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and some pretty depressing military muscle flexing.
Given that our entire armed forces amounts to a bloke shouting bang, a tired old Lancaster scattering poppies and a slightly larger sailing dingy, it's probably not going to be that distracting
Scotland generally has a more socialist leaning ethos
That isnt supported by the social attitudes surveys.
But it is by election results. Solid social democratic majority for 70 years, now standing at around 80% vote for social democratic parties and 20% for right wing parties. england is generally closer to 60 / 40 split
Ukip high point in Scotland was 7%. In England 25%
If holyrood was elected FPTP the SNP would have almost all the seats
Well we now know the answer to the question about trying to get people to 'rally to the flag'
Listening to Grant Shapps present speech, I've never heard such a load of scaremongering, sabre-rattling claptrap in my life. Look at all the big whizz-bang explodey things we've got and we're not afraid to use them. So there!
Followed by launching straight into 'you can't trust the left with our nations defence'
Its pathetic that they (no pun intended) want to weaponise this, but thats clearly the plan. I expect we'll get this flag-waving, Gggggrrrrrrrr..... just look at my fighter jets bollocks from Sunak this afternoon
it’s probably not going to be that distracting
Yes its a sideshow at best unless he decides to try to send the ground troops in and I dont think even he would be quite that dense.
We have one ship available which, once it fires off 50 or so anti air missiles, will either just hang around firing its guns from time to time or have to go to somewhere friendly to get rearmed. It doesnt have an offensive capability either (at least against the current opponents).
Can send typhoons on an occasional flight but its a long old flight.
Could maybe send a astute to the area to launch some tomahawks but again limited.
Its a common theme that when a country gets involved in any kind of armed conflict, threes a ‘rally to the flag’ effect. Would you put it past this lot to be both desperate and cynical enough to be deliberately winding up the threat posed for some kind of electoral advantage?
Yep incumbent and Conservative pal of choice Starmer.
They're both going to be at it.
That said I think interest rates and inflation will be the biggy.
Could go both ways currently but I reckon Oil definitely leading inflation.
Grant Shapps, just now:
"Some people, especially on the left, have a tendency to talk Britain down.. they believe Britain can no longer have the power to influence world events... I passionately believe these unpatriotic, Britain belittling doom-mongers are simply wrong..."
Looks like we're going full flag-shagging from now until the election then. Rishi will no doubt double down on this, this afternoon in Parliament
I wonder how many seconds he gets into his speech before he mentions Corbyn?
#middleclassleftyselfindulgence
Curious as to who you're directing this at. I remember not too long ago you were having a go at Corbyn and his supporters for bringing up the subject of local bus services, which I'm sure you will agree is another hot issue for salt of the earth "normal" working class people. Does that not come up on the doorstep? If I were to summarise various issues that different groups are bothered about you'd probably find the same issues coming up on the doorstep that we lefties like to talk about. I'll give you a list in fact..
Issues important to lefty sixth-formers:
The NHS/Social care
Schools
Workers rights/minimum wage
Public Transport (especially buses)
Progressive taxation
Equal rights
Not fighting wars
Issues important to middle class centrists:
Brexit
Electoral Reform
Getting the tories out (boooo!)
The national debt/govt finances
So which group of policies are coming up on the doorstep, and who do you think they align with?
patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel
though in the tories case it should probably be "patriotism".
Thats really not so Dazh - or certainly up here it is not
Brexit is a huge live issue as is getting rid of tories
or certainly up here it is not
Well yeah, but I'm asking binners what issues are coming up in normal working class Bury. We can't all live in a well educated politically aware utopia 😉.
I wonder how many seconds he gets into his speech before he mentions Corbyn?
And that will be a few seconds longer than you mentioning him again.
Torygraph polling looking grim for Li’ Rishi
One of two reasons for the prominence of this, either trying to stoke up the loons to kick him out and lurch even further rightwards, or to encourage further complacency in possible Labour voters. It's all part of the game.
Personally, I'd rather see a poll that showed a more realistic lead for Labour, get them ready to scrap for every vote. Apparently the Tories are out canvassing already in many constituencies - there's no way this is going to be in November.
EDIT:
Seems to be the first of the two options then:
https://twitter.com/AndyGJBurge/status/1746828763562750395
I remember not too long ago you were having a go at Corbyn and his supporters for bringing up the subject of local bus services,
Context dear boy. I criticised Corbyn for being politically clueless when there had been an enormous Tory * up (who can remember which one) and Grandad directed all his questions at PMQs about bus services and ignored the latest cluster-* completely
So which group of policies are coming up on the doorstep, and who do you think they align with?
I mentioned earlier that when you talk to people when doorknocking, the things they want to talk about are exactly what you've listed. Numbers one and two are the NHS and education, every single time.
You do get the odd mad UKIPer who'll bang on about immigration, which is always an eye-opener
I’d rather see a poll that showed a more realistic lead for Labour, get them ready to scrap for every vote. Apparently the Tories are out canvassing already in many constituencies – there’s no way this is going to be in November.
Labour have been doing for about 6 months at least. Actually it was about 12 months now, because I was out door-knocking when it was absolutely effing freezing in the middle of winter, on one occasion with a shadow minister. Its been properly stepped up now though and the Labour party will indeed be scrapping for every vote. There is zero complacency. Everyones thoughts are about Kinnock in 92.
Absolutely nobody believes theres going to be a general election in November. Its going to be in May
I mentioned earlier that when you talk to people when doorknocking, the things they want to talk about are exactly what you’ve listed. Numbers one and two are the NHS and education, every single time.
Yeah that was my point. Funny though that you spend all your time attacking the very people who want to fix these issues. I know you like to think that your self-styled lefty sixth formers are out of touch metropolitan middle class bedwetters but you're wrong. They have much more in common with the people you meet in Bury than you like to think. I know one thing for certain, it's not the lefties who spend all their time telling working people that we can't afford to fix the NHS or that we can't pay people proper wages.
I'm curious as to what you tell people on the doorstep about this stuff. Do you follow the party line and tell them everything is incredibly difficult, that the country has no money and that we need to live within our means? Or do you quiely tell them that it's all do-able but Starmer has to pretend to be a tory in order to get elected?
I’m curious as to what you tell people on the doorstep about this stuff. Do you follow the party line and tell them everything is incredibly difficult, that the country has no money and that we need to live within our means? Or do you quiely tell them that it’s all do-able but Starmer has to pretend to be a tory in order to get elected?
ask liz truss what happens to peoples mortgages if the markets think the government plans to not live 'within its means'
zero labour campaigning here - or from any other party
Looks like my seat is going to be a labour / SNP marginal from that torygraph poll. I'll have to see who the candidates are but our SNP MP is a vile liar and the labour candidate was very complicit in the statutory notice scandal and cover up. I'd find it hard to vote for either especially given Starmers clear disdain for Scotland
I'll be interested to see if the local labour party campaign against london labour policy as the candidate in Rutherglen did where they specifically repudiated several key london labour policies because they knew those policies are vote losers here
Leaves me with difficult decisions but at least whoever wins it will not be a tory
We need to drop this 1960s idea that the 'working class' is semi-literate blue-collar and the 'middle class' wears a tie and sits at a desk with a pen. If you work for a wage or a salary you are working class, even if you think otherwise. Most people are only a couple of wage cheques away from being midden class.
ask liz truss what happens to peoples mortgages if the markets think the government plans to not live ‘within its means’
That was a reaction to unfunded tax cuts for the rich.
The markets responded pretty well to the governments spending "not living within its means" in response to covid, and Ukraine.
ask liz truss what happens to peoples mortgages if the markets think the government plans to not live ‘within its means’
You think people in Bury are interested in what the markets think? I can imagine if Binners said to someone on the doorstep that we can't fix the NHS because the markets won't let us spend money that would be a guaranteed lost vote.
I’m curious as to what you tell people on the doorstep about this stuff.
I thought they only allowed binners to deliver leaflets?
Can you imagine him giving potential voters his usual avalanche of hyperbole and denouncing them as 'senile old racists/gammons/bigots'?
His lack of diplomatic skills and any semblance of tact is the stuff of legends in the Rose and Crown Ramsbottom!
He would be flouncing door-to-door! 😂
Dazh - but that is what Starmer / Reeves are saying
Are we ignoring* that Labour plan to invest billions more than the Conservatives, and spend more on the NHS and education? That they admit/claim/state that there will be limits on how much and how fast they can put money in might be super contentious with five to ten people on this forum, but to most voters it is not, and what's more they do not trust anyone claiming otherwise.
*again, like all these political threads. Stuck on repeat. A free puncture repair kit to anyone who can get this thread back on Sunak.
Are we ignoring* that Labour plan to invest billions more than the Conservatives, and spend more on the NHS and education?
Well the fact everytime the hard right rags says no Starmer immediately backs down yes it is reasonable to ignore it.
The strawmanning you go in for really is quite spectacular although if we are looking at whether voters trust someone or not. Lucky Starmer isnt uturning almost as fast as Sunak eh? Oh shit he is and the right wing rags will use it as necessary.
Are we ignoring* that Labour plan to invest billions more than the Conservatives, and spend more on the NHS and education?
Where is that committment becvause I have not seen it. all I* have seen is a willingness to stick with tory spending plans. Link perhaps?
Are we ignoring* that Labour plan to invest billions more than the Conservatives,
We're not so much ignoring as wondering whether it exists this week or not.
Schroedinger's Green Investment plan may or may not exist depending on who Labour is pitching it to at that particular moment.
Apparently the spending on NHS was going to be funded by ending non-dom status (under Labour's self imposed fiscal rules it has to be paid for) but now that plan is going to bring in less:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/12/flagship-labour-plan-scrap-non-dom-tax-breaks
The trouble is, everything seems to get u-turned on. Or watered down. Or quietly abandoned.
Labour may or may not be planning to increase spending. They are trying so hard to please everyone that they are constantly contradicting themselves to the point it is impossible to know what they are planning.
Labour are planning to invest and spend more. That they talk about prudent spending etc is because they listened to why people weren't voting Labour before. Happy to talk about the eleged, "U-turns" in the Starmer thread. This is one is now being filled with the same claims of the same few people. Odds on most people now ignoring this thread 'till something big happens relating to Sunak. Shame, but that's the pattern.
Happy to talk about the eleged, “U-turns” in the Starmer thread.
LOL! I assume that is supposed to read 'alleged u-turns'. Are you seriously doubting that Starmer has preformed any u-turns?!?!
What is this obsession with separating every political individual out into their own thread?
This is a mountain biking forum. One political thread is more than enough and yet Starmer fans seem to want to have a special thread where they can slag off the Tories unchallenged (let's face it, who is going to defend anything the Tories do at the point) while avoiding any uncomfortable questions on the 'correct thread for talking about Starmer'.
I can't be bothered looking through 8 different threads. If I've got something to say then I'll just say it on whatever thread everyone is already on that day.
The fact this thread is the one apparently reserved for slagging off Sunak means it is the right one to challenge Starmer fans because at least you are actually on this one.
Kelvin - I thought the Starmer / Reeves line was they are going to stick with tory borrowing and taxation levels. so no extra spending
got a link to this commitment to spend more because I haven't seen it - just the opposite
Getting money from non-dom changes was never going to happen. Yes it is a good idea to tighten up on it but not for monetary income as they will avoid paying it by whatever means possible
interesting take from the yougov poll for the torygraph
Kelvin – I thought the Starmer / Reeves line was they are going to stick with tory borrowing and taxation levels. so no extra spending
No. Borrowing to invest is on. From year one, but ramping up in subsequent years. Something like £100 billion for green energy alone in the first term. Where as "day to day" spending seeks to balance additional funding with tax changes in the first few years. So more investment AND more day to day spending. Both are to be increased. The former through "borrowing", the later through making taxes more progressive (through targeting tax rules that most voters understand as tax breaks/loopholes for the rich only).
What is this obsession with separating every political individual out into their own thread?
Posting the same points in all threads might be entertaining to a handful of repetitive posters, but it drives off all the infrequent posters, who do have interesting things to say when the thread stays on topic... but just abandon these threads when the same few people post the same stuff they've already flooded the other threads with and bears little relation to the topic of the thread they've opened for a quick read.
Id still like a link as that goes against everything I have read on labours plans. the whole green thing was 28 billion and has been taken from a pladge to an aim ie no hard committment
Something like £100 billion for green energy alone in the first term.
You really need to catch up with the backtracking. Its now an unknown amount possibly ramping up to the original 28 billion a year but based on their "fiscal rules".
Posted about this earlier in the thread. Have a go at the Sky interview the other day if you want, this really isn't for this thread though...
Relevant section of the interview is at 6:30
"Borrow to invest" is inside those fiscal rules.
Posting the same points in all threads might be entertaining to a handful of repetitive posters,
What is this "all threads" you talk of. There is this one and then a Starmer one somewhere way down the first page and other than that no political threads. Just need a thread called 'Current Political affairs' or something along those lines where we can merrily discuss Sunak, Starmer, policies or whatever without upset the thread police.
but it drives off all the infrequent posters, who do have interesting things to say when the thread stays on topic…
Exactly what voices do you think are missing from this particular thread? Do you think there are people with fresh takes that might make us rethink everything we know about Sunak but they don't post because we keep talking about Labour and Starmer?
I'm curious what you think this thread would look like if all mention of Starmer was banned. On topic seems to be slagging off Sunak with no one offering any opposing view.
Sure, we could do that but what would be the point? We know he's a busted flush and we know the Tories are destroying the country. Very few would argue against that.
What is up for debate is just how different things are going to be under Starmer. Unfortunately, we don't know because no one knows what the current pledges are and which ones have been abandoned.
Do you think there are people with fresh takes that might make us rethink everything we know about Sunak but they don’t post because we keep talking about Labour and Starmer?
Absolutely that. Well not some kind of ground breaking epiphany, just a broader sweep of voices about the actual subject of the thread.
Look, you and I are self aware enough to know whether we're one of those five to ten posters that ruin these threads for everyone else. I know I definitely am. And with that I'll shut up 'till everyone has had their 10 page repetitive discussion about Starmer and the thread gets back to Sunak in some way... in any way.
Exactly what voices do you think are missing from this particular thread?
I have barely posted in ages. It's just not worth it. Nothing new is being discussed, it's the same abrasive content from the same old terriers who keep on and on with the same old crap. I keep popping in to see if there's any news.
Look, you and I are self aware enough to know whether we’re one of those five to ten posters that ruin these threads for everyone else.
Actually, I think Labour are the ones ruining these threads.
They make pledges, they roll back, they unroll back partially, then reroll a bit more.
We're left unsure where they stand on anything and use our own preconceptions to fill in the gaps according to our own beliefs.
But OK, I'll try not posting for a while as well and see if anyone comes up with the incredible insight that means we all stop thinking Sunak is an out-of-his-depth right wing moron and is, in fact, a misunderstood genius.
I have barely posted in ages. It’s just not worth it. Nothing new is being discussed, it’s the same abrasive content from the same old terriers who keep on and on with the same old crap. I keep popping in to see if there’s any news.
Well if you posted something there would be some new content. What did you fancy discussing about Sunak today?