MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Apologies for a separate thread but didn't want it to get lost elsewhere.
Anyone else's kids saying they are freezing cold at school from the windows being open?
Eldest is experienced being outdoors in all weathers but even with a big coat is finding lessons unpleasant at the moment and it's not winter yet.
How do the teachers amongst us see this working out in the months to come?
Yeah... it will be more of an issue shortly, particularly at my school as its getting on for sixty years old; no HVAC system and failing underfloor heating with brick-filled electric storage heaters that don't provide sufficient heating when the temperature plummets. Last winter we had gas bottle powered portables in both classrooms and workshop.
Issue is that there is no minimum working temperature set in law - only recommendations.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/temperature/law.htm
I let the kids wear their jackets if its cold. don't see the issue
Yep kids in my school can wear coats if required.
The Grammer school I went to was a combination of Victorian build and 60s modernism with some ancient pre-fabs knocking around.
The pre-fabs were absolutely freezing in winter, you could see your breath.
The rest of the school must have cost a fortune to heat. Some of the rooms near the boilers were hot as **** with the heating on. You had to open the windows during the winter. The ones further downstream from the boilers were cold.
The pre-fabs were absolutely freezing in winter, you could see your breath.
And boiling in summer, my science lab at my old school had no carpet on floor, feet used to get soooo cold.
If it gets really cold the windows will get shut, then eveyone gets covid
It's already pretty chilly in our school building, single figure temps in some parts of certain rooms this week. Our heating is air recirculation so it's a no no to use it as the fear is it just blows droplets around. I'm not convinced by that but I'm not going to go against the local authority advice on it.
School/authority is looking at alternative heaters so that we can keep windows open for ventilation and maintain a reasonable temp. The wastefulness of this upsets me greatly but we can't have kids sitting shivering. My suggestion would be kids in masks in class and shut the windows but that's not based on anything other than the idea that if you remove one mitigation strategy (ventilation) you need to introduce another to compensate.
I'm in the Highlands so it's going to get much, much colder!
You're gonna need a bigger coat.
Wear space blankets.
My daughter's school have already said students can wear coats in class. I think I'll be treating her to some decent baselayers and thermal tights.
It was pretty chilly first lesson the other day when it was 3°C outside. I put a hoody on.
Otherwise, just been in my normal shirt and jeans.
Interrrrrresting.
I've been on the cusp of this, seeing clients turning air handling units from recirc to full fresh air despite boiler plant only being sized for a small proportion of fresh air, leads to problems.
If anyone is looking for a 'quick' fix then radiant/infrared heating will offer better comfort, even in a cold/draughty environment. Think old-school bar heaters etc.
My school was built in the 1930s, had WW2 "temporary" buildings, a 1970s block and portacabins. The warmest bit was the WW2 "temporary" buildings with freestanding oil heaters. I was there end of the 70s / early 80s.
Back to the original question, doesn't seem to be a problem at my daughter's school, not sure what they're doing. It's still pretty mild temperatures here in the Chilterns though.
I put a hoody on.
Otherwise, just been in my normal shirt and jeans.
Bloody hell I bet the kids call you Mike too!!! 🙄🙄🙄😆
We've got air blown heating SLT say it's safe. So I sent them a Lancet article about particle size and viral spreading. Apparently our H&S guy says air blown heating is fine. I don't agree.
It's October, and a pretty dry warm autumn so far at that... if kids are wearing coats indoors now what are the plans for winter?
Of course its safe its in a school!!
Anyone else’s kids saying they are freezing cold at school from the windows being open?
Yes, already in a thick coat.
They should be using extraction fans rather than just opening windows. They have no idea how many air changes they are getting. The Virus loves cold conditions, schools are creating to them.
It's times like these I realise how old I am.
Back in the early 1950's I was in primary school in an Victorian era building. There was a tiny stove in a corner of the room. The heat rarely reached past the front row. That was in the Outer Hebrides. Being cold was normal.
Try some vests. They don't even need to be technical base layers as everyone on here will love as it's not heavy exercise. Cheap ones will do and.make a big difference
I don't reckon wearing a coat will cut it when real cold weather turns up. Most classes involve sitting still so there won't be much blood circulation going on. In my experience not a lot of learning happens while sat there miserable thinking about stone cold hands and feet. To maintain decent ventilation a lot of temporary heaters are going to be required, or modifying the uniform rules to allow students dressed like Inuits.
My school was fairly modern but the architects came up with the not so clever idea of having large radiators bolted to the slanted high ceilings and hoping convection would heat things at floor level. Not a chance.
Found this interesting:
Germans embrace fresh air to ward off coronavirus
They should be using extraction fans rather than just opening windows. They have no idea how many air changes they are getting.
And what do they by them with the hopes and dreams of the pupils?
Every class starts with star jumps and repeats every 20 minutes? It’s kind of what I do in my home office as I get cold sitting still and heating the house all day is many £££.
Currently in Germany where opening windows is a national obsession and also government policy:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/30/germans-embrace-fresh-air-to-ward-off-coronavirus
Our kids school has always had the windows open all year round, never heard of anyone complaining and knowing some of them they dont need much excuse to either
The Virus loves cold conditions
That's an interesting point. Cold air tends to have a lower relative humidity so the droplets expelled from sneezing and coughing tend to disperse/evaporate faster than in warmer air. At least that is a working theory I have read. Now I believe this coronavirus can withstand aerosolization so maybe the above is of no consequence? Perhaps someone more knowledgable than me can interject?
Why does the title mention hypothermia ? Did the ops get diagnosed or were they a bit cold as oppose to dropping in core temperature
Saturday school here and for some reason no heating this morning. Outdoors is 7deg. It's fresh indoors. Fortunately I'm dressed for going out on exped this afternoon so I'm warm enough but the kids are cold. Also break time places to hang out for the kids are mostly outdoors - rainy days are not great.
The cold vs ventilation thing is interesting. Most cases round here have been in meat processing plants. I'm assuming its the cold in the those places that has not helped. Is cold but well ventilated better than warm and poorly ventilated - my hunch says yes....but what do I know.
If schools returning is a test drive of a larger return of the workforce this will be replicated in a lot more buildings across the country at some point I guess though it may only be schools that grim it out through the winter.
Most cases round here have been in meat processing plants. I’m assuming its the cold in the those places that has not helped.
That's a good point. I never thought of that. Will be an interesting winter.
I have been dealing with this issue at work.
AIUI the current CIBSE guidance on ventilation is likely to be updated ahead of the October half-term holidays to take into account the colder months.
Blown air heating is apparently fine providing the blown air is fresh from outside and not recirculated within the classroom/building and the ducts are maintained & cleaned in line with the relevant regs.
Aircon units should be fresh air only unless they're located in seldom occupied/unoccupied spaces such as server rooms.
Heating systems will have been designed/specified to work with the windows closed and trickle vents open so will certainly struggle to maintain normal temps with all the windows open. Some schools have been opening a coupe of windows in each classroom and keeping the door open to the air can pass through the corridor and into the general circulation spaces.
Bottom line is that the windows are recommended to be kept open for the time being and should ideally be opened an hour or so before the pupils arrive and closed a similar time after they've left.
Running the heating overnight to build up some thermal mass within the building structure may help but personally I'm not convinced that it will do much more than take the worst of the chill out of the building fabric.
Running the heating with the windows open is definitely not ideal for any number of reasons but for the time being I don't see there's much alternative. I'm keenly awaiting the updated guidance from CIBSE, whenever that arrives.
The guidance on school ventilation comes from the WHO, and specifically in the UK, CIBSE (who base it on the European REHVA guidance). If you want I can post links, it details the received wisdom on spread of covid (a novel virus which is not currently fully understood) and why ventilation is vital in its mitigation. As above no vent = viral load = airborne virus transmission
There is also guidance from BESA on how to set up heating and vent for But it pretty much says no recirc (as this builds viral load...)
There was a drive for natural ventilation of schools but (especially Scotland and highland in particular) low external ambient leads to cold draughts...
The updated BB (101, ventilation, thermal comfort and IAQ in schools) goes a long way to address this with N or MVHR in classrooms but was only issued in aug 2018. It will take a while to make an impact (and not to existing buildings obvs).
SFT have changed their funding mechanism which penalises energy consumption that exceeds 67kWh/m/annum which points very strongly to Passivhaus schools as the ‘way forward’. They have MVHR...
Heat load comprises of two parts: Qa + Qf (a=Air, f=fabric) the air load is based on maintaining IAQ in winter at 8l/s/pupil. Open windows will exceed that, so Qa increases dramatically. As my old mum used to say, it’s cheaper to put on a jumper than a fire...
There are no budgets at present. None. Increased heating demand = big increases in energy costs. There is no money. What are you going to cut to fund this? Roads? social work? Bin collections???? Education already accounts for approx 50% of all council spending as it is.
And @spin, what school you in?
@wombat yup, expecting that to drop any day soon. I expected an update after the REHVA update early Aug. Minimal recirc to achieve minimum temps in mech vent situations I’d guess. Can’t see anyone nailing colours to mast about how many windows, open how much guidance as avoidance of being sued if it turns out to be wrong...
It will be a fudge on what they think you can do to provide a minimal level of thermal comfort as opening windows has proven to be a significant management issue in summer (overheating) in the past. If I’d a pound for every time someone’s complained about being too hot or too cold, well I’d be retired by now...
And @spin, what school you in?
DMed you metalheart. Can I ask is your interest in this as a teacher, heating engineer or something else? You certainly seem to know a lot about heating!
My interest is purely professional (the day job). I’m a chartered building services engineer. I have to know about this stuff...
@spin - don't believe anything he tells you. He's the janitor at a wee school in the Black Isle.
Coats etc will only do so much. Hands and feet will soon get very cold with sitting still. Unless you’re near the equator like Tagnut69.
He’s the janitor
Shows what you know grandad, no such thing as a janitor anymore. Certainly not in a small school! S’all FM these days....
Why does the title mention hypothermia ?
Because I haven't lost my sarcastic sense of humour yet?
Some interesting responses from people who know - will obviously also impact offices and other workplaces as well. Thanks all.
Can't wait to be teaching in gloves to try and keep my Raynaud's at bay...
Shows what you know grandad, no such thing as a janitor anymore.
Is that why there’s no more Scooby-do?
Schools in Germany have to do a Lüftung thing.
But Germans love a Lüftung. Don't you dare just open a window a little.
You need to enter a room. Dramatically declare that the air is stuffy and make a thing of cleaning the window sill and pulling back the curtains (because their windows open inwards, ffs). Window needs to be wide open for five minutes before you can run back and dramatically close the window whilst complaining about the cold air.
GF's office have been working with open windows and distanced desks. Now that the weather has turned they've sent kgs everyone to work from home. GF is still in the office as she needs to coordinate shit. I'm glad about that as otherwise our heating bill will be through the roof....
Oh, Germans are generally a bit sensitive when it comes to the cold.