There's no such thing as a Scottish citizen yet, so it's a question that can only be answered by the people that live here.
You're the one that's preoccupied with an attempt to define a Scottish ethnicity or nativism here. Which is irrelevant to the independence question. If you live and make a life here, that is the defining factor. And rightly so. Citizenship follows this discussion.
Ah; I get it Big n daft! You original point was aimed at me and I assumed you thought I didn't know he was Scottish? My objection to him is that he is an arse; who despite being born into very challenging background, has chosen to adopt the worst aspects of conservatism despite having an idea of the social chaos it creates (See also Baroness Ruthie of Buckhaven) Nothing to do with his race,but you seem a wee bit obsessed with your conviction that all nationalists are anti English?
During the 2014 referendum in Scotland eligibility to vote was on existing electoral roles. If you were registered in Scotland you got to vote. I recall a fair bit of moaning from expats, but I think that was the only way to do it.
Oddly I could have registered and voted in the last Kiwi election, I just met the criteria. I chose not to, as that didn't seem right, as I would not be subject to the result.
As an aside, 16 is the voting age in Scottish elections (but not to elect to UK parliament) that might make quite a difference next time!
That wings guy is a effing roaster
Preaching to the converted and repelling those we could win over.
That wings guy is a effing roaster
Preaching to the converted and repelling those we could win over.
That's OK he's not one of "the people of Scotland" you can disown him. Well unless he achieves his ambition to be an MSP, commute from Somerset will be a pain though.
Having said that could anyone left me know if you have to be eligible to vote to become an MSP? He might be planning to move and become one of "the people of Scotland" to be eligible to be a MSP
you seem a wee bit obsessed with your conviction that all nationalists are anti English?
I thought we had settled that Gove was a Scot, but not one of "the people of Scotland" unless he heads back to live north of the border. I think we have established that Gove is disliked by some posters. As is the "Wings over Scotland" MSP hopeful.
So instead of deciding eligibility based on established conventions such as national election eligibility (which would be easy to extrapolate in the Indy scenario and is a very fair one), you come up with this bizarre arbitrary ruleset, and call it "people of Scotland", where can I find this IndyRef Kool-aid? What's next, reducing the voting age to 15?
There was a lot of moaning during Brexit for excluding EU citizens from the vote, yet now this "People of Scotland" ruleset will exclude expats, I guess my mental gymnastics are not strong enough for this one.
baboonz
Free Member
So instead of deciding eligibility based on established conventions such as national election eligibility (which would be easy to extrapolate in the Indy scenario and is a very fair one), you come up with this bizarre arbitrary ruleset, and call it “people of Scotland”, where can I find this IndyRef Kool-aid? What’s next, reducing the voting age to 15?There was a lot of moaning during Brexit for excluding EU citizens from the vote, yet now this “People of Scotland” ruleset will exclude expats, I guess my mental gymnastics are not strong enough for this one.
You don't need to do mental gymnastics, just look at the rules for the last yin, precedent has been set.
There was a lot of moaning during Brexit for excluding EU citizens from the vote,
Westminster decision not Holyrood
The "people of Scotland" is very clear and longstanding. These are the people who have made the country their home. Nothing to do with ethnicity real or perceived.
its one of the differences between blood and soil nationalism and civic nationalism
No one serious thinks ex pats should get a vote!
Edit - apart from those ex pats that meet the criteria of which there are some ( of a variety of ethnicities) but the idea that anoyone who claims scots heritage could vote is absurd
The Tories have really screwed up.
They have more to worry about than just Scotland now.
Now there's an independence for Northern England campaign which seems to be gaining momentum.
And as for NI, they have a new POTUS who identifies with Ireland - all their talk of breaking the Good Friday Agreement and starving the Irish is going to bounce back. Easy trade deal with the USA? Ha!
I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.
In the last one, had it been successful, I would not have been affected because I would have been able to keep my British passport. My standing in the country I'm living in wouldn't have been affected.
In this case, if the vote is successful, I should be able to apply for a Scottish passport and hopefully be a citizen of a country that is part of the EU.
Overall I think it would be best to stick to the rules of the previous referendum but all I'm saying is that the expats have a lot more at stake in this referendum compared to the last one.
I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.
In the last one, had it been successful, I would not have been affected because I would have been able to keep my British passport. My standing in the country I’m living in wouldn’t have been affected.
In this case, if the vote is successful, I should be able to apply for a Scottish passport and hopefully be a citizen of a country that is part of the EU.
Overall I think it would be best to stick to the rules of the previous referendum but all I’m saying is that the expats have a lot more at stake in this referendum compared to the last one.
I'm not sure the expats have any more at stake. In both scenarios you would be able to get a Scottish passport
I’m not sure the expats have any more at stake. In both scenarios you would be able to get a Scottish passport
Many of us have careers that require us to be able to move freely in Europe. After the first indyref, if Yes had won, we wouldn't have been forced to give up our British passports (we didn't think the UK was going to vote to leave the EU, remember).
Now, if Yes wins, we'll have access to a passport that will still allow us to move freely in the EU. If Scotland votes No then we won't and our careers will be over unless we can find another passport.
We definitely have more at stake this time around.
expats have a lot more at stake in this referendum compared to the last one.
What do you mean this referendum? The leadership of the SNP won't countenance any scenario other than the UK Govt granting a Section 30. Why on earth would Boris, any replacement Tory PM or future Labour PM want to do that? Meanwhile, Free Public Transport For All!! Thanks a bunch NEC.
still no right to a vote tho unless you meet the criteria.
I am sorry but unless you live here or have lived here recently then its quite right you get no say.
I saw the figure of 75 000 000 people who claim to be ex pats
Want a say - make the commitment.
Want a say – make the commitment.
Ironically, if Scotland votes No, many of us will be forced to make the commitment against our will.
Now there’s an independence for Northern England campaign which seems to be gaining momentum
Please start a separate thread if you are introducing this tripe (see what I did there?)
You'll be buying Yr Hen Ogledd T-shirts and flying St Cuthbert's banner next
Want a say – make the commitment.
That Wings over Scotland MSP hopeful disagrees, he has lots to say
@BruceWee I'm not sure what you mean. We've left the EU. Surely any career decision has already been made?
BruceWee
Free Member
Now, if Yes wins, we’ll have access to a passport that will still allow us to move freely in the EU. If Scotland votes No then we won’t and our careers will be over unless we can find another passport.We definitely have more at stake this time around.
Eh? You do know there's the brexit thing? The EU free movement is gone from the british passport after new year....
The “people of Scotland” is very clear and longstanding. These are the people who have made the country their home. Nothing to do with ethnicity real or perceived.
I rarely agree with TJ, but I definitely agree with him on this.
If you want to vote, live here (and pay your taxes).
If you are already in a job then most likely your work will have made arrangements for you to be able to keep it, in which case you'll probably be alright assuming that the rules surrounding your visa don't change.
However, when it comes time to move on to the next job, either because a project finishes or through redundancy, if you've got a non-EU passport you are going to find it a lot more difficult to find work.
Big n daft - the wings guy has no chance of becoming and MSP even if he is eligible which I doubt but cannot be bothered to look up. He is on the fringes as an outlier anyway and largely discredited.
BruceWee
Free Member
However, when it comes time to move on to the next job, either because a project finishes or through redundancy, if you’ve got a non-EU passport you are going to find it a lot more difficult to find work.
Which you won't have after January? You're making no sense here.
big_n_daft
Free Member
That Wings over Scotland MSP hopeful disagrees, he has lots to say
You seem to be the only one putting any relevance in him here.
In my view it should depend on the topics of the vote. Parliament elections, referenda on independence - residents as defined by those on electoral role.
I would have liked to vote on the Kiwi flag referendum - I think that is an issue that impacts on all Kiwis, even those living overseas - just to illustrate the difference.
I think I think (searching brain archive) there was legislation in the Scottish Parliament re suffrage for Scotland referendum in 2014 - there will likely be same if it happens again - with the associated public consultation.
Or we could let TJ decide?
I think I may be on to something - we could issue you with a tartan Sorting Bonnet TJ!
we could issue you with a tartan Sorting Bonnet TJ!
He'd be a Hufflehuff, deffo.
Ironically, if Scotland votes No, many of us will be forced to make the commitment against our will.
Bruce - at that point, would it not be easier to say that Scotland/UK no longer represents your interests/lifestyle/desires and apply for citizenship in whichever country it is you have chosen to make your home? It seems like a false argument to say "I should have a say whether a country I don't live it should do something, so that I can continue to choose not to live in it".
Which you won’t have after January?
Yes, after January UK expats won't have an EU passport. Or is that not what you're asking?
I'm struggling to understand what you are saying here as well.
Let's try this. You have a job on a project working in Sweden. The project is ending so you start looking around for the next job. You see jobs advertised in Germany, Spain, and Italy but you can't apply to any of them because they all require EU citizenship. Your project in Sweden ends and you have to go back to the UK because as a non-EU citizen without a job you are not allowed to stay there.
This is the type of scenario I'm talking about. Obviously it's still not 100% clear what will happen if there is a no-deal Brexit. It could be you get fired from your job in Sweden and kicked out the country immediately.
Even if the WA is ratified it's not clear if UK citizens will be allowed to move freely between EU countries. Most likely you will be tied to the country you are already in.
Unless the hardest of hard Brexits comes to pass all the UK expats won't immediately be shipped back to the UK on January 1st. Those of us who don't secure EU passports will most likely drip back to the UK over the next few years.
^^^
I'm struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn't be an automatic process for a start.
Bruce – at that point, would it not be easier to say that Scotland/UK no longer represents your interests/lifestyle/desires and apply for citizenship in whichever country it is you have chosen to make your home? It seems like a false argument to say “I should have a say whether a country I don’t live it should do something, so that I can continue to choose not to live in it”.
You're assuming it's easy to get citizenship in all countries. It's not. I've got a couple of options open to me but not everyone will have. Many people will be forced to return home before they are ready.
I was making plans to move back to Scotland in 2016. However, I didn't think it was fair to make my family of 'foreigners' move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.
On balance, I think the next referendum should still have the same rules as the previous one. My point is that expats have far more at stake now than last time.
^^^
I’m struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?
Maintaining access to the EU is now one of the key drivers in the Independence argument.
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.
Scotland wouldn't have to be full EU members to maintain access to the EU. Look at the EFTA countries for a start.
I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.
England? thats taken a nasty xenophobic turn. Scotland hasn't
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.
Not automatic but simple and quick.
BruceWee
Free MembeI was making plans to move back to Scotland in 2016. However, I didn’t think it was fair to make my family of ‘foreigners’ move to a country that was taking a seriously xenophobic turn.
You're living in fantasy land here and are rambling incoherently. This just takes the buscuit. You've literally got everyone here, to a man, saying everyone living in scotland regardless of background should have a vote.
How in the hell is that xenophobic?
There is also currently no such thing as a Scottish citizen, therefore any voting franchise can only include the people that live here, nor a scottish ethnicity that anyone here is trying to promote.
BruceWee
Free Member
^^^
I’m struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?Maintaining access to the EU is now one of the key drivers in the Independence argument.
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn’t be an automatic process for a start.
Scotland wouldn’t have to be full EU members to maintain access to the EU. Look at the EFTA countries for a start.
I'm confused are you against a Scotland in the EU now?
The hell are you gibbering aboot?
BruceWee
Free Member
Which you won’t have after January?Yes, after January UK expats won’t have an EU passport. Or is that not what you’re asking?
I’m struggling to understand what you are saying here as well.
Let’s try this. You have a job on a project working in Sweden. The project is ending so you start looking around for the next job. You see jobs advertised in Germany, Spain, and Italy but you can’t apply to any of them because they all require EU citizenship. Your project in Sweden ends and you have to go back to the UK because as a non-EU citizen without a job you are not allowed to stay there.
This is the type of scenario I’m talking about. Obviously it’s still not 100% clear what will happen if there is a no-deal Brexit. It could be you get fired from your job in Sweden and kicked out the country immediately.
Even if the WA is ratified it’s not clear if UK citizens will be allowed to move freely between EU countries. Most likely you will be tied to the country you are already in.
Unless the hardest of hard Brexits comes to pass all the UK expats won’t immediately be shipped back to the UK on January 1st. Those of us who don’t secure EU passports will most likely drip back to the UK over the next few years.
Relevance to the independence question? These are UK issues.
You’re living in fantasy land here. You’ve literally got everyone here, to a man, saying everyone living in scotland regardless of background should have a vote.
How in the hell is that xenophobic?
Sorry, I didn't mean Scotland, I meant the UK.
Scotland is not xenophobic but it is currently governed by xenophobes (Westminster, just to be clear).
The point where I decided I wasn't moving back to a Westminster governed Scotland was when I heard government ministers suggesting schools should make lists of foreign born children. That was chilling.
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.
Thanks for the clarification
BruceWee
Free Member
I hope Scotland does the business because I would dearly like to come back.
Fair enough, but since you don't live here, I don't think you should have a vote on it.
If you read my posts again I think you'll find I'm not actually disagreeing with you about anything substantive. I think the rules of the previous ref should be followed.
My only point is that it's not as black and white as last time and those of us who are currently not living in Scotland have a lot more to lose this time than we did last time.
Not automatic but simple and quick.
Oh I agree, but I don't think I'd be basing career choices on if / when Scotland gets to rejoin the EU
BruceWee
Free Member
seosamh77, have I said something to offend you? I seem to have gotten you worked up.If you read my posts again I think you’ll find I’m not actually disagreeing with you about anything substantive. I think the rules of the previous ref should be followed.
I just wasn't understanding your position, you weren't making sense. I wasn't worked up, just not understanding your position. I kinda get you know. basically you would like a vote in a ref.
Personally, even though you would vote yes. I don't think you should get one. (unless you are on the existing electoral role, or move here pre next ref.)
I think BruceWees point is that he may be deprived of choice.
