downsides so any suggestion anyone makes you will ridicule thinking that you are making an argument against independence.
It doesn't mean that a solution doesn't exist. We simply don't have enough information to make an informed decision.
Once a referendum is called we will likely have more information regarding what the EU is likely to be thinking (they may, of course, stay out of it again but that is less likely this time around).
If they do decide to stay quiet we'll have to wait until after the vote when more details will be available from the EU.
Now it's your turn to say that I'm avoiding the question and you'd be right. However, there's a difference between avoiding questions because not enough information available and avoiding the question because there is literally no way for what your promising to be delivered as with Brexit.
big_n_daft
Free Member
Can stand all he likes, best of luck in that cretin getting voted in though….But his is the most visited website at Holyrood…
He must be a real electoral challenger
😆
tbh, I don't really think what currency we'll use is a question solely for the SNP to answer. It's a wider question that should be put to the scottish people, post independence. In the meantime we use the pound.
Usual high level debate going on I see.
tbh, I don’t really think what currency we’ll use is a question solely for the SNP to answer. It’s a wider question that should be put to the scottish people
Or just ask them if the want to join the eu. That removes any other choices.
I wouldn’t assume a yes vote either. A lot will change.
Sitting down here in England, a few points
- The UK is not an occupying power.
- To class the 'English' as a distinct group different from the Scots is at best very disingenuous. As with all countries, different groups make up a country. There are differences between the groups across the UK.
- We all know that Scotland can leave and run an iScotland. According to official figures, people will be significantly worse off in Scotland if this happens. Although the UK chose to leave the EU and we will all be worse off, so what benefit will the people of Scotland be getting?
- The comparisons with small North European countries is shown that how good Scotland could be, but equally it could be rubbish
- Not everyone in England voted for the loons currently in power. Perhaps we should ask why?
- Joining the EU as an iScotland, will happen - not quickly and it will come with lots of constraints and limits. Also an iScotlands ability to have any impact on the EU will be tiny.
Finally - why is the SNP making such a big deal of independence in the run up to the election for a Scottish Parliament. Everyone knows that the SNP stands for independence. As a cynic you may think that they are doing it as a sightscreen to stop their performance in managing Scotland being evaluated. Screaming loudly about independence drowns out that. The SNP has been in power for a long time, the only way is down. And there is only so long that a party/population will tolerate a leader.
Anyway I won't get a vote, but think we will all be poorer if Scotland leaves the UK (in the same way that we are all poorer having left the EU).
5thElefant
Free Member
tbh, I don’t really think what currency we’ll use is a question solely for the SNP to answer. It’s a wider question that should be put to the scottish peopleOr just ask them if the want to join the eu. That removes any other choices.
I wouldn’t assume a yes vote either. A lot will change.
There should be a referendum on joining the EU post independence, yes.
I don't assume yet, as I've said, post vaccine roll out and post brexit will tell and interesting story as to the longevity of the current swing.
If it sticks beyond those 2 events, independence is inevitable. If it swings back. Well, it's an awful lot longer game most likely.
Stay tuned folks! 😆
You might as well assume Scottish independence.
It’s a yes vote to join the eu that I wouldn’t assume.
I think freedom of movement between Canada, New Zealand and Australia is likely to come quickly. Will the Scottish really choose Europe over countries they have family and cultural links with?
We’ll have to see how the eu changes in the next few years too.
meantime we use the pound.
That's perfectly fine.
But the Brexit comparison stands, all we get is joining the EU will be easy, they will welcome Scotland etc etc
The reality is that you can't join with the pound and don't want to talk about the other options as they both have significant downsides (as does keeping the pound)
It's like Dan Hannan banging on that the UK place in the single market is safe. It wasn't and he was talking tripe. The SNP are just doing the same, it's all upsides, never the downsides and keep it vague to avoid being pinned
I think freedom of movement between Canada, New Zealand and Australia is likely to come quickly.
Two hopes of this, and Bob is dead
5thElefant
Free Member
Will the Scottish really choose Europe over countries they have family and cultural links with?
That assumes that over time there will be meaningful barriers between the UK and the EU.
I think that's unlikely, leaving the EU is basically just creating economic damage for a position that is likely to be aligned to the EU anyhow without a say in how it's run. (which is insane as the uk had a massive say in how the EU was run.)
big_n_daft
Free Member
meantime we use the pound.That’s perfectly fine.
But the Brexit comparison stands, all we get is joining the EU will be easy, they will welcome Scotland etc etc
The reality is that you can’t join with the pound and don’t want to talk about the other options as they both have significant downsides (as does keeping the pound)
It’s like Dan Hannan banging on that the UK place in the single market is safe. It wasn’t and he was talking tripe. The SNP are just doing the same, it’s all upsides, never the downsides and keep it vague to avoid being pinned
You assume a settled scottish state based on SNP policy on day 1. Which just isn't going to be the case. An independent Scotland will develop over time. And it'll have very little to do with SNP policy pre independence.
By definition the creation of a new state is a vague concept.
You either accept that or you don't. We aren't dealing in the absolutes that you want us to here.
I make no grand claims about what an IS will be, it may be a great success, it may fall on it's face.
