MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
it’s never getting to the North though, is it.
Define "the North"...
Define “the North”…
Watford?
Hunt said this morning: 'I can't see any foreseeable circumstance in which HS2 won't go to Euston'
Given this countries track record on foreseeable circumstances over the last ten years, I'd say its all thats left to make it the complete white elephant it has so clearly always been, so pretty much a nailed on certainty
I see operation 'save nadhim' is going down well
https://twitter.com/AndyinBrum/status/1618364600738811905?t=8D5W4ya_2ley55R0TUqrUg&s=19
So who is it that has calculated that if there was a general election tomorrow Labour would have a more than 400 seat majority, and the Tories would be down to just 23 seats making them the fourth largest party behind the LibDems?
And more I importantly what is the point of these fantasy figures? To discredit pollsters?
I reckon generally speaking the pollsters have probably got it fairly right, they are simply too many polls consistently showing broadly the same result.
When asked how would they vote if there was a general election tomorrow I feel confident that Tory support is probably in the mid to high twenties and Labour support is probably in the mid to high forties.
Although if there was an actual election tomorrow I am also confident that some people who are currently not prepared to commit themselves would in the event vote Tory. Which is why I think the actual Labour lead would likely be around the 15% mark.
I don't understand the point of talking about the Tories being down to 23 seats when that is so obviously not going to happen.
Edit:
I see operation ‘save nadhim ’ is going down well
The PeoplePolling poll which have posted shows absolutely no change in Tory support from the the same poll a week ago. So according to that poll the Nadhim Zahawi story has had no effect on Tory support.
So who is it that has calculated that if there was a general election tomorrow Labour would have a more than 400 seat majority, and the Tories would be down to just 23 seats making them the fourth largest party behind the LibDems?
That's using the Britain predicts mrp model on the people polling data, modified version of electoral calculus, which was the most accurate at predicting 2019 GE & last 2 sets of locals
https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/11/britainpredicts
The PeoplePolling poll which have posted shows absolutely no change in Tory support
That's because the dks are shifting to Labour, which like rod Stewart is showing that based on recent events, people want the tories out
Edit
It's even worse for the tories using people polling numbers on electoral calculus
Bonkers figures, but don't forget how much fptp can really skew results
I don’t understand the point of talking about the Tories being down to 23 seats when that is so obviously not going to happen.
Once you get to high 40% with opponents down to 20 odd % then you get wipeout in first past the post elections - hence the SNP getting almost all the scottish seats
So according to that poll the Nadhim Zahawi story has had no effect on Tory support.
I think that now, the tories are unlikely to see any further significant worsening of their polling figures but every new scandal also strengthens the anti tory feelings and makes any swing back to them also less likely.
yup. 20 odd % is the hard core tory voters who will never change their vote
It wasn't that long ago that the thought of labour winning the next election seemed absolutely outlandish to me. An impossible dream.
However, unless they badly shoot themselves in the foot, Labour are almost certain to form the next government.
Trouble is... I'm still feeling very downbeat about quantifiable, positive change happening in the UK this decade really. With the best will in the world and even if luck is on their side, Labour are facing an absolute sh*t storm. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they only win one term then get burnt by the absolute mess the country is in and a Tory government are back in again straight after.
Even if Labour win the next 2 elections, their work will really have hardly just begun to turn things around.
What a bloody mess.
I would put money on 'my' tory MP sill getting 50%+ vote come the election. He managed to get 50% in 1997 and has increased since then. I am surrounded by tory ****ers.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they only win one term then get burnt by the absolute mess the country is in and a Tory government are back in again straight after
While any incoming Labour government will have one hell of a clean up job to do after inheriting an absolute car crash, what do you think the defeated Tory party will do after their expected electoral wipeout?
1. Have an orderly leadership election and then unite behind that leader?
2. Commence bloodletting like we’ve never seen before and Unleash full-on factional warfare, fighting like rats in a sack?
If and its a big if the wipeout does happen ( they only have to recover 5%or so to avoid it) then I expect the tories to split with a chunk joining labour and a chunk going of to UKIP ( or whatever its called now) leaving a rump "real tory"party
That would then leave space on the left for an actual leftish party
I think it’s far more likely that the entire party just purges the few (relatively) sane people left and goes full UKIP under the leadership of one of total fruitloop ERG ‘Spartans’. Braverman would be my bet, if she keeps her seat
You just know that when they lose the election, the conclusion they’ll reach is that they weren’t Brexity/anti-immigrant/right wing enough.
This next election can’t come soon enough
I don’t understand the point of talking about the Tories being down to 23 seats when that is so obviously not going to happen.
Once you get to high 40% with opponents down to 20 odd % then you get wipeout in first past the post elections
Yeah I understand how first past post works, I am asking what is the point of suggesting that the Tories will get 21% when that will clearly not happen. There will not be just 23 Tory MPs after the next general election.
The Tories have never polled less than 30% in 200 years and whilst I recognise that they are in dire straits it is pointless exaggerating and coming up with fantasy figures.
There are clearly a lot of people who currently are not prepared to say that they would vote Tory if there was a general election tomorrow but will do precisely that when the general election eventually comes.
I can't believe that I am having to argue that the idea of the Tories only having 23 MPs is daft!
Yip. As soon as a general election is called, the right wing press and the Tory campaign social media misinformation team will crank into action
The press will run stories about Labour wanting to rejoin the EU so that they can open our borders to Transgender, Muslamic,terrorist rapists who will be put up in a 5 star hotel when they arrive, then get given a house and a big telly so they can sit on benefits while simultaneously taking your job (and probably grooming children)
It’ll work and ‘disgusted of Tunbridge Wells’ will vote Tory, the same as they always do
As long as Labour end up with a working majority, I don’t care how many seats the Tory party end up with
I would put money on ‘my’ tory MP sill getting 50%+ vote come the election. He managed to get 50% in 1997 and has increased since then. I am surrounded by tory ****.
When even the plastic scotsman has turned against you there's a chance that Mr 50% may not get re-elected.
In the last US presidential election, it was the mobilisation of disenfranchised voters who swung the election. Now while the next UK election may not need them to bring labour to power, they could be significant in some constituencies like mr 50% and effect the margin of overall victory.
Some more analysis of the polling would be interesting.
How many trad tory voters are changing to labour (if any), how many are just not intending to vote?
How many mythical swing voters who voted tory at the last election will change to labour?
What are the voting intentions of people who didn't vote last time around? Do they still feel disenfranchised, are they motivated by any party or are they motivated to just get the tories out?
It’ll work and ‘disgusted of Tunbridge Wells’ will vote Tory, the same as they always do
They always will though but that's not the problem.
It's when 'absolutely skint of Nottingham' vote's Tory that there's a real issue. At this point in time, Labour are offering those people nothing, whereas the Tories will offer them nothing but give them someone to blame. It works well for them.
When even the plastic scotsman has turned against you there’s a chance that Mr 50% may not get re-elected.
As I said, I am willing to put money on him getting re-elected. Fancy a £1,000 bet?
It’s when ‘absolutely skint of Nottingham’ vote’s Tory that there’s a real issue. At this point in time, Labour are offering those people nothing, whereas the Tories will offer them nothing but give them someone to blame. It works well for them.
The Guardian did some polling in individual constituencies a good while back that showed that every single one of the ‘Red Wall’ seats would be returned to Labour if there were elections. That was long before the latest freefall in the polls.
Remember that most of these new Tory MPs up here are sat on paper-thin majorities (my own new Tory MP has a majority of 105) so all that’s required is a tiny percentage swing and they’re gone
Everyone up here can see that ‘Levelling Up’ was just a bollocks soundbite and that they were conned. None of those Tories will be here in two years time and they all know it.
showed that every single one of the ‘Red Wall’ seats would be returned to Labour
Yup, in fact the Labour lead in the 'red wall' seats is currently significantly higher than the national Labour lead :
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-23-january-2023/
And it's worth noting that every one one of those red wall seats, where Labour now have a huge lead over the Tories, currently has a Tory MP.
We won't see the Tories reduced to 23 seats in 18 months time but we will see exposed as a lie the repeatedly made claim that Labour can't win a general election without Scotland.
I suspect that a fair few SNP supporters will be disappointed at the sight of the Tories losing a general election.
FFS Ernie - why that old canard? its nonsense
its nonsense
Yup, but it doesn't stop people coming out with it:
And still less than 6 months ago the claim was being made that Scotland was crucial to Labour if they are to form a government:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-must-win-24-seats-27746332
The reality is that Labour could lose every single seat in Scotland and still form a government with a very comfortable majority.
The old canard is that Scots will be upset if the tories lose.
I agree about the scots seats - very rarely does it matter who Scotland votes for - it really makes no difference to who wins the westminster majority and in the event of a hung parliament the SNP will always vote down tories
The old canard is that Scots will be upset if the tories lose.
I don't generalise when talking about a nation.
You must have surely heard the argument that the Tory landslide victory at the last general election made the case for Scottish independence even stronger?
Based on that I think my comment concerning that I suspect a fair few SNP supporters might be disappointed at the sight of the Tories losing the next general election is a reasonable one.
Aye right!
You underestimate how much the tories are loathed by the independence movement and while there is no love for labour there is no movement in the polls SNP to labour to back up your point.
SNP run at high 40s in the polls and have done so for many years.
You do realise the scotsman is a staunchly unionist tory paper ad the record a labour supporting unionist paper?
there is no movement in the polls SNP to labour to back up your point.
I have no idea what you are referring to. I have just made the point that Labour can win a comfortable majority at the next general whatever happens in Scotland.
I haven't suggested anything about a movement in the polls from SNP to Labour. In fact I am saying whatever happens in Scotland will be fairly irrelevant to the outcome of the next general election. It is very unlikely to be on a knife edge.
You do realise the scotsman is a staunchly unionist tory paper ad the record a labour supporting unionist paper?
And? I haven't suggested that the argument which was put forward in those links was a valid argument.
In fact I said the complete opposite.
You obviously read my post because you commented on it but you apparently missed this:
we will see exposed as a lie the repeatedly made claim that Labour can’t win a general election without Scotland.
You were saying a fair few SNP voters prefer a tory westminster government to labour.
i am pointing out there is actually not a shred of evidence to suggest this and that its a unionist canard. I have never heard this by any scots independence supporter or not.
Find a single non unionist source to suggest this.
And?
When talking about scottish politics you need to be aware of the bias of your sources. I am not sure if you are aware.
we will see exposed as a lie the repeatedly made claim that Labour can’t win a general election without Scotland.
I agreed with you on that several posts ago
You underestimate how much the tories are loathed by the independence movement
Once labour are in power and the Scots don’t have the Tories to despise I reckon there’s a high chance that labour will begin to chip away at the SNPs hegemony and independence will be forgotten about. There’s nothing like a bit of feel good factor to defuse nationalist sentiment.
You were saying a fair few SNP voters prefer a tory westminster government to labour.
I used the word suspect. I have no idea. I don't talk to Scottish nationalists nor do I make much effort reading what they say. The only person banging on about the issue that I really hear is you.
If you reckon that all Scottish nationalists will be cock-a-hoop at a Labour landslide victory next general election then that's great. It will still prove my point about not over-inflating the importance of Scotland.
Scotland really really isn't half as important as you seem to think it is. It represents only 8% of the UK population.
Although you seem to mention Scotland in 95% of your political comments! 😆
So the Guardian / Observer are reporting Sunak was told in October "that the tax issue involved a significant sum of money and was not a trivial accounting error"
Downing St continue to deny and IIRC he also denied knowing at PMQ's. It's unnamed sources but the papers are usually pretty robust in checking, so who's telling lies and what is the penalty for misleading parliament if it's Sunak?
I suspect Sunak’s wording will have been careful not to mislead parliament… (eg new “information has come to light”… which doesn’t mean that he didn’t already have that information himself, or 90% of it)… but the public know what’s what, and they know what he and his party are about. They want them gone.
what is the penalty for misleading parliament if it’s Sunak?
Nothing. It has to be proven to be deliberate and IIRC any censure goes to a vote of the whole parliament. Its obvious he was at best being "economical with the truth"
Interesting how many leaks are coming out tho. Rival camps briefing? civil servants just so browned off with the lies?
Zahawi sacked.
Dagnammitt - too slow!
So Sunaks line of "due process . Wait for the investigation to be complete" did not last long
I'm guessing more lies to come out.
Edit - I now see that the investigation was completed this morning. That was rather quick.
Sunak's letter states the investigation has been completed and zahawi has seen the conclusions.
EDIT: if so, why did zahawi not offer to resign?
This allows sunak to claim he has acted decisively; ha!
Haha, times were reporting that some tories were expecting him to be cleared
https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1619610422163685379?t=P4P-RrlOX9bL_E2ZM-ZokA&s=19
But they were also saying he'd misled Simon case
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1619408653055918082?t=kvRInSerMTDZme-aczyJcw&s=19
Zahawi sacked.
It's OK, he'll be re-appointed in a couple of weeks as "the best person to lead the party forwards" or more new information coming to light about him really not meaning to accidentally put those millions into an offshore account instead of HMRC's account or the next Party Chairman being even worse...
The whole bunch of them are utterly corrupt to the core.
agree. he is guilty of getting caught. what about the rest of them with millions squirreled away so they don't pay their fair share of tax
is labour just as guilty or are they a bit smarter at not getting busted by the press?
Having been sacked that will make it much harder to reappoint him as he has not "done the honorable thing" although my guess is its a sacking to make Sunak look tough not that Zahawi refused to resign
As for labour - some of the same behaviour no doubt at all but its generally on a much smaller scale. Cooper is one who has consistently bent the rules to get rich but labour folk it tends to be in thousands not millions
ooh, it's schadenfreude Sunday.
Raab next please
Somehow he's still an innocent victim 🙄
https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1619635655835004929?t=FyUHO9_9-OTwSe0ZX3KjHg&s=19
Is there a 'clean skin' to replace him? Bit of a challenge that.
Is there a ‘clean skin’ to replace him? Bit of a challenge that.
Priti Patel?
is labour just as guilty or are they a bit smarter at not getting busted by the press?
No Labour aren't smarter imo. And a hostile press will always go through the affairs of politicians which they oppose with a fine tooth comb.
The story that Zahawi had agreed to pay several million pounds in tax to settle a dispute with HMRC was actually originally broken by the Sun on Sunday.
I don't know if it was the result of investigative journalism by the Sun on Sunday or someone tipped them off. Nor do I know their motivation behind their decision to publish.
It could have been simply because they felt it was an important exclusive story which would help to sell their paper. In which case I suspect they were tipped off rather than an example of investigative journalism - I can't imagine that the edit of the Sun on Sunday felt that it is the sort of scandal which their readers are so interested in reading about on a Sunday morning that it justify much effort uncovering.
Or it could be because the Murdoch owned title has decided to help the Opposition by uncovering and publishing a negative story about the Tories.
It is now all but certain that Labour will be in government in about 18 months time, Rupert Murdoch is well-known for liking to back winners - it helps to exaggerate the influence which he holds and creates the impression that he is owed favours. Political leaders are scared of Murdoch, if he can claim a role in bringing down a senior politician it will re-enforce that fear.
I see that Rees-Mogg has suggested a certain Mr. B Johnson should be the next party chairman.
There’s nothing like a bit of feel good factor to defuse nationalist sentiment.
So we'll be all feeling good within a couple of years?
Do you seriously believe that the current cluster**** is fixable in a few years - you think that, for example, we'll suddenly be producing twice as many cars as currently, and then selling them - are we joining the SM & CU on Day One, are we re-joining the EU on Day Two, or is it some economic miracle I'm unaware of?
It is interesting how on a forum which is so clearly hostile towards the current Tory government, and blames it for so much, there are still people who feel that the Tories merely have a marginal and insignificant effect.
A Labour government should represent a very positive and significant change. If you doubt that then I can't say that I entirely blame you.
I see that Rees-Mogg has suggested a certain Mr. B Johnson should be the next party chairman.
What an excellent suggestion. Count on JRM to speak sense, capture the mood of the nation and to select such a beacon of professionalism to chair the party.
Doubt he'd want it, lots of hassle involved, no real power, although full access to party donors would be attractive.
A Labour government should represent a very positive and significant change.
15 years of damage can’t be undone in 5. That’s a very challenging message for Labour… stopping the downward spiral the UK is currently in would be positive and significant change… but not being able to turn everything around before re-election will no doubt risk people with short memories turning back to the Conservatives, or even more likely to underestimate how important it is to keep them out and not bother voting.
Do you seriously believe that the current cluster**** is fixable in a few years
Of course not. But people will feel much better knowing the tories are gone and we have a govt which at least seems to want to fix these problems. There will be some quick wins. We can be fairly confident that money will start flowing into the NHS and care sector and the problems we see now will begin to improve. There will be quick resolution to public sectore strikes through improved pay deals. Local councils will be given a lot more money and people will be able to see things local to them improving. There's a whole load of stuff like that which is easily doable in one term.
are we joining the SM & CU on Day One, are we re-joining the EU on Day Two, or is it some economic miracle I’m unaware of?
The UK govt has enormous power to generate economic growth through it's own investment and policies. Having a more cooperative trading relationship with the EU would be beneficial, but it's not the be all and end all. The question is whether Starmer and the Labour party have the political courage to do what is required.
15 years of damage can’t be undone in 5.
Yeah except that hasn't been suggested by anyone.
Daz suggested that there might be "a bit of feel good factor" with the election of a Labour government.
This was challenged. It was suggested instead that there would be no feel good factor.
Presumably based on the belief that a Labour government would not inspire confidence of very positive and significant change.
Dazh suggested that in relation to Scotland. I'll bet there is no such effect here considering all the things the vast majority of Scots want are explicitly ruled out. There is also no movement in the polls SNP - Labour ( there is tory to labour as they are fighting over the unionist / brexiteer vote) nor any decrease in support for independence. the idea that the election of a tory lite government will change public sentiment here seems somewhat farfetched. But Dazh has made it clear he thinks Scotland both unimportant and he is uninterested so why he makes such sweeping statements seems odd to me
Its about perspective and the view from here is different. Yes a labour government will be a bit better. No it will not come anywhere close to meeting the aspirations of the scots people so will not put any significant dent in support for independence
The story that Zahawi had agreed to pay several million pounds in tax to settle a dispute with HMRC was actually originally broken by the Sun on Sunday.
I don’t know if it was the result of investigative journalism by the Sun on Sunday or someone tipped them off. Nor do I know their motivation behind their decision to publish.
Good timeline of the investigations here by the lawyer that's been looking into this for some time
Ft, indy, guardian, times been investigating him for a while
It is interesting that SoS published the scoop on his settlement
https://twitter.com/DanNeidle/status/1619640143438311425?t=Ct0gyraMtYrUFcjU4mRlcw&s=19
But Dazh has made it clear he thinks Scotland both unimportant and he is uninterested
On the contrary, I think Scotland is massively important which is why I don't want it to leave the UK, for much of the same reasons as the EU didn't want the UK to leave. I've also said many times that I believe leaving the UK would be very damaging to Scotland and all the people who live there, and I don't want to see that happen. We can see now what happens when a country cuts links with it's largest trading partner, so I'm genuinely surprised that many in Scotland are so enthusiastic about leaving the UK.
Dazh suggested that in relation to Scotland. I’ll bet there is no such effect here...
Bleedin 'ell mate, you are all over the place! Yesterday you seemed to suggest that Scottish nationalists would welcome a Labour government, when I said that I suspected a fair few might not. To the point where I conceded and said:
If you reckon that all Scottish nationalists will be cock-a-hoop at a Labour landslide victory next general election then that’s great.
Now today you are suggesting that whether there is a Labour government or Tory government probably makes no difference to Scotland.
But Dazh has made it clear he thinks Scotland both unimportant and he is uninterested....
I think the issue is your exaggerated importance of Scotland with regards to UK politics. I have no idea why you think everyone should care that much about Scotland, you constantly bring up it up on all political threads. The population of Greater London is over 3 million larger than Scotland's, how often is London discussed?
A Labour government should represent a very positive and significant change. If you doubt that then I can’t say that I entirely blame you.
Wait, what?
If Labour is just going to be the same as Tory, but with higher taxes, I shall vote Tory at the next election. At least with them there is the entertainment factor of wondering which one is going to be next to wind up in jail.
Seen quite a few tory supporters saying Lee Anderson needs to be in cabinet, even party chair 😂😂😂😂
At least with them there is the entertainment factor of wondering which one is going to be next to wind up in jail.
I don't think any Tory politician has ended up in jail for over 20 years. Not since Jonathan Aitken.
Edit: Today's bad boys are lightweights...... the best they can manage is Fixed Penalty Notices.
Erie - wisnae me that brought it up again 🙂
No What I said would be basically indifferent. Prefer labour to tory at westminster but the overall reaction will be meh! Very few in Scotland outside of die hard tories will prefer a tory government but a labour one will not generte much enthusiasm
Dazh - perhaps you could try to understand a little about scots politics then 🙂
Anyway - back on the delightful sidehow that is the tories tearing themselves apart.
What the next anti Sunak leak going to be? Its clear the leaks that he knew more about Zahawi and earlier came from a differnt faction in the party to damage Sunak. What next?
would be basically indifferent. Prefer labour to tory at westminster but the overall reaction will be meh!
Why do you moan about Tory governments so much then?
Dazh – perhaps you could try to understand a little about scots politics then
He says after apparently being oblivious to the effects of a Tory government on Scotland.
What next?
The report into multiple bullying cases (are we up to 30 now?) against the deputy PM and yet more questions about Sunaks wisdom with that particular appointment too
Aye - and Johnson in front of the privileges committee. Next set of leaks? who has more dirt on who? I expect someone to leak more info about what Sunak knew when
The report into multiple bullying cases (are we up to 30 now?) against the deputy PM and yet more questions about Sunaks wisdom with that particular appointment too
Surely it's got well past the point where no matter who Sunak appoints to what role, there'll be some dirt on that person somewhere. They're all horrible people, they're all corrupt to some degree.
It's like asking if you want elephant shit or rhino shit in your sandwich for the day. You're still getting a shit sandwich.
There may be a few clean ones around - but they are not daft enough to join the shower in cabinet is my guess. Certainly anyone with any sense is in hiding
It is probably very hard to find someone to be an MP who is simultaneously honest, believes wholeheartedly in the Boris vision for Brexit, and can be safely put in front of a camera.
Johnson purged the sensible ones when he forced them to vote for his Brexit deal: either they were bonkers enough to believe it would work or cynical /corrupt enough to know it was terrible for the country & went for it anyway.
A tory wipeout would be interesting, a whole new host of MPs would they go full Tea Party/ Trump or would the more traditional style tories come back?
To be honest I don't care anymore, i was very invested in the downfall of Boris and the unbelievable Trusster Cluck but im beyond bored now as I suspect are the majority of the population. The only thing I'm interested in now is the next election, I have no faith that the system, either political or legal, will hold any of them to account.
Full text of the letter from the investigator is now on the grauniad website. Its pretty damning
A tory wipeout would be interesting, a whole new host of MPs would they go full Tea Party/ Trump or would the more traditional style tories come back?
I think it depends on Labour actually working for the whole country rather than the oligarchs, I think Starmer could go either way. Populism needs to seed on fertile ground, 40 years of neoliberalism has created that fertile ground, reversing that trend is key in beating populism.
would they go full Tea Party/ Trump or would the more traditional style tories come back?
The ‘traditional’ one-nation Tory party doesn’t exist any more. Brexit killed it and Johnson finished the job with his purge of Brexit non-believers
The ludicrous betrayal narrative they’ve been busy nurturing for the last few years mean that any electoral defeat will be blamed squarely on not being Brexity/anti EU/right wing enough.
My money would be on them electing a totally unhinged ERG fruitloop as leader - Braverman or Badenoch - and for them to March off to the far right reaches of borderline fascism
The complete takeover of the party by those who ten years ago were considered just a fringe minority of headbangers would then be complete
The whole thing sacrificed on the alter of the monstrous ego of Boris Johnson and his Brexit opportunism. The ultimate irony being that he never even believed in it anyway
The only thing I’m interested in now is the next election
Absolutely this. This lot are done. Everyone knows it. It’s just a case of how long they limp on for before the inevitable. The entire country is sick to death of being at the mercy of the internal bickering of Tory factions, while everything turns to shit
The BBC will shortly be apologising for showing a fan at the Wrexham v Sheffield United game holding up a cutout FA Cup clearly marked "**** the Tories" 🤣
And the crowd are loudly chanting it now 😂
Blimey how did we get all these spivs, bullies, racists, snobs and thieves on to the national stage? It's so degrading.