You can't argue that English nationalism doesn't have xenophobic factors contributing to it, certainly it was a major marketing tool in the Brexit campaign
Nationalism will always have traction with racists & xenophobia is a powerful motivator, how politicians use it can be dangerous: hysteria over migrants in the channel has certainly been jumped on by many MPs, Patel included.
The SNP seem much less blatant about it, but you'd be foolish to say it wouldn't be a factor in any campaign, being anti English is a lot easier when Johnson with his own history of offhand biggotry, towards Scotland & others makes it much easier.
Id like to think the current Tories are now taking the threat of indy seriously, but looking at the more brexity ones, it's pretty obvious they couldn't give 2 shits about whether Scotland stays. And these MPs are steering the country right now.
So what happens next if the SNP get a majority at holyrood in May is what matters
I'm not sure I see much opposition from many tories if Sturgeon pushes for another ref
This idiot is saying the conservatives have a BAME MP who is at 5/2 to be PM in 2021, which clearly shows that the issue is far more nuanced than the binary world you inhabit
You're the one who is saying they can't be racist because they have brown people in the cabinet which is quite a binary way of looking at things.
I'm the one who is saying it's more nuanced than that.
I’m not sure I see much opposition from many tories if Sturgeon pushes for another ref
It doesn't need opposition from many tories, just the one. Boris Johnston.
You’re the one who is saying they can’t be racist because they have brown people in the cabinet which is quite a binary way of looking at things.
I’m the one who is saying it’s more nuanced than that.
You are misrepresenting, I haven't opined on it other than to say that defining everyone who votes conservative as openly xenophobic and racist and any BAME members of government as either token useful idiots or just as xenophobic and racist is clearly questionable and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny
If there are nuances in your sweeping statements then please elaborate
The SNP seem much less blatant about it, but you’d be foolish to say it wouldn’t be a factor in any campaign, being anti English is a lot easier when Johnson with his own history of offhand biggotry, towards Scotland & others makes it much easier.
I live in Scotland and have an English accent and have never had any anti-English issues.
Oh, and I'm an SNP member.
kimbers
The SNP seem much less blatant about it, but you’d be foolish to say it wouldn’t be a factor in any campaign, being anti English is a lot easier...
This tired old trope.
It's really much simpler than that.
It's normal for a country to be independent, and not at all normal for one to be ruled by its next door neighbour.
With the train crash of Boris/Brexit/CoVid/Corruption it has become even more apparent to Scots that severing connections with England is something we should be doing ASAP.
Racism isn't a factor in seeking independence. Scotland's problem is an ideological and very nasty sectarian one (which does not support independence BTW)
Youd be naive to think it wont be a problem, even if its just knee-jerk dislike of Tories (something Im guilty of too)
nationalism & xenophobia will always be related to a greater or lesser degree and the sectarian thing is a good point- Im probably coloured by my mums family whos politics & rangers-celtic support overlap as you'd expect- my uncle now lives in england and his van has a massive Rangers union jack in the drivers cab, his cousin a celtic fan whos facebook page is just 100% green & white (what used to be friendly rivalry seems a lot less friendly these days)
what used to be friendly rivalry seems a lot less friendly these days
I don't think that's the case, brought up in deepest Ayrshire, it's always surrounded me, so I have some knowledge.
As ever, social media brings the scum to the surface, so you'll see them if you're in the likes of ****ter. There's more of a political nature to the divide now, even more so with indyref and brexit, but most folks I know who happen to follow either side, myself included, aren't really interested in any of the nonsense, never have been.
I couldn't give a flying **** about ulster, the IRA, the UVF, battles on rivers, it's aw pish.
I'm just a football fan, that's it.
There's a lot more Yes supporters within the Rangers support than you'd think, they just don't go shouting about it, that's all.
Some folk need the tribal thing, it's weird, but twas ever thus.
Apropos of nothing
I'm English, went to uni in Wales, got more abuse off Welsh nationalists there for being English than I ever did in Scotland on our annual trips to visit family
No one is really bothered about the anti English thing up here any more, the odd nitwit that puts a daft feather on his head and a skirt on to watch football a few times a year, but thankfully no one really takes any notice of them.
kimbers
...what used to be friendly rivalry seems a lot less friendly these days...
It wasn't that friendly when I lived in Glasgow in the late 1960s, or should I say it was an excuse for gangs of thugs to set upon some innocent who happened to be wearing the wrong colours. They still used razors in those days.
I had a few unpleasant encounters when challenged as to which team I supported. It didn't help that my standard response was that real men don't ponce about kicking a ball but play shinty. I'm politer now. 🙂
The "sectarian" thing is just political football up here these days. It really doesn't pervade society in much of a negative way at all, that really ended in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Which is when it was bad. (2001 is when catholics reached occupational parity(which was a water shed moment imo) as yer man tom devine reckons and I'd agree, from personal anecdotal evidence of relatives). The last particularly nasty element of Scottish culture, ie the scheme gang culture(which was territorial and had nothing to do with the sectarian divide) is largely gone too. It's a different planet from what I grew up in in the 80's and 90s in that respect and died away in the 00s there, there was alot of good work done... In general people talk about some issues in scottish society as if they are a big thing, but they are talking nonsense, Scottish society in the 2020s is pretty gentile compared to what it was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago.
There's a lot more talk about things these days though...And alot of people mistake banter for actual issues. If people think it's worse these days, they are living in an imagined reality.
In general it's a fairly unified society I think. Though I guess you'll struggle to see that if you are focusing on extremely small fringes.
IMO people focus too much in the negative and fail to see how far it's come.
So how do we think this will pan out now?
I know there’s a school of thought that says it’s now inevitable and will happen quickly.
But they’re is part of me that thinks people may have had enough for a few years and will just want stability. Even if it is actually ****
Independence is inevitable in less than five years
Unless sturgeon pushes hard with everything possible towards independence the SNP will split
Don’t know. But I got some Christmas Laphroaig that entitles me to a square foot of Islay peat bog or something. Scots born’n’bred, but a Tyke for 28 years, so owning property in Scotland might be a good idea. Register it as my home address if the time comes. 😉
You can have a square foot of my garden for a bottle of whisky 😀
SNP wont split, not a chance.
The Uber nationalists may moan about Sturgeons careful approach, but they'd be mad to split, back to being a shortbread sideshow like they were in the last century.
Independence is inevitable in less than five years
For Scotland or do you mean Shetland with Doric state joining them?
Unless sturgeon pushes hard with everything possible towards independence the SNP will split
I'd agree with this. There seems to be an increasingly vocal faction within the pro independent movement, who are becoming frustrated with a perceived lack of action from the SNP. I can only see that growing.
thegreatape
You can have a square foot of my garden for a bottle of whisky 😀
Now that’s a very kind offer, but do you know what you’re letting yourself in for?
My posts on here are fairly moderate, but I’m a loud mouthed, aggressive, opinioned swine in real life. And that’s hoe those that love me (or in the case of my CEO, promote me) view me.
That’s fine, I’ll allocate you a square foot on the boundary with my neighbour, you’ll get on great 😀
Doric state
Pretty sure Greece is already independent....
Unless sturgeon pushes hard with everything possible towards independence the SNP will split
😆😆😆
SNP wont split, not a chance.
The Uber nationalists may moan about Sturgeons careful approach, but they’d be mad to split, back to being a shortbread sideshow like they were in the last century.
Its not just them - the SNP is suffering from being too long in power and factionalism is arising.
Its amazing how destructive some politicians can be to their own cause.
The Uber nationalists may moan about Sturgeons careful approach, but they’d be mad to split, back to being a shortbread sideshow like they were in the last century.
Sturgeon has done an amazing job of attracting the undecideds and some of those that voted no last time. A fear is that her approach doesn’t have the strength in depth within the party and that successive leaders may be less attractive to the switherers. It’s a difficult one.
And it will be made more difficult if Starmer is able to improve the labour offering up here.
Pretty sure Greece is already independent….
This is the sort of answer expected from the 'rood.
Last time I checked there were no other national languages on their website or communications.
The cultural argument of the SNP applies (it seems) to Doric and Erse speaking cultures as it does to Gaelic.
Moreover the economics have the same arguments ...
Taking a taxi driver straw poll in Aberdeen and Shetland a common complaint I hear is the rood has just moved a parliament slightly closer and they are still just taking more than they put back.
I'm not saying that is true or not but it is a perception hence the3 whole "but what about North Sea Oil" and how a independent Scotland can then refuse to acknowledge requests for independence by areas that feel under represented?
stevextc - that’s the “if Brexit is good then Scots independence is better” argument. And to some extent it may hold water.
The EU is a private member’s trading club that you do offer up some sovereignty to join (just like any club, even the rugby club has rules).
The UK involves handing over far more sovereignty and having less say in how it’s run (unless you’re English cos your the biggest nation in the UK).
It all ends up being about balances cog benefits and losses
If, and it's a very big if, those areas wished to set sail, then I wouldn't see any issue.
But taxi drivers? Really?
It can only be hoped that the recent changes at the NEC will flush out more of those who have been using the SNP to further their own political goals rather than driving towards independence. That fact that some have already jumped to the Green Party rather proves that this has been a good thing. Controlling the discussion, for instance not allowing conference to debate any plan B, is not a sign of an open party.
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic.
If, and it’s a very big if, those areas wished to set sail, then I wouldn’t see any issue.
Shetland voted 22:2 already. Between Shetland and Aberdeenshire that's a very large chunk of tax revenue. However I think the "sod off if you want" attitude may also contribute.
But taxi drivers? Really?
They vote like everyone else...
They are probably biased in Aberdeen as the lack of the bypass affected them disproportionally and by their estimation Aberdeen were paying in a good chunk of revenue but barely less distant to Edinburgh than London. Again though the "sod off if you want" doesn't help.
The bypass is symbolic ... (other than being needed) as this was one thing they'd expected to change with devolution along with cultural issues such as lack of Doric recognition.
the bypass is 15yrs too late, whilst convenient for some it is bit of a white elephant now.
IGM
stevextc – that’s the “if Brexit is good then Scots independence is better” argument. And to some extent it may hold water.
Perhaps, though I'm not arguing from a political sense so much as pointing out the arguments are the same and economically it's very significant.
One thing I'd have sympathy (being English so not wanting to stick my nose in but might prompt me to move) for is Scotland leaving the UK and joining the EU... but as seperate economies Shetland/Aberdeenshire might benefit less.
If you take the population of Shetland (22,000?) and divide oil revenue then everyone is a millionaire type thing.
the bypass is 15yrs too late, whilst convenient it is bit of a white elephant now.
That's certainly what I hear.... (there may or may not be good reasons, I'm just repeating what voters tell me)
tpbiker
Full Member
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic
I agree. I mean, silly things like Brexit, Trump being president and a global pandemic couldn't have happened in the last 5 years.
Oh. Wait.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/scotland-indyref-2/page/123/#post-11641382
Independence for Shetland, really? It’s a lovely place and the council did well out of the oil levy they negotiated (although they were very short sighted). Shetland rely on the mainland for so much. As for Aberdeen/Doric independence that is just a chip on the shoulder against central belt dominance. The SNP are the biggest party up here.
Shetland rely on the mainland for so much.
Sounds a familiar argument.
tpbiker
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic.
What do you base that on?
The Iron Curtain countries seemed to have managed the transition within weeks from the might of the USSR.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
As for Aberdeen/Doric independence that is just a chip on the shoulder against central belt dominance. The SNP are the biggest party up here.
Well most places now but
Sounds a familiar argument.
That's kinda my point. The whole thing seems very familiar and I wonder if there won't be unintended consequences. Personally I'd be sad to see Scotland leave but I can understand and be sympathetic but then in the same way I'd see Shetland and maybe Aberdeenshire wanting more direct returns on oil revenue.
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic.
It took the Czechs and Slovaks 5 months (though I can't see the current SNP leadership even presenting a choice in that timescale).
The Iron Curtain countries seemed to have managed the transition within weeks from the might of the USSR.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
It took the Czechs and Slovaks 5 months (though I can’t see the current SNP leadership even presenting a choice in that timescale).
If we can't sort transport infrastructure projects in a decade what makes you think we could sort an entirely new country and civil service five years from now?
I mean it's obviously possible but would require an amount of effort and collaboration between departments and parties that I just don't have the confidence would happen.
Nothing to do with capability but feel free to continue pushing the "too wee too poor too stupid" trope.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
I hate it when people use this , its scottish independence's " get brexit done " , used to dismiss people when they ask questions which might not give a pro independence answer . Sometimes its the correct answer but if your ultimate goal is to get people who voted no last time to change their mind its a rubbish way of doing it .
The Iron Curtain countries seemed to have managed the transition within weeks from the might of the USSR.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
I'm not even going to bother arguing the toss about why the scottish situation is completely different to the disintegration of the ussr, not worth my time.
I'm very very confident we won't be independent within 5 years, but rather than argue about it on here, let's put 200 quid on it?
If it's inevitable you'll bite my hand off for that bet..
As I've said, the current SNP leadership is unlikely to even have put forward the question before then.
