Good grief do none of you lefties actually work
My posting volume generally goes up when I'm stuck on a call that someone thought I had to attend when I didn't really need to. Today has been wall-to-wall meetings 😂
I keep hearing October.
My posting volume generally goes up when I’m stuck on a call that someone thought I had to attend when I didn’t really need to. Today has been wall-to-wall meetings 😂
Modern capitalism. 1 hour per day of busy work. 7 hours per day discussing said busy work (along with everyone else's busy work) with various of 'managers'.
does anyone truely believe that Reform are going to stand candidates in tory seats?
I doubt there's much Rishi can do to persuade a bunch of white supremacists that they should support a man with brown skin.
What about a potential return of Cameron? He does seem to be getting his face seen and I notice he's third favourite at the bookies to be the next pm. I hope not, I suspect he'll be more popular than lil Rishi with the Tory faithful
It’s about identifying a problem. If you don’t speak up when there are problems because you don’t have a solution, then no-one will know about the problems and nothing will get done.
This thread is all about identifying problems. Problems with Sunak, problems with Starmer and problems with just about anything else, i.e. voting systems. But this thread is absolutely 100% only to discuss problems specific to Sunak otherwise anarchy will entail.
Maybe they see it as an opportunity to split the Tory party and stand a chance of getting a little parliamentary presence. In that context, I can't see them backing down.
What about a potential return of Cameron?
He's a lord. Think the days of the tories governing the country from the HoL are over.
binners
Full Member
@Poopscoop – your present odds with the bookies are:April-June 2024 – 4/1
July-September 2024 – 6/1
October-December 2024. – 4/1
Jan 2025. – 16/1
Cheers!
Can he be delorded? I know Benn was, but he was hereditary and it took a bit of parliamentary time to free him.
Funny if he took that route and the constituency he was parachuted into rejected him. No, I don't think Call Me Dave will be back as PM.
The Guardian does it's own analysis on today's poll and, funnily enough, comes to a very different conclusion to the Telegraph:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/15/yougov-poll-telegraph-tories-disaster-analysis
I still think the rightward lurch of the Tory party prior to the election is inevitable. Unfortunately, if that happens, the equally violent rightward lurch of Labour is also inevitable.
Can he be delorded?
Yes easy enough.
He would either need to go into the GE as a candidate which would be awkward or stand in one of the upcoming byelections.
Either scenario is unlikely especially since all the competitors would be doing their best to ensure he didnt get made a candidate.
I suspect he regrets not sitting around on the backbenches rather than quitting in a hissyfit.
From that Guardian article:
For one thing, some pollsters believe the YouGov conclusion of a 120-seat Labour majority could be an underestimate. Additionally, the poll’s organisers seem intent on using its findings to push the party further to the right on immigration
Well who'd have thunk it? Lord Frost and various other right wing nutters are carrying on their tub-thuping about immigration. They're absolutely obsessed about something thats of little consequence in the grand scheme of things, and barely registers on most peoples list of concerns
Talking of which, its the Rwanda vote tomorrow and the numbers of Tory Backbench headbangers rumoured to be ready to vote against it now number 70, so Rishi will lose the vote and face fresh calls from the loons to pull the UK out of the ECHR
No wonder Rishi is making a distraction speech this afternoon, where presumably - as always - he'll say absolutely nothing at all
time to vote tactically
because Tories being 3rd party would be hilarious
https://twitter.com/Dylan_Difford/status/1746886158447947988
Talking of which, its the Rwanda vote tomorrow and the numbers of Tory Backbench headbangers rumoured to be ready to vote against it now number 70, so Rishi will lose the vote and face fresh calls from the loons to pull the UK out of the ECHR
Can't find the link now, but apparently we've granted asylum to some Rwandans since declaring it a safe country....there's stupid and then there's Tory stupid.
Its the front page of the I today. Rwanda is just the gift that keeps giving. The Tory party is going to go to war with itself again tomorrow over it. I expect there will be a lot of parliamentary grandstanding from Lee Anderson, Braverman, Gullis, Honest Bob and co while Rishi will be nowhere to be seen.
Rwanda is like a motif for just how unhinged the Tory party now is
Farage is going to look daft if he stands in the strongest Reform area and invariably gets beaten. Plus an early election isn't good for his possible plans to tour US with the Orange One grifting a hell of a lot of money.
Reform are a busted flush if they don't put candidates up for elections. What is the point of a political party if you can't vote for them.
Aren't Reform trying to crowdfund the deposit for one of the local elections? If so then that doesn't sound like they have a massive coffer to cover the costs for all seats in the UK in the general election.
The point of reform is to be a threat to the tory vote to push the tories further to the right. Thats all they are a pressure group but the threat to the tories is real and serious<br /><br />I'll bet they do not stand candidates in tory seats once they have got concessions from the tories. The last thing they want is a strong labour government. There will be key Reform demands in the tory manifesto
Farage is going to look daft if he stands in the strongest Reform area and invariably gets beaten
Watch out. Binners will threadpolice you and announce its only about Sunak. Unless he likes what you are saying in which case carry on.
The smart money is on him not standing since a)he will lose and b)it will mean he needs to concentrate on campaigning in one place as opposed to swanning round several constituencies getting massive press whilst whining about the msm.
What is the point of a political party if you can’t vote for them.
Its not a party. Its a company.
Its best to think of it as close to a political party as tufton street propaganda outlets are to thinktanks. A convenient cover story for putting pressure on media and parties as needed.
If so then that doesn’t sound like they have a massive coffer to cover the costs for all seats in the UK in the general election.
Depends whether their paymasters thinks its worth the cash. Getting crowdfunding makes sense since if it works it indicates an immediate threat to the tories and also offsets the bill to the paymasters.
From the guardian. He is in real trouble4 over this - heads he loses tails he loses
Rishi Sunak is facing a Conservative meltdown over the Rwanda deportation bill after two deputy chairs said they would support rebel amendments aimed at blocking international human rights laws.
Lee Anderson and Brendan Clarke-Smith have defied the prime minister by backing rightwing challenges to the bill, which will be debated by parliament on Tuesday. They will join as many as 70 other MPs said to be considering abstaining or opposing the controversial legislation.
Sunak’s room for manoeuvre is further limited by threats from the One Nation bloc of more than 100 moderate MPs, who have warned that if he accepts any rightwing amendments the bill could be in breach of international law, a red line for the attorney general, Victoria Prentis, and the justice secretary, Alex Chalk.
Yep, the little fella is in deep shit but...he will speed up the appeals process against deportation and he will defy EU judges - according to front pages of express and mail.
tjagain
Full Memberthe bill could be in breach of international law, a red line for the attorney general, Victoria Prentis, and the justice secretary, Alex Chalk.
Just another reminder of how far we've fallen, that only a minority of the ruling party think "breaking international law" is a red line, and that almost as big a group are prepared to rebel in order to make sure we do break it. **** me...
Yep, when this government finally goes we can all take a sigh of relief just as many Americans must have when Trump went. The only problem is they come back again so it doesn't last for very long.
Depending on how today goes and how far Rishi is prepared to give in to the headbangers demands, tomorrows vote could effectively be a vote of no confidence in the little fella, with a few of those ‘on the payroll’ saying they’ll vote against it.
Whether it does or not, the next couple of days are just going to be Tory MPs shouting at each other
Again, it just shows his lack of political nouse. What did he think was going to happen when he appointed the likes of 30p Lee to senior positions?
They’re actually mad enough to now be openly talking about getting rid of Rishi and appointing some far right nutjob BEFORE a general election
They’re actually mad enough to now be openly talking about getting rid of Rishi and appointing some far right nutjob BEFORE a general election
Let's hope they do as I don't think as many people want a far right nut job PM as much as the far right nut job MPs do but will probably be proven wrong.
I know we've been saying this for the last 20 years (or maybe even longer), but surely the schism between the One Nation Tories and the Right Wing nut-job Tories (and no, I refuse to call you 'The Five Families', you bunch of fantasist cretins) simply becomes too great and the party will finally split?
Expect withdrawal from the ECHR in the tory manifesto or some other sop to reform
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Capital Punishment.
I know we’ve been saying this for the last 20 years (or maybe even longer), but surely the schism between the One Nation Tories and the Right Wing nut-job Tories (and no, I refuse to call you ‘The Five Families’, you bunch of fantasist cretins) simply becomes too great and the party will finally split?
I think one nation Tory was just handy marketing language.
They've always been Neoliberal psychopaths. Being a polite Tory doesn't alter that. Destruction has always been their calling card.
It's just more visible these days.
According to Peston, the Home Secretary (who lest we forget thinks the whole Rwanda thing is 'batshit') will today cave in on the PMs behalf (who lest we forget thinks the whole Rwanda thing is 'batshit').
He will give concessions to the fruitloops which will contravene international law, but that still won't be enough because they won't settle for anything less than full withdrawal from the ECHR, which we all know is absolutely insane and would make the UK an international pariah.
Not getting their frankly unhinged demands in full, they will then vote against the bill that they all devised and championed, undermining the PM and possibly forcing another Tory leadership campaign
Ladies and gentlemen.... the Tory Party and present (hopefully very short-lived) government
Batshit! Absolutely batshit!
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1746986359468736759?s=20
It's interesting that the narrative is still around replacing him as a leader, not just calling an election because the gov is no longer functional. I am clearly far more petty than him; if the Rwanda vote failed I'd be saying "f this, I'm calling an election"
I think one nation Tory was just handy marketing language.
They’ve always been Neoliberal psychopaths. Being a polite Tory doesn’t alter that. Destruction has always been their calling card.
That's not actually true though is it? Harold Macmillan easily fell into the definition of a social democrat, as did Edward Heath. And also probably Michael Heseltine, for a example that is still alive.
The problem is that One Nation Tories have been hamstrung by having to tow the party line ever since Thatcher and working class/petty bourgeois Tories seized power and established the right-wing neoliberal agenda.
Yes - the "One nation" tories believe in looking after the "wee folk" in a very paternalistic way. Sending some crumbs from the top table down to them rather than the bunch we have now that are all about denying folk stuff
But the overall aim of the tory party has always been to keep power and wealth in the hands of the powerful and wealthy
Well that's social democracy for you TJ!
Lolz
Trying to pick a fight Ernie?
but that still won’t be enough
What did Osborne say? "How do you negotiate with some-one who won't take 'yes' for an answer?"
Given the news about Trump this morning I'm beginning to wonder about the mechanics of Trump and a new UK PM. Admittedly it's unlikely (because we won't have a tory PM) but can anyone imagine Trump warming to one of Sunak, Braveman or Badenoch? No me neither, but then I really don't know how Starmer will deal with him. Think it's probably very likely that UK/US relations could be a bit frosty over the next few years.
And also probably Michael Heseltine, for a example that is still alive.
Ken Clark and John Major are the best modern examples. I always warmed to Major, I even have a signed copy of his autobiography (which I never finished). He really didn't like Thatcher.
I am clearly far more petty than him; if the Rwanda vote failed I’d be saying “f this, I’m calling an election”
It's bizarre. Sunak has only been an MP since 2015, he can just return to a normal well-paid life immediately and leave behind this collection of effluent behind. In corporate life, he wouldn't tolerate the likes of Shapps, Cleverley, Anderson, Coutinho, Trott, Keegan...Esther McVey (FFS). Imagine working by choice with such a collection of dullards, thugs and shysters?
I mean, what is his motivation at this point, he must know he's on a hiding to nothing, and his political legacy will be absolute failure? He was soundly rejected by the party membership in favour of an absolute mind vacuum, but even that is not enough of a slap in the face, apparently.
Has he got some kind of punishment fetish?
Delusion of grandeur?
and his political legacy will be absolute failure?
He became PM, that's hardly failure by most standards, There's only seven other people currently alive who can say that. And given the adage that every political career ends in failure, he's the same as every other PM.
Given the news about Trump this morning I’m beginning to wonder about the mechanics of Trump and a new UK PM.
Trump is entirely transactional. He will like you if you come to an agreement with him, and will not like if you don't. It's that straightforward.
He became PM, that’s hardly failure by most standards, There’s only seven other people currently alive who can say that. And given the adage that every political career ends in failure, he’s the same as every other PM.
True, but he achieved that on day one. After a year, there is nothing left to add to the list of achievements on his wiki page but a crushing election defeat. In his position (roundly rejected by the membership in favour of Truss), I'd leave them to it.
Also, the Rwanda scheme is done, it's over. The Rwandan government specifically said it would not participate in a scheme if the UNHCR ruled it illegal, which they have just done. How are we going to remedy that, just send them another 400 million quid to smooth things over?
The problem for Sunak is that he's young. Being a former PM must be a dreadfully boring life. You can't do much of substance career-wise, you have restricted freedom, and everyone wants you to keep your mouth shut and stay in the shadows. Boris will probably be happy playing the after dinner speech circuit but I doubt Sunak will be up for that. He probably assumes he can pick up a job in Silicon valley but being PM comes with so much baggage it's not a certainty.
True, but he achieved that on day one. After a year, there is nothing left to add to the list of achievements on his wiki page but a crushing election defeat
He's a multi-millionaire on his own, he's married the daughter of a billionaire, he entered Parliament in 2015 and made it to PM by 2021. That he'll get beaten in an election is what happens to every PM at the fag end of a term. By any standard you want to measure that's enough of a biography to get the occasional free dinner. The rest of his life is gravy.
He probably assumes he can pick up a job in Silicon valley but being PM comes with so much baggage it’s not a certainty.
His phone contacts alone will guarantee any position in any firm that he chooses. How d'you think a total **** like Nick Clegg got work?
His phone contacts alone will guarantee any position in any firm that he chooses. How d’you think a total **** like Nick Clegg got work?
I don't doubt he'll get a job, it's just a question of whether that job will be important enough for him. Clegg was the exception, but you don't see many other ex-PMs or senior cabinet ministers (Osborne probably the exception although he's flitted between multiple jobs so doesn't seem entirely happy with what he's doing) doing stuff like Clegg. Also Clegg has the luxury of not having to attend various state events which ex-PMs are obliged to fulfill. The bottom line is that after being PM, anything is going to be a bit of a comedown.
Sorry, been covered?
Sends a chill up my spine.
Getting the Tories out is most definitely not a done deal. It will require the biggest swing in electrol history after the boundary changed that have been made.
General election: Labour would need record swing to win
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67361138
He’ll fail upwards like they all do
Jo Swinson didn't.
Or maybe she did, it's difficult to tell what 'upwards' from LibDem leader is.
I mean, in her head she was almost PM so I guess for her a job as Director of a foundation that doesn't do anything must be a step down.
Getting the Tories out is most definitely not a done deal. It will require the biggest swing in electrol history after the boundary changed that have been made.
Yup - reform will stand down in Tory seats so thats another 10% on the tory vote, the press will muckrake on Starmer and a majority is far from a foregone conclusion. I expect a thin labour majority or none
The bottom line is that after being PM, anything is going to be a bit of a comedown.
I'm sure the swimming pool's worth of cash in the basement will ease the trauma of wandering around his 20000sq ft Malibu beachfront apartment with an empty diary, and nothing more pressing than choosing which tremendously short trousers go best with boating shoes...
Yup – reform will stand down in Tory seats
I'm not so sure that they'll be that pliable this time around.
Yup – reform will stand down in Tory seats
Tice (not to mention farage) is a scammer & a grifter, theyll definitely stand them down
I think once reform get close to the election and realize that by standing in tory seats they are gifting labour 50+ seats that a deal will be done between tories and reform so that key reform demands are in the next tory manifesto
there is no chance of reform winning seats, they are purely a pressure group to push the tories further right. This is their only aim. Once its acheived they will stand down
I wonder if Jo Swinson's new employers hired the best brand advisors? All I see on that website is an organisation called PAIN, which is somewhat ironic given her history. 🤷♂️
I’m not so sure that they’ll be that pliable this time around.
Yeah I think reform are in it this time to kill the tories. I don't see much upside in them pulling out, unless they get a promise to make Farage leader post-Sunak.
Which would reform prefer? A labour government with a huge majority or a labour struggling to get a majority? Thats their choice. when push comes to shove they will not want a strong labour government
If Sunak running away from a May election results in a Conservative leadership battle, Reform could could do some horsetrading as regards offering to withdraw some candidates if their favoured Tory is chosen to replace Sunak.
Which would reform prefer?
The destruction of the Tories, and to replace them as the default ring wing party in UK politics? If Reform don't stand down and there's a good amount of tactical voting folks are suggesting that the Tories could be third place behind Labour and the Lib Dems. Some folks are predicting a Canada '93 outcome, As the party on the up that can only be good news for Reform.
There is no upside for them to stand aside – anywhere.
apart from the fact that it will save them money
Which would reform prefer? A labour government with a huge majority or a labour struggling to get a majority? Thats their choice. when push comes to shove they will not want a strong labour government
Farage will revel in the Tories being annihilated, especially if his Reform picks up a few seats along the way. He can then go to the Tories and offer to lead them back from oblivion, becoming the 'saviour' of the party and creating a proper nuisance of himself from the side-lines. Once they become remotely electable again he will 'stand aside' for a new leader of his preference, that keeps him on the gravy train without having to do any of the really hard stuff.
Long-term a Labour landslide could actually be good for Reform and especially Farage.
Farage will revel in the Tories being annihilated, especially if his Reform picks up a few seats along the way.
If you see Richard Tice interviewed, he also seems to be positively licking his lips at the prospect of doing unto the Tories what they did to him in 2019.... totally shafting them!
Standing candidates against key tories seems to be fuelled as much by malice and an appetite for revenge than any expectation of electoral victory
There is no upside for them to stand aside – anywhere.
yes there is IMO - the chance to pressure the tories into putting their key demands in the manifesto and by standing down in tory seats preventing labour getting a huge majority and even the chance of another tory government with their key demands in place
sure its hard to predict what these loons will do as rationality is not their strong point
yes there is IMO – the chance to pressure the tories into putting their key demands in the manifesto
Or be the ones writing the manifesto in 5 years time, and at the same time getting your revenge on the folks who shafted you last time around? @binners is right; if you watch Tice he's absolutely running a "F*** You" campaign against the Tories this time around.
tj - we disagree; not long to wait until we find out.
I agree - Reform and nige are only after a platform, and they will have a better platform if labour win. Its not about what they perceived as a tangible benifit to the country, its just politics.
Oh yes - its all opinions but Tice is not the boss. He is just a puppet
The only thing we know about Tice and Reform is that they are not to be taken at their word. They may stand aside, they may not. I'm not sure what concessions would prompt them to do so, probably a new PM of the Braverman/Badenoch ilk. That would push back the election and whoever pays for Tice then has the chance to get their fingers into the Tory manifesto.
I would think withdrawal from the ECHR and futher anti EU /. immigration measures would be enough with perhaps a referendum on capital punishment
I think Half the problem is polls and press coverage shouting the odds in favour of a Labour win, and banging on about Reform splitting the Tory vote this early, before a date is even set.
The risk is that it serves as a rallying call for local Tory activists to stop their infighting and get their shit in a sock.
If you want a Tory loss, it helps for the Narrative to be driven by Lil' Rishi and his rather out of touch magic. COL Crisis? Nah lets talk about small boats, NHS failing? PPE Scandals? Nah we'd rather fight amongst ourselves about the Rwanda policy.
The more the central party cling to the culture war talking points and policies the more they damage themselves with the wider electorate. It's wearing thin now.
I think Reform will probably manage their biggest vote share with the most disgruntled fringes of the "Red Wall" where first time Tory voters who potentially feel most abandoned and angry look to register a protest, especially where they stood back before (as the Brexit party). The seats that boosted Boris' majority in 2019 start to become the most at risk, but it's still not a given that they're going to Labour.
A steady six months of mostly the same sort of propaganda from all parties, plus the ongoing drip feed of scandals and cuts should mean Labour slowly extend their lead, but current trajectory isn't a guarantee.
The other thing to consider is the 'Rupert Factor', Just where will the Tabloids land? That wing of the press still has power and much like Blair managed to persuade Murdoch to support him in 97, will SKS do the same?
Oh yes – its all opinions but Tice is not the boss. He is just a puppet
Well if he's a puppet then the former Tory donors now funding the Reform party seem as equally keen to **** the Tories over as Tice
The one thing they all seem to agree on is that the Conservatives under Sunak are effectively a bunch of pinko snowflake commies, slightly to the left of Jeremy Corbyn and they should be nuking the channel 3 times a day to deter immigrants and abolishing taxation completely. They probably want to cut peoples hands off for shoplifting as well, but they've not actually declared that publicly (yet)
I don't think the tabloids hold much sway now, however they have been replaced by much more efficient misinformation efforts on social media. Unfortunately the right wing populists are quite happy to fund and engage with these misinformation tools and campaigns, while the centrists just capitulate to them.
but can anyone imagine Trump warming to one of Sunak, Braveman or Badenoch? No me neither, but then I really don’t know how Starmer will deal with him. Think it’s probably very likely that UK/US relations could be a bit frosty over the next few years.
I imagine u-turn starmer will roll over
I don’t think the tabloids hold much sway now, however they have been replaced by much more efficient misinformation efforts on social media.
I agree with you about this MSP, and I can't understand why wider media, politicians and the like still give newspaper 'power' such credence. Do the BBC still do that 'What the papers say' slot on the evening news? Should be reformatted to 'Shite that bots are pumping out on Twitter and other such bollocks'.
Will the hate press embrace trump?
Most people in this country think he's a prick.
Will the hate press embrace trump?
Who cares?! (see points above).
Do the BBC still do that ‘What the papers say’ slot on the evening news?
It's on BBC News channel, and Radio4... but it's pretty much redundant now that BBC journalism has been stripped to the bone... most of their "reporting" is repeating news from the papers now. It's all the new shorter and cheaper Newsnight is going to be doing when the next lot of cuts hit... commentators talking about the news of the day... no real reporting at all.
The Next Tory Leader, whether in opposition or government, will have to preside over and attempt to settle the infighting between the "right" and "moderate" wings for ultimate control. Reform is just the current vehicle for the Right.
Those Ex-Kippers now fanning the flames with their 'Reform' pamphlets know exactly what they're doing, hurt the party to help push them into opposition, and then nudge control into less rational hands as they start looking to regroup. The likes of Anderson, Braverman and Badenoch are their useful idiots on the inside (whether they realise or not).
I don’t think the tabloids hold much sway now, however they have been replaced by much more efficient misinformation efforts on social media. Unfortunately the right wing populists are quite happy to fund and engage with these misinformation tools and campaigns, while the centrists just capitulate to them.
I'm not so sure, Yes sound bites and social media paint a picture, but it's still not uncommon for the trigger to be "longform" journalism in one of the Rags. if a minister wants to cause a stir in social media they contribute a piece to the Telegraph of the Mail and then sit back and let the twitterati and the podcasters do the rest.
as for broadcast news without the Blair government helping Rupert out, Sky news wouldn't be as much of a popular source as it is today.
Editorial decisions in the "old media" still impact the narrative disproportionately, even if most of the readership are other journalists and SPADs.
Editorial decisions in the “old media” still impact the narrative disproportionately, even if most of the readership are other journalists and SPADs.
But that's a small cohort of the general electorate, so still not really significant influence, more of a small political circle jerk.
if a minister wants to cause a stir in social media they contribute a piece to the Telegraph of the Mail and then sit back and let the twitterati and the podcasters do the rest.
OK, I can understand this point, but then it's still Social media that's doing the heavy lifting.
Anyway, sorry off topic. Back to Lil Rishi and his current woes. (tiny violin broken out).
the likes of Shapps, Cleverley, Anderson, Coutinho, Trott, Keegan…Esther McVey (FFS). Imagine working by choice with such a collection of dullards, thugs and shysters?
That's out of order. I mean wrong order. It goes Shyster, Thug, Dullard, Lier, Spaddy, Sweary, and Doc(tor the facts).
