That assumes that over time there will be meaningful barriers between the UK and the EU.I think that’s unlikely, leaving the EU is basically just creating economic damage for a position that is likely to be aligned to the EU anyhow without a say in how it’s run.
We could both make our 10 year predictions. We’d both be wrong. The only thing I’m sure of is we’re going to see a lot of change in the next decade.
It’s worth considering more Scots voted for brexit than voted for the SNP. It’s also worth remembering Blair’s plan to turn Scotland into a Labour enclave. Scottish independence could be the end of the SNP. Independence could be the end of Scottish enthusiasm for the EU.
5thElefant
It’s worth considering more Scots voted for brexit than voted for the SNP.
That's not true btw. Before you consider it's a silly comparison, ie single issue vote v parliamentary votes are fundamentally different beasts.
Independence could be the end of Scottish enthusiasm for the EU.
I do accept that as a possibility though.
@Sadmadalan The current increase in demand for an independence campaign is really not led by the higher echelons of the snp but has come from the ordinary independence supporters and grassroots campaigners both within and outwith the SNP.
We voted No last time but would now seriously consider voting Yes. I have reservations about the SNP tendency to centralisation and would need convinced on monetary issues but we need to get away from BoJo and his bunch of clowns.
So you voted No to stay a part of an even more centralised UK?
The parallels with Brexit are strong, a yes vote isn't a vote for something, it's a anti vote.
Every yes supporter paints their hopes and dreams into the future without any clear definition of how to get there and recognition of the contradictory contortions they need to reach their sunlit uplands
There isn't a plan, there isn't a roadmap, the people who take you out of the Union probably won't be around to deliver their promises. You are being sold the same snake oil we were sold for Brexit
The parallels with Brexit are strong, a yes vote isn’t a vote for something, it’s a anti vote.
Every yes supporter paints their hopes and dreams into the future without any clear definition of how to get there and recognition of the contradictory contortions they need to reach their sunlit uplands
There isn’t a plan, there isn’t a roadmap, the people who take you out of the Union probably won’t be around to deliver their promises. You are being sold the same snake oil we were sold for Brexit
And just look where we are now
big_n_daft
Free Member
The parallels with Brexit are strong, a yes vote isn’t a vote for something, it’s a anti vote.Every yes supporter paints their hopes and dreams into the future without any clear definition of how to get there and recognition of the contradictory contortions they need to reach their sunlit uplands
There isn’t a plan, there isn’t a roadmap, the people who take you out of the Union probably won’t be around to deliver their promises. You are being sold the same snake oil we were sold for Brexit
But there will be a democratic unit where the people of scotland get to decide their fate. For good or bad.
Other option, is cling on to the coattails of a tory dominated UK with no say in the matter.
Whether you like it or not, or if it's right or wrong, if a sustained majority want it, it should happen. Do you disagree with that?
But there will be a democratic unit where the people of scotland get to decide their fate. For good or bad.
Other option, is cling on to the coattails of a tory dominated UK with no say in the matter.
This is exactly where I am
And you also ask for a road map. What's the road map for the uk?
Like it or not, this time round, you're going to have to be selling it to us.. What's the UK grand plan? Did seem to be a trade deal with donald trump, but even that's up in the air now.
The parallels with Brexit are strong, a yes vote isn’t a vote for something, it’s a anti vote.
Every yes supporter paints their hopes and dreams into the future without any clear definition of how to get there and recognition of the contradictory contortions they need to reach their sunlit uplands
There isn’t a plan, there isn’t a roadmap, the people who take you out of the Union probably won’t be around to deliver their promises. You are being sold the same snake oil we were sold for Brexit
Not sure abou that - I've got no skin in this game, but the scots could be fast tracked into the EU, the EU have already suggested as such. Theres the issue with the lon boarder with England, but they could simply use whatever fudge gets used for Ireland/NI.
Wouldnt blame the scotts one bit.
And you also ask for a road map. What’s the road map for the uk?
Indeed. I'd go further to say that at least Scotland has a destination in mind. A small country with strong ties to Europe.
The UK has no idea where it is going. Where it wants to go, a World beating nation with unlimited access to other markets without having to bother about what Johnny Foreigner thinks, simply does not and cannot exist.
You're right, there is no roadmap. But voting to remain in the Union is a total punt in the dark whereas voting for Independence at least gives you an idea of the direction you're headed.
I think freedom of movement between Canada, New Zealand and Australia is likely to come quickly.
Oh, a CANZUK fantasist popped over from the Brexit thread. Of course first world economies are desperate for highly-skilled and cost-effective labour. The problem is that the UK lags many of its peers in terms of educational attainment and productivity - if you're in the 'market' for skills, you wouldn't necessarily come shopping to the UK first as you'd probably find cheaper, better elsewhere.
Fortunately for Scotland, it's educational attainment is slightly higher than England's, has good higher education plus is open to inward immigration so a positive step towards economic development rather than simply thinking you can flog stuff to the rest of the world.
It’s a yes vote to join the eu that I wouldn’t assume.
There's certainly some Yes-to-No folk due to them preferring our new status on the outside of the EU. I was hoping we might hear their voices in this discussion. Are you one @5thelefant?
Fortunately for Scotland, it’s educational attainment is slightly higher than England’s,
Really?
open to inward immigration
Remind me where has more diversity, England or Scotland? Which has the highest immigration England or Scotland?
so a positive step towards economic development rather than simply thinking you can flog stuff to the rest of the world.
What is wrong with flogging stuff to the world?
More tartan tinted specs
but the scots could be fast tracked into the EU, the EU have already suggested as such.
With what currency, Merks and Bawbee's or the euro?
Any talk of EU entry is Brexit level fantasy unless you have the SNP policy on this
There’s certainly some Yes-to-No folk due to them preferring our new status on the outside of the EU
I've gone completely the other way from No to Yes. We are quite clearly a different country with very different ideas as to which path our futures should take. Let's have the vote and get it done!
Edit - and I'd happily use the Euro, I really don't see the issue
Whether you like it or not, or if it’s right or wrong, if a sustained majority want it, it should happen. Do you disagree with that?
It's not sustained is it, it's grab a one vote plus majority at a single point in time slam the door shut and go for it. Probably on the back of a politician who may not survive 2021 in post due to the unraveling internal scandals.
Edit – and I’d happily use the Euro, I really don’t see the issue
A perfectly respectable option, I wonder why it's not SNP policy?
I would be quite happy with the Euro as well. The problem for Bojo and his cronies is the more he says no to a referendum the more support will grow for one.
I also see more support growing for a border poll in Ireland. The fudge around the wet border will soon hack folk off.
big_n_daft
Is Scotland under an occupying power?Are you one of those loons running around the woods training for the struggle sharing a well thumbed copy of the anarchist’s cookbook?
The Union was achieved under duress with a massive English army camped at the border to concentrate the minds of the Scots parliamentarians. To sweeten the deal, massive bribes were paid to swing the vote. The people of Scotland rioted at the time, they did not get a vote on the matter.
The have been many revolts several since and the UK govt instituted a system of military depots throughout Scotland to keep the inhabitants suppressed.
The violence of the suppression has not been forgotten, we've seen the UK govt follow this pattern in other recalcitrant countries. We had tanks in Glasgow 100 years ago to remind us.
Our history and languages have been suppressed. Where are all the English towns named Fort this or that and established to keep the population behaving?
Just because we are not being beaten and shot right now doesn't mean that the UK govt wouldn't use those options (ask the Irish). That they have and are likely to use that option is why peaceful methods have been promoted by the SNP.
If Scotland is not an occupied country, then our democratically elected Scottish govt could simply terminate the Union without fear of physical consequences. That fear is quite real.
The movement to regain our independence has been here right from the start, and it has never gone away.
It’s a yes vote to join the eu that I wouldn’t assume.
Why wouldn't the people of Scotland vote for EU membership once independent?
In the EU, out the EU, sounds like the Brexit "what do you want to hear" strategy every day
Our history and languages have been suppressed.
By Scots or the English? I'm sure it was all the nasty English....
Where are all the English towns named Fort this or that and established to keep the population behaving?
Really.... No English place names referring to the fortified nature of the town.....
Just because we are not being beaten and shot right now doesn’t mean that the UK govt wouldn’t use those options (ask the Irish).
Ironic with the Scottish plantation of Ulster and all that....
The violence of the suppression has not been forgotten, we’ve seen the UK govt follow this pattern in other recalcitrant countries. We had tanks in Glasgow 100 years ago to remind us.
Because troops have never been called out to quell unrest in England....
If Scotland is not an occupied country, then our democratically elected Scottish govt could simply terminate the Union without fear of physical consequences.
Is Holyrood the Scottish Vichy regime?
Are there going to be trials after the vote?
Who is the Scottish Che Guevara? Is it that Wings over Scotland guy?
seosamh77
Full Member
And you also ask for a road map. What’s the road map for the uk?
too difficult a question, big and daft?
Where are all the English towns named Fort this or that and established to keep the population behaving?
Id put someone else’s good money on their being far more examples of places in England with their roots in suppressing the English than you’ll find in Scotland to suppress the Scots.
The Euro is a problem.
I was once in favour of the UK joining the Euro, but without fiscal union monetary union removes one of the relievers of economic stress.
Even if the economies are aligned at the time of joining, differing operational or tactical economic objectives get actioned via differing interest rates etc, and to accommodate that exchange rates act as the differential in the economic transmission. Just like locking the diff in a Land Rover is not advisable for long periods as it destroys the transmission so it is with exchange rates.
Joining the Euro without full fiscal union is like building a car with an engine, 4 wheels, gear box and steering but no diff - fine in a straight line, but as soon as you come to a corner either the wheels spin, the transmission breaks, of you don’t turn (none of that is instant but it’s coming).
I think you're going to the same place as checkw, big_n_daft.
You've asked your questions and made your comments in a snide condescending manner. People have answered you in a reasonably restrained manner and you've ignored what you wanted to and continued making the same statements with obvious disdain for all these uppity jocks.
Feel free to keep commenting but I'm done reading what you've got to write.
Id put someone else’s good money on their being far more examples of places in England with their roots in suppressing the English than you’ll find in Scotland to suppress the Scots.
I’ll kick off. I work in Castleford, the site of a Roman fort at the crossing of the Aire.
PS as a Scot living in Yorkshire I was solid No (and no vote) in 2014. Now I’m not sure (but I still don’t get to vote).
too difficult a question, big and daft?
Well it's a long answer, rebalancing the state, move the DoT to the far flung corners of the UK, tackling depravation and health and education inequalities by raising not lowering the mean, creating opportunities for innovation, creating competing centre's of excellence in education and research and then into stuff to sell to the world, look at the opportunities with the likely flight of eligible Hong Kong British passport holders to the UK, strategy for rewilding and flood management, energy efficiency, prize for creating a viable alternative to gas boilers for the older UK housing stock, massive modal shift away from cars etc etc
You’ve asked your questions and made your comments in a snide condescending manner. People have answered you in a reasonably restrained manner and you’ve ignored what you wanted to and continued making the same statements with obvious disdain for all these uppity jocks.
More selective reading
I'm quite happy to acknowledge sensible posts, some people are happy to go for the euro, a perfectly valid option. It's then the pros and cons are understood. What many post are aspirations with some very basic contradictions.
But I doubt you read what gives you cognitive dissonance
I was expecting more of a plan than just a random collection of soundbytes that may or may not happen.
Other option, is cling on to the coattails of a tory dominated UK with no say in the matter.
Not like when we had a labour dominated UK with Scots as PM and chancellor....
In my mind, scotts independence would basicaly just be a rubber stamping excersise straight into the EU. That's already an option on the table. It's pretty much a tick box excercise.
If that option wasn't there, if Scotland wasn't already basically alligned with EU law, and had to join the queue of desperados like Turkey and England, for example, it might not be such an option.
I was expecting more of a plan than just a random collection of soundbytes that may or may not happen.
Have you ever read a manifesto?
Not like when we had a labour dominated UK with Scots as PM and chancellor….
Bit of a straw man argument, that.
Gordon brown was useless as chancellor and useless as PM. He just happend to be scottish.
In my mind, scotts independence would basicaly just be a rubber stamping excersise straight into the EU. That’s already an option on the table. It’s pretty much a tick box excercise.
What are you writing in the currency box?
Bit of a straw man argument, that.
Gordon brown was useless as chancellor and useless as PM. He just happend to be scottish.
Labour had the Scots double act twice
What are you writing in the currency box?
Euro as a guess, sterling/queens head doesnt hold any weight any more, it's just a bit of paper with Lizzies photo on it.
big_n_daft
Free Member
I was expecting more of a plan than just a random collection of soundbytes that may or may not happen.Have you ever read a manifesto?
Yes, I'm just wondering why you put more credence in a tory manifesto than an SNP one.
I've got a healthy distrust of both of them.
Neither are particularly a road map.
In my mind, scotts independence would basicaly just be a rubber stamping excersise straight into the EU. That’s already an option on the table. It’s pretty much a tick box excercise.
The longer the delay in applying, the more Scotland will have diverged from the necessary EU standards and the more difficult re-entry would become. This is part of the reason some folk are impatient with the current SNP leadership.
Of course the EU adopted a policy of zero interference in 2013/14 as they didn't want to get involved in the internal politics of a member state. That could change next time around.
Oh, and there is no "queue" in the traditional sense
big_n_daft
Not like when we had a labour dominated UK with Scots as PM and chancellor….
1 person or a few individuals, is that democracy? I couldn't give a hoot the nationality of people in charge. It's the direction the scottish people want to take us in I'm interested in, for good or bad.
EU membership isn't really a reason to vote for independence btw. that's a question that'll get settled after the fact one way or the other(it will need debated and voted on), and most likely will take time, the UK has seen to that, the damage has been done.
Current state of affairs is that Scotland is on the outside looking in.
Question is do we want to head down the road Westminster and the tories are wanting to take us...
Hate to say it but the leave campaign and the yes campaign are similar in that they are full of promises with very little detail.
The difference for me is that brexit was always going to be rubbish, where as independence doesn't have to be.
I won't vote for it without some clear road map in place however. And the diehards would do well to remember that it's exactly the like of myself (previous no voters) they need to persuade. Saying the detail can be sorted after the vote is not going to cut it, it's exactly the same as what happened with brexit.
tpbiker
Full Member
Hate to say it but the leave campaign and the yes campaign are similar in that they are full of promises with very little detail.The difference for me is that brexit was always going to be rubbish, where as independence doesn’t have to be.
I won’t vote for it without some clear road map in place however. And the diehards would do well to remember that it’s exactly the like of myself (previous no voters) they need to persuade. Saying the detail can be sorted after the vote is not going to cut it, it’s exactly the same as what happened with brexit.
You'll be voting no then, cause if someone comes out with a definitive road map and says x y z will happen etc.. they are talking bollocks tbh.
The road to independence will be faced with plenty of obstacles and events and let's face it, rUK belligerence..
I’ve got a healthy distrust of both of them
The wise distrust all manifesto's, Blair had an EU referendum in all of his.....
EU membership isn’t really a reason to vote for independence btw
But many cite it as the reason for voting yes
tbh I view the recent swing in the polls as more a vote of no confidence in uk governance over the last couple of years, and in particular this last year than anything else.
As I say, i'll be interesting if it swings back or not. tbd.
I won’t vote for it without some clear road map in place
Any "Road map" isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Whatever we get at first will represent the views of the controlling political party (currently the SNP) even if they've chosen to include some influence from other bodies, constitutional convention etc. Future governments can't be bound by that any more than the policies of one Westminster government can bind its successors. You're going to have to take a helicopter view of this and look at current direction of travel of the Westminster and Holyrood governments and then make up your mind which is closer to your preference, even if you don't fully agree with either.
