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I thought the idea was that products generally get better each year, so what's going on with mountaineering Salopettes....?
When I bought my last pair almost a quarter of a century ago it was pretty simple. 3 layer Goretex, body extends way above the waistline front and back - supported with a set of decent broad elasticated braces which held them up and stopped snow getting inside when you take a big crash off piste. Full length side zips (give or take 5 cm at the top which meant you could easily get them on and off over ice boots or ski boots. Could probably put them on over crampons too if you really wanted to. The lower cuffs were wide enough for ski boots but tight enough for front pointing. Obviously there were built in gaiters to stop powder getting in your ski boots. Reenforced patches on the inner ankle/calf to protect from crampons. Pocket for cards/cash. You could open the side zips insanely wide for ventilation uphill.
That was it, job done. Pretty much perfect for mountaineering, ice climbing and skiing.
Alas the last 5 years mine are showing their age and the arse leaks when you sit on a wet chairlift, and the knees leak when you kneel in snow. In sub zero temps they's still the dog's bollocks, but any wet water about and no good. So I've been looking for some new ones for the last 4 or so years....
It's like living in an alternate reality, the absolute dross that is out there. Arc teryx themselves decided to upgrade the model I had by removing the full side zip and replacing it with a stupid little ankle zip and then an upper ventilation zip. WHY, why would you change an excellent design and make it shit? It's no longer possible to put the trousers on or off over ice boots or ski boots. How TF can you advertise some thing as suitable for mountaineering and ski touring if you have to take your shoes off each time you need to put your waterproofs on or off. This year they have finally realised the stupidity of the design and have reverted to a semi full length zip... but attached the rear braces to the side of the trousers instead of the back and made the back really low so snow comes in in a wipeout. They've also replaced the front Goretex panel with some godawful tight sportsbra attachment thing. I've got a tiny 38/40" chest and the size large is too tight on me to fit any decent insulation underneath.
I've looked at North Face, Revolution Race, Norrona, etc etc. They have a huge variety of brilliant looking kit which is advertised for skiing and mountaineering- none of which has a decent side zip.
Berghaus is the same.
Montane and Rab seem to be the only companies that haven't gone down this avenue but the fit on the Montane is just weird and they both have ridiculously tight bib sections. Clearly I've put on the stack of weight over the last 20 years, but the old Arc Teryx ones fit perfectly. How have Montane and Rab managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by replacing non stretch Goretex panels with stretchy fabric panels which are MORE restrictive and don't allow clothes underneath. Yes I'm fatter, but not so fat that I shouldn't fit in a size large.
Anyway, I'll shut up. Before I take a knife to the Rab Latoks, does anyone know any outdoor gear manufacturers (apart from Keela which are too warm and heavy) that does a decent pair of mountaineering sallies with full side zips?
Paramo do some (Enduros) but they're a bit pricey (£450 rrp), full side zip and basically immortal as they can be proofed again and again.They will also do repairs at a reasonable price, may be warm so go and try them on.
Mountain Equipment?
I took a punt on the Keela ones for a second pair to use on days when I'm not worried about weight. I thought I couldn't really go wrong at the price (ended up being about £120 I think). They are bomb proof but they seem to be basically non-breathable and the fit is huge.
Paramo salopettes are excellent in the snow but useless in the rain. I love mine for winter climbing and ski touring but if I think the walk in may be wet I take the old ME ones I have.
basically immortal
Not if you use them winter climbing they're not!
I hear you on function and durability being second to a weight figure in a review being 13g less than the competitor, fashion dominant over function, and some kit that's clearly not really been on a process of refinement on the hill by folk who actually use it....but hey, pretty colour wins sales.
@Spin - would the Keela Pro salopettes be okay for downhill skiing on warmer days? I do red/black runs and rarely go off piste.
I was looking for some new walking overtroos and also need some new softshell/thin ski trousers to replace ancient knackered old Rab softshell ones. They look like they could double up and do both jobs
would the Keela Pro salopettes be okay for downhill skiing on warmer days? I do red/black runs and rarely go off piste.
Yes, I think they'd be ok for that. You can wear them without leggings underneath and they are easy to vent.
I actually think piste skiing would be one of the things they'd be ok for. That and standing around in the cold and wet!
Not if you use them winter climbing they're not!
You dancing on them with your crampons on and leaving the remains on the snow? Take the remnants home and they can be repaired for a reasonable cost (compared to the cost of new). The service is quite good (I had to use it after a close encounter with a gas stove melted part of a sleeve). I may also have been known to trip over my feet whilst wearing big boots and crampons, so far I've avoided spearing my leg wear.
I concur with the OP. I have some Spray way mountaineering salopettes I bought 97/98ish and nothing I've bought or seen since has come close.
Maybe I was unlucky with my Paramo trousers but I found them to be useless and using nikwax was marginal at best. Got a wet arse everytime I sat down in them. Great that you can see them up again, but that was after every outing with crampons!
You dancing on them with your crampons on and leaving the remains on the snow?
The fabric in the knees wears out, the press studs stop working, they pick up rips from crampons/rock and eventually the zips pack in, just like most things with a zip.
You could get all those things repaired but it starts to be good money after bad when a zip is £105 for paramo to do it, a bit less from other repair places.
They're pretty durable but not indestructible and the water resistance really starts to suffer once the fabric gets heavily worn. I reckon I get about 7 or 8 years of fairly regular winter use (most weekends) out of a pair before it's not worth fixing them anymore which is definitely better than goretex.
Mountain Equipment make something that sounds exactly what you want but they're £550.
Mountain Equipment make something that sounds exactly what you want but they're £550.
Is that the Tupilak?
I was going to try some when they come out but the look like trousers with braces rather than proper salopettes. I really need the high top to keep snow out after wipeouts and the wind out whilst climbing/ belaying.
Unfortunately Marmot have gone the same way.
I think the ME Karakorum pant does that
Mountain Equipment make something that sounds exactly what you want but they're £550.
Is that the Tupilak?
I was going to try some when they come out but the look like trousers with braces rather than proper salopettes. I really need the high top to keep snow out after wipeouts and the wind out whilst climbing/ belaying.
The Kongur
https://www.mountain-equipment.com/products/kongur-mrt-mens-salopette?variant=31671316512846
That Kongur does indeed look good.
Someone on UKC suggested PatG Plumas, so I've ordered some of them to try. If not I'll look into the Kongurs
IMO materials have moved on. I think manufacturers expect you to wear appropriate to the conditions and they'd love you to own a quiver of trousers where you pick for the conditions. Wet? Full waterproofs where a side sip is a potential water ingress point, so eliminate it. These will keep you dry, but sacrifice breathability and flexibility. Most of the time a lighter-weight softshell is more breathable and more comfortable.
For skiing I use the Decathlon Simond softshell pants, over whatever base layer is suitable. Proofed with TX10 they are almost enough almost all of the time. No issues with breathability, but don't like sitting on a wet chairlift. If you are skiing through (or worse, riding a chairlift* back up through) the snow/rain line they don't cope, but the rest of the time they are fine. In this situation my tactic is to sit very still until things stare to freeze up again the brush it all off. Things would have to be pretty bad for ski touring for them not to be OK. Like "why am I here?" bad.
No long zips, but there is no need to take them on/off. If it looks guaranteed wet, I wear guaranteed waterproof bottoms and don't intend to take them off.
* - There is a new gondola at Les Arcs from Villaroger that eliminates 2 slow, low, and potentially wet chairlifts and saves something like 10 minutes of uplift. My softshell skipants approve!
I just can't get over the price. I've got some ME Drylite ones that are basically the same design and worked brilliantly for winter climbing, but were much cheaper. They don't seem to exist anymore and looking about people were complaining about the lack of proper salopettes 15 years ago.
It looks like I need to cosset my 2005 vintage Paramo Salopettes. Built when "fast and light" was just getting going, like me they are a little chunky! There's a crampon hole in one of the cordura knee patches but otherwise they're going well. Helps that winter climbing use is no more than twice per year and I'm no longer pushing grades, more like winter walk with a high penalty for mistakes!
I'm not sure devolution means what you think it does...
... that aside, I figure salopettes are yesterday's legwear. They're faffy things and to put them on, you need to take off your shell jacket, which is a hassle in some situations. If you want to be snotty about it, you'd could probably argue that the market for full-on winter mountaineering salopettes is vanishingly small, in the UK at least, and limited to slightly grumpy middle-aged men who last bought a pair 25 years ago when they were more modish 😉
Anyway, I'd dive into some of the more niche brands - Salewa, Outdoor Research, La Sportiva maybe. Also The North Face's top-end Summit Series stuff is really good - as far as I can see, they mostly make it with and for their sponsored athletes and while their run of the mill stuff is quite ordinary, the latest Summit Series is, ime, a different animal, though you'd have to park any brand prejudices.
I haven't worn salopettes since the late 90s, then again I don't ski and find high-waisted shell trousers fine for mountaineering use.