Personally, even though you would vote yes. I don’t think you should get one. (unless you are on the existing electoral role, or move here pre next ref.)
That would be a change from the previous referendum. Even if you were on the electoral roll you still weren't able to vote. You had to actually be living in Scotland at the time.
Do you think people living abroad who are on the electoral roll should be allowed to vote this time?
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’t
Has it? England welcomes proportionately more than Scotland. If the people of England were so xenophobic you would have thought the reverse would be true
BruceWee
Free Member
Do you think people living abroad who are on the electoral roll should be allowed to vote this time?
Possibly, but time limited though. I'd need to think more about it to take a firm position.
But I know uk rules are you can vote in uk elections up till 15 years after if you were on the electoral roll, but you aren't allowed to vote in devolved or local elections. The latter uk rule would tend to exclude it, as essentially a scottish ref is devolved democracy. I could see an argument for people with recent residency say up to 5 years though. I think 15 years is pushing it.
big_n_daft
Free Member
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn’tHas it? England welcomes proportionately more than Scotland. If the people of England were so xenophobic you would have thought the reverse would be true
More to do with point of entry and economic balance than anything else.
Incidentally, I don't think England is overly xenophobic. I do think it has it's issues, but so does every country, including scotland.
The westminster government and a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist. Brexit! Immigration polices etc etc etc. Its utterly disgusting
You’re assuming it’s easy to get citizenship in all countries. It’s not. I’ve got a couple of options open to me but not everyone will have. Many people will be forced to return home before they are ready.
I'm not, although I note its easier to become Swedish (as per your example) than British; and of course not every ex-pat even needs to work to remain where they are (and if there was an entitlement to vote may not be voting in "your" interests). I don't believe we will see anyone forced to return either to the UK or from the UK to the EU, although of course many many elect to return because it is in their own interests to do so.
Scotland is not xenophobic but it is currently governed by xenophobes (Westminster, just to be clear).
The point where I decided I wasn’t moving back to a Westminster governed Scotland was when I heard government ministers suggesting schools should make lists of foreign born children. That was chilling.
You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.
So to be clear, you were suggesting (although you've now retracted it) that Ex pats should get a vote, because they have a lot at stake, and might "have" to come back if there was a No vote; but if there was a Yes vote you would want to come back? I'm sure you can see why people are confused... (FWIW I'm not sure that ex pats have more to lose/gain now than in 2014 -- one of the uncertainties in '14 was future EU membership; your perspective on those risks may be different from other Ex Pats).
tjagain
Full Member
The westminster government and a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist. Brexit! Immigration polices etc etc etc. Its utterly disgustingPosted 6 minutes ago
What's a fair proportion? 5%, 10%, 50%?
big_n_daft
Please start a separate thread if you are introducing this tripe (see what I did there?)
Yes I saw it - kudos 🙂
But I also started a separate thread a while back. 🙂
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/independence-for-the-north-of-england/
You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?
Currently devolved. I'm assuming nothing.
You do realise that education (and therefore what teachers make lists of) is a devolved issue, and so the diatribe of a westminster minister is largely irrelevant?
I do realise. Nevertheless, to hear a minister spouting such blatantly xenophobic crap was still chilling. You think the UK government's xenophobia is limited to it's education ministry?
So to be clear, you were suggesting (although you’ve now retracted it) that Ex pats should get a vote, because they have a lot at stake, and might “have” to come back if there was a No vote; but if there was a Yes vote you would want to come back? I’m sure you can see why people are confused… (FWIW I’m not sure that ex pats have more to lose/gain now than in 2014 — one of the uncertainties in ’14 was future EU membership; your perspective on those risks may be different from other Ex Pats).
I have at no point on this thread said anything other than I think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. I haven't retracted anything.
What I have said is that it's easier to make the case that expats should have the vote.
I explained in my first post but I'll reiterate it. In the first referendum expats wouldn't have been affected by the outcome. They would not have been stripped of their UK citizenship and as far as everyone knew the UK was going to stay in the EU.
Now people who are from Scotland but make a living working in various EU countries are going to be directly affected. There are far more jobs available in the EU for EU citizens than there are for non-EU citizens.
On balance, I'm think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. However, if people want to make the case that you should be allowed to vote if you are on the electoral register as well then that is a valid point and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland. Is this an unusual concentration, or is Wings Over Scotland perhaps more influential than people have been suggesting here?
ChrisL
Full Member
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland.
You work with loonballs. 😆
I think he's cornered the market for independence supporters who are also terrified of transgender people.
Try asking them what they think of JK Rowling.
Well that's in one way a bit of a pity because mostly they're decent people, but in another way it's a relief as when they get onto the subject of politics it's a full on list of grievances and borderline conspiracy theories. It's not a good look for the cause of Scottish independence.
To be fair, I think Wings did some good work in the run up to the 2014 ref, the wee blue book etc.
But recently he has disappeared down some sort of weird anti SNP, anti trans? black hole. Half his posts are about personal battles he is having with some corrupt organisation or another.
I work in a software engineering company with 11 staff. Of them, 3 seem to be followers of Wings Over Scotland. Is this an unusual concentration, or is Wings Over Scotland perhaps more influential than people have been suggesting here?
Anything else odd about the demographics of your office? I'm guessing thats a young, predominantly male, mostly straight, single, cis-male environment?
Do I think WoS is followed by approximately 27% of the Scottish population? No, I doubt 27% of the Scottish population have even heard of WoS. That said - its probably got more influence in the above demographic than some people here are giving it credit for.
Aye, some of the stuff on there in 2013 was very good indeed, balanced, considered.
Anything but that now, however.
I have at no point on this thread said anything other than I think the rules of the previous referendum should be followed. I haven’t retracted anything.
Well, in fairness, you changed your mind half way through the post you started with this sentence:
I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.
I explained in my first post but I’ll reiterate it. In the first referendum expats wouldn’t have been affected by the outcome. They would not have been stripped of their UK citizenship and as far as everyone knew the UK was going to stay in the EU.
Well Better Together would definitely have argued otherwise. They'd have said Scotland won't be in the EU and you'll then have to decide to become "rUKish" rather than apply for any future Scottish passport or lose your rights. Of course you may have chosen to dismiss that as project fear - but in the absence of any firm proposal on Indy Scot's future relationship with the EU is you are guessing that you will have the rights you want. Whilst its clear what the SNPs position is, and the EU are likely to be positive about that there is the major issue of the land border with England which post 1st Jan may present a significant obstacle in any negotiations since it would be outside the EU...
poly
Anything else odd about the demographics of your office? I’m guessing thats a young, predominantly male, mostly straight, single, cis-male environment?Do I think WoS is followed by approximately 27% of the Scottish population? No, I doubt 27% of the Scottish population have even heard of WoS. That said – its probably got more influence in the above demographic than some people here are giving it credit for.
I work for an all-male company with most of us being middle aged. Everyon'e white, cis, most or all are straight, everyone's university educated. The 3 Wings Over Scotland fans are all in their late 40s or early 50s.
Well, in fairness, you changed your mind half way through the post you started with this sentence:
You realise it's possible to see the merit in an argument but on balance decide against it? I know people tend towards absolutes these days but it is possible to see validity in an argument but not agree with the conclusion.
Well Better Together would definitely have argued otherwise. They’d have said Scotland won’t be in the EU and you’ll then have to decide to become “rUKish” rather than apply for any future Scottish passport or lose your rights.
The point is that no one would have been stripped of their UK citizenship if Scotland had voted Yes. Not even Better Together tried to argue that point. Children born in iScotland may not have been eligible for UK citizenship but if you were born in the UK you would have had a UK passport.
No matter the result of the previous referendum Scottish expats would have still been able to live and work in EU countries (until Brexit, of course) so it was entirely correct that they shouldn't have a vote.
Now there is more of a case that they should have a say but overall I don't think they should.
BruceWee
Free MemberScotland is not xenophobic
Correct, we're far too busy hating slightly different scottish people.
That's alright because elsewhere in the UK
a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist
A smaller proportion in Scotland. We are not without our weegie bams 🙂 And our government is not xenophobic and racist 🙂
a fair proportion of the people are openly xenophobic and racist
What's a "fair proportion"?
5,10,20,30,40% ?
What’s a “fair proportion”?
Dunno, probably about the same percentage that voted Tory in the last election.
Dunno, probably about the same percentage that voted Tory in the last election.
Really, what about the members of the party, the elected representatives etc
Does Rishi know he's a xenophobe and openly racist?
So BruceWee at 40+%, what's TJ's "fair proportion"?
Does Rishi know he’s a xenophobe and openly racist?
I don't know if he knows he is, but he is.
Our community’s history of antiracist struggle in Britain can show us another way to confront these issues. When Indian migrants first arrived in Britain in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, they joined forces with recently arrived African-Caribbean migrants to form a unified “black” community of resistance. They responded to state neglect, racial violence and racist policing with a range of radical self-help initiatives, run through organisations such as the United Coloured People’s Alliance, the Black Liberation Front and the British Black Panther Movement. This is a story of community and class solidarity based on shared resistance. It should be recovered to prepare us for the fight ahead.
Not sure how this makes Rishi a xenophobe and openly racist
You don't find it strange that the entirety of the government's minority representation comes not just from a single ethnic group but a single ethnic group who come via Africa where they saw the local population as being beneath them?
Fair enough.
At what level are you drawing the line? Plenty of other minority MPs in the government.
bruce you're having a bit of a nightmare today probably best not to bite on BnDs bait! 😆 And step away.
Plenty of other minority MPs in the government.
What other minorities are represented in the government? Not the backbenches but the actual government?
bruce you’re having a bit of a nightmare today probably best not to bite on BnDs bait! 😆 And step away.
I've started drinking. I'm in this for the long haul 🙂
haha 😆
Just to argue with myself now, Alok Sharma's family did not come from India via East Africa so it's only 2 out of 3.
Nadhim Zadawi just on C4 news
Kemi Badenoch
big_n_daft
Free Member
Nadhim Zadawi just on C4 news
Business minister insists ‘all the protocols were followed’ with government PPE contracts 😆 😆 😆
Boris shows his love for Scotland.
This is doing the rounds again.
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He's the gift that never stops giving. 🙂
And then this reappeared
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(Not his poem, he published it though)
Business minister insists ‘all the protocols were followed’ with government PPE contracts
Well he would say that wouldn't he, I imagine the shredders at going at max speed at the moment
Anyway does Nadhim Zadawi know he's a xenophobe and openly racist?
The betting sites are giving odds of 5/2 the Rishi will be PM by 2021, all very xenophobic and openly racist
Anyway does Nadhim Zadawi know he’s a xenophobe and openly racist?
The betting sites are giving odds of 5/2 the Rishi will be PM by 2021, all very xenophobic and openly racist
Do you also think someone can't be racist because some of their best friends are black?
There are two reasons that Rishi and Patel are in such high profile positions when, as you said, they have other ethnic minorities they could have chosen.
One is that idiots will say, 'See, they're not racist. They have brown people in the cabinet.'
The second is that they come from a background that means there is a good likelihood they will have questionable attitudes towards people's roles in society.
You can't make assumptions about people based on their backgrounds. However, once they start behaving in a certain way you can look at their backgrounds by way of explanation.
Thump nails it.
There are two reasons that Rishi and Patel are in such high profile positions when, as you said, they have other ethnic minorities they could have chosen.
Obviously other reasons are a lot more likely
They have the support of other MPs and grandees of the party
They have some talent (ok with Patel it's a bit harder to see that)
They have ideas and drive (ok, some of the ideas you might not like)
You can’t make assumptions about people based on their backgrounds. However, once they start behaving in a certain way you can look at their backgrounds by way of explanation.
You assume anyone who votes conservative is a xenophobic open racist and that the BAME members of the government are either the same or useful idiots
TJ assumes "a fair proportion" of rUK are openly xenophobic and racist
One is that idiots will say, ‘See, they’re not racist. They have brown people in the cabinet.’
This idiot is saying the conservatives have a BAME MP who is at 5/2 to be PM in 2021, which clearly shows that the issue is far more nuanced than the binary world you inhabit
Or do you still insist he must be a xenophobic open racist or an useful idiot
