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The idea that Corbyn didn’t win in 2019 now means Labour must never offer popular and pragmatic left-wing non-market based solutions and simply be a bad cover version of the Tories is the most ridiculous and counter-intuitive political point I’ve ever seen made.
No-one said never, just not now. If after 5 years, with hopefully a decent majority to allow Labour a run at implementing some policy adjustments nothing has changed then - I'll be at the barricades with you.
No-one said never, just not now. If after 5 years, with hopefully a decent majority to allow Labour a run at implementing some policy adjustments nothing has changed then – I’ll be at the barricades with you
😉Well we will know eventually.
But when do politicians ever get more left-wing when in power?
Beside that - there are a million solid arguments that could be made for a better society - NOW not in 5 years.
I do like the barricade framing though. "One day more."
Electoral reform is absolutely critical to the wellbeing of the UK.
You miss the point. I didn’t say it wasn’t necessary, just that voters don’t give a shit about it compared to stuff that directly affects them.
A load of politicians navel gazing about how best to organise themselves with everything else going on will only reinforce the general view that they are only interested in themselves.
A load of politicians navel gazing about how best to organise themselves
This is nonsense though.
Its not about politicians organising themselves but about allowing peoples votes to count.
Its the exact opposite of what you claim. The politicians are, generally, opposed to it out of self interest.
Whilst the hard right press, tories and the centre right labour all hate the idea and so push this type of line given the results in brexit and indeed the on/off support for more radical parties I would argue there is a lot of desire for it.
Its just the special interest groups, aka those politicians and their patrons, dont like the idea for good reason.
But when do politicians ever get more left-wing when in power?
To be fair Starmer got in charge of labour with a rightwing policy position and then swung radically to the left purging any of those on the right or even centre who dared disagree with him.
So why not trust him now?
A new range of Dog chews at the trade fair.
I've still got the Spitting Image dog chews of Thatcher, Kinnock and the two Davids
A load of politicians navel gazing about how best to organise themselves with everything else going on will only reinforce the general view that they are only interested in themselves.
apart from thats not how it would be done. Follow the lead for devolution.l Cross party commission to look into it and come up with recommendations. Set it up . leave it to do its work, recommendations put to the electorate in a referendum. 3 years to do. No waste of political capital or energy
Without proper electoral reform at all levels the UK will remain backward looking and in thrall to the hard right. Its completely essential that this is done. If Blair had had the bottle to do it then we would not have had the hard right Tory governments since and would still be in the Eu
Cross party commission to look into it and come up with recommendations.
So politicians spending significant time figuring out the best voting system rather than fixing the NHS? God luck with that.
Not at all - thats why you have the cross party commission. So it doesn't take away time and energy from the government. Look at how devo9lution was done. We have 1500 parliamentarians at westminster We can spare a few backbenchers / lords to do this.
Constitutional reform is essential to modernise britain.
If you asked most voters for a list of issues they’d like the government to address as a matter of urgency, not only would constitutional reform be 160 places below wheely bin collections and pot holes, it’d be trumped by Wagon Wheels now being smaller and whether Ant and Dec are on the telly too often
You seem awfully sure about that
So what Binners. Constitutional reform is essential if the UK is to prosper and get rid of the hard right governments that damage the country so much
The public want to bring back hanging and the poor house! Cut benefits etc etc
speaking of reform.....
telegraph (unsurprisingly) suggesting yougovs latest polling means by the Tories need to fend off reform & go hard on immigration etc
mad nads meanwhile knows whats best
https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1746659711418507648?t=ArT5Zmsj7PA93OxRlF9Bwg&s=19
You seem awfully sure about that
Try knocking on doors with a local councillor or MP when they’re campaigning for an election and see how many voters bring up electoral reform
Wheely bins on the other hand…
#middleclassleftyselfindulgence
telegraph (unsurprisingly) suggesting yougovs latest polling means by the Tories need to fend off reform & go hard on immigration etc<br /><br />
The poll was commissioned by a group of Conservative donors called the Conservative Britain Alliance, Google has one single hit for them which leads to the telegraph page above, I guess that means it must be a new pop up grift from tufton st.
Still a lot of blue in that map for my liking, and I’d like to know who the flying *ity * still thinks the tories are worth voting for?, Probably to scare those aging Tory voters that are creeping towards deaths door to take one last big pull on that oxygen mask and get out and vote. Nice to see my region Dumfries & Galloway projected to turn snp, quite surprised to see it though as it’s been a Tory stalwart for ages due to farming and the age of folk who live here, no major employers and mostly relying on tourism. There’s also the large amount of folk who’ve retired here from down south or bought holiday homes in the area and at a guess I’d say the majority would vote Tory. I live in kirkcudbright and in my mothers street near the castle out of 25 houses there are 13 holiday homes.
edit weird formatting?
Nice to see my region Dumfries & Galloway projected to turn snp, quite surprised to see it though
Coule be as a result of the boundary changes.
I guess that means it must be a new pop up grift from tufton st.
I’d imagine that in front of an election a million and one domain names and Twitter accounts are being registered by the Tory/Tufton Street axis of bollocks for a misinformation campaign that will make Vote Leave look like a quaint, tiny backroom affair
Wheely bins on the other hand…
#middleclassleftyselfindulgence
Can you elaborate on that?
I am intrigued to learn why wheelie bins are a pressing problem on the minds of people in Labour controlled Bury.
No wonder you are struggling to engage with them over issues of national importance!
I doubt this particular list of voter priorities are exclusive to Bury
When you do the whole door-knocking thing and talking to people the main issues are exactly what you’d expect.. the NHS, education, the economy.
But wheely bins will come up 12,368 times before anyone mentions electoral reform
But wheely bins will come up 12,368 times
Why? I don't understand why wheelie bins is an important issue for the people of Bury.
Are they regularly not being emptied?
Other than that I can't think how it could be such an important issue for voters in Bury.
Edit: On the issue of electoral reform their appears to have been growing support, specifically from Labour voters, in support:
"The survey, by the National Centre for Social Research (NatCen), found this shift in attitudes is largely the result of an increase in recent years in backing among Labour supporters."
Maybe you should pop up and ask them?
You could do a survey
No need to be a smart arse about it. Just say what the issue with wheelie bins is, if it concerns voters more than electoral reform.
And since you have brought up the issue of surveys have a look at my edit of my last post.
"The survey, by the National Centre for Social Research (NatCen), found this shift in attitudes is largely the result of an increase in recent years in backing among Labour supporters."
Edit:
The newest question time was kind of interesting, but also kind of depressing... the audience was entirely 'floating voters'.
The main themes were,
1) NHS/social care is knackered
2) Stop getting involved in other countries wars
3) Electoral reform
4) Why is everything so expensive?
It’s ironic that prospective voters are fixated on wheelie bins when communal street bins as sunk into thousands of roads in continental Europe provide an obviously better solution. Most of Britain’s public problems are either directly caused by or hugely exacerbated by our chronic democratic deficit, including inequality of access to health, education, and wealth. None of those things are going to improve much long-term without electoral reform.
It’s ironic that prospective voters are fixated on wheelie bins when communal street bins as sunk into thousands of roads in continental Europe provide an obviously better solution. Most of Britain’s public problems are either directly caused by or hugely exacerbated by our chronic democratic deficit, including inequality of access to health, education, and wealth. None of those things are going to improve much long-term without electoral reform.
For sure... without huge reform, we are just chelping away at the edges of the problems, attack the cause, not the symptom.
But the average voter doesn't give a stuff about Ukraine or Gaza, they are just angy because thier shopping is more expensive and the price of petrol/gas has gone up. again.
Try knocking on doors with a local councillor or MP when they’re campaigning for an election and see how many voters bring up electoral reform
Wheely bins on the other hand…
#middleclassleftyselfindulgence
Maybe, just maybe, when people feel like they have no control over the big issues (because in a FPTP system where the parties only care about the couple of hundred thousand swing voters in key seats) then what they feel they can control becomes very important.
In Scotland I think you'll find people care about all the issues (including wheelie bins but that tends to be a bit further down the list of priorities than it seems to be in Bury). Perhaps when you have a system where your vote actually counts for something it focusses the mind a bit more? I very much doubt people in Glasgow are intellectually superior to voters in Bury on a genetic level.
I love the fact you think good honest working class people only care about wheelie bins while an electoral system that means people are able to influence the big decisions is purely a middle-class affectation.
Do you think working class people are too stupid to understand anything but wheelie bins? There are plenty working class people in Glasgow who would wipe the floor with you in any number of subjects, including (probably especially) politics.
#middleclasscondescension
Do you think working class people are too stupid to understand anything but wheelie bins?
I can do better than that, I think most people are too stupid and I am working class. Stupid is probably not the right word though and more to do with immediate priorities in their lives.
If it came to it and they had to understand economics, political motivations, what actually could be done versus what actually is done, the drivers behind decisions, council budgets versus central budgets etc,. they may struggle but they never get that far because wheelie bins, pot holes and NHS/Social care if/when they have to use it.
They have to trust people who have to understand it to do the right things which is where it goes wrong.
You can spot the folks who love a bit of political discussion who've never involved themselves in the actual business of real life campaigning. Like @binners I've canvassed for Labour, and where-ever that's been; Buckinghamshire, Northants, West Yorkshire, the issues are always the same, Why is everything so expensive, why are the roads full of potholes (nothing a MP can do about that one) why is hard to see a doctor, why are dentists so expensive, why is my food expensive...Very rarely is it world politics and even rarer still is it "We have to organise everything differently so that the party I like can win more often". (insert a rolling eyes emoji here)
The folks on these threads on this site are both "keen on politics" and left leaning, most folks I've met on the canvass are not keen on politics, in fact large amounts of folks go out of their way to avoid it, and most folks (IME) couldn't tell you what left/right splits mean, and have only the vaguest notion of what each political party represents beyond the broadest of broad strokes. Corbyn was unpopular, not because of the things he stood for (most folks didn't know) but that they didn't want him to be their Prime Minister.
You can spot the folks who love a bit of political discussion who’ve never involved themselves in the actual business of real life campaigning.
Perhaps you should come out in campaigning in Glasgow sometime. Saying that, I'm not sure if Labour actually campaigns on street corners anymore but the SNP definitely does.
It may sound crazy but people are able to draw a direct line between the problems they are having in their lives and how that interacts with the various systems of government.
Opinions are not in short supply, even if they are very different.
But then maybe both of us are right and it's just another Scotland/England thing:
I wonder if the independence/devolution debates made more folks north of the border more "politically aware" and involved than those of us in England.
But certainly for many down here electoral reform is considered a "nice to have", with many more pressing issues, which may be the tail wagging the dog.
The Conservatives have been carrying out electoral reform, changing the voting system to FPTP for elections Labour set up using other voting systems. We can have more of that by keeping the Tories in power.
So… anyway… this Sunak fellow… by signalling that he’s willing to run away from a May election, does that give his party the time and space to replace him…?
Very rarely is it world politics and even rarer still is it “We have to organise everything differently so that the party I like can win more often”. (insert a rolling eyes emoji here)
What is it with you and binner and your mix of sneering superiority and parroting of the tory attack lines? I cant help but think if you either of you came round I would actively start thinking about voting for Shapps than have someone you support in place.
The obvious counterpoint to your patronising claims is brexit. Something which went from being nowhere on the list of concerns to top in a very short period.
We could, of course, rather than relying on people who open the door to some random people knocking and can be arsed to speak to them is instead to look at support for electoral reform across the UK. It has been increasing across the board although tories for obvious reasons are against it as are labour mps again for the same reasons.
I doubt it, very few leaders want to give up the gig and definitely not only 2 years in. My take on the autumn election wibble is was Sunak trying to say its not a big deal, ive got more important stuff to do and it can wait. Going earlier without a good reason, ie going to increase a majority looks like throwing the towel in. May is a better bet for them to reduce the carnage, people will be in a better mood, sumer is coming and they might get more of the oldies out. Autumn nights are drawing in and the summer is gone. Also i cant see any big change between now and the autumn, only reason to carry on until then is to milk the sustem, Sunak will not be leader after the next election but a lot of MPs want the maximum chance to nold onto their seats if they can and May gives them a better chance of doing that.
As for the above if you dont get the point Binners was making about bins you really dont have your finher on the pulse of what average voters care about which explains alot.
very few leaders want to give up the gig
Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest he was deliberately giving them the time to replace him, more that it might be the result whether he wants it or not.
Also i cant see any big change between now and the autumn
A desperate party might try and create a change. They might think that a new leader might dominate the news cycle with new messaging ahead of a general election. Can’t see it working out of them… but if they become sure that sticking with Sunak isn’t going to work either…
We can have more of that by keeping the Tories in power.
We can have more of that by ignoring any option of reform. Its telling how quickly new new labour resort to the same line the tories are using now "dont vote for us and you are voting for the other fptp choice".
So… anyway… this Sunak fellow… by signalling that he’s willing to run away from a May election, does that give his party the time and space to replace him…?
Not really since there isnt much time really. November does seem about the latest it is sensible to have the election.
Unless they have a coronation rather than a contest they will lost about 2 months to the leadership contest.
Then just have a couple of months before summer recess/conference.
Then electioneering.
Doesnt give much time to make an active impact in "I passed these laws blah blah".
As for the above if you dont get the point Binners was making about bins you really dont have your finher on the pulse of what average voters care about which explains alot.
And yet if we had listened to Binners he would have also told us brexit was unimportant back in 2014 and wheelie bins were the problem.
Explains a lot.
Doesnt give much time to make an active impact in “I passed these laws blah blah”.
”I have a new agenda, and you’ll only find out if it’ll work if you vote for our MPs”
Untested might be better for the Conservatives going into an election, rather than tested and failed (in the eyes of the voters).
As for the above if you dont get the point Binners was making about bins you really dont have your finher on the pulse of what average voters care about which explains alot.
Yes, he's saying the English are ignorant savages who shouldn't be allowed out in public, let alone given the vote.
The fact that Scotland is able to demonstrate a higher level of political understanding, while at the same time worrying about wheelie bins and potholes, is because of our genetic superiority. It definitely is not because a combination of voting systems means the public was forced to educate itself about political systems and not just accept the status quo.
I wonder if the independence/devolution debates made more folks north of the border more “politically aware” and involved than those of us in England.
Yes - certainly in how to use the various votes. Its rather forced on us as we have complex electoral systems different for different elections but I have no doubt across the board people are more politically engaged
The fact that Scotland is able to demonstrate a higher level of political understanding
Haven't they always had that though? Evidenced by never having many tories. Okay I hate tories so am a bit biased but anyone with basic political understanding can see that the tory party is never going to the best choice for the majority of peoples lives but yet English voters get suckered into voting for them more often than not.
Haven’t they always had that though? Evidenced by never having many tories.
I don't even know where to start with this. You could start with some history.
anyone with basic political understanding can see that the tory party is never going to the best choice for the majority of peoples lives but yet English voters get suckered into voting for them more often than not.
.. and then follow up with some psychology...
Untested might be better for the Conservatives going into an election, rather than tested and failed (in the eyes of the voters).
Thats not a problem since they are pretending they are a new party each week anyway although I take your point.
Even so it strikes me as unlikely since it would be a major gamble that they could recover things and if they did have a catastrophic defeat then they would be the ones listed as "led the tories to a wipeout".
Which wouldnt be great for their ego and also risk any chance of a political career beyond backbencher.
Best to wait and lead in opposition.
Haven’t they always had that though? Evidenced by never having many tories.
the independence referendum and the complex PR systems is the main source of this divergence in political engagement. Its not a huge difference but its there. Apart from UK wide elections there are no wasted votes in Scotland. all votes matter in both Hollyrood and council elections. I think this focuses people more
Scotland generally has a more socialist leaning ethos - the two are different but interrelated
I have no doubt that PR for westminster would increase political engagement as its no longer a few floating voters in marginal seats that the parties need to appeal to but every voter in every seat
Anyway... fascinating though the debate about the relative intelligence of English and Scottish voters is.... this Rishi Sunak fella. The one this thread is meant to be about. You know... the present Prime Minister....
He's giving a speech on the whole Yemen situation in Parliament this afternoon. Grant Shapps is making a speech on the same this morning. With what 'Lord' Dave said yesterday about 'the lights flashing red on the global dashboard' I get the distinct impression that this is being deliberately ratcheted up to provide a suitable distraction and some pretty depressing military muscle flexing.
Its a common theme that when a country gets involved in any kind of armed conflict, threes a 'rally to the flag' effect. Would you put it past this lot to be both desperate and cynical enough to be deliberately winding up the threat posed for some kind of electoral advantage?
Nothing to do with the present polling predicting a complete electoral whitewash?