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It’s not a question beating the Tories. It’s not a football game.
I agree, it's an odd comparison as it's infinitely more important.
It’s about registering your opinion. Like the Reform voters are doing. They have no chance of ‘winning’ but their bullshit is what is driving the Tories to the right and consequently Labour.
I registered my opinion twice in the last 2 elections and we still have a Tory government. Opinions on here are 10 a penny, GE day is the only day they count.
My advice would be to read the manifestos and vote for the party/candidate whose policies most closely align with your own views.
I agree, when mixed in with a dose of the reality we are living in and might live in for another *5 years*, God forbid.
As I’ve said many times, voting for a rightwardly shifting Labour party is going to be worse for the country in the long run than voting for parties who you fundamentally agree with.
6 to 10 years from now will have to look after itself im afraid. Time is not a luxury we have.
I'm concerned about the next 5 years not adding to the last 14.
As I said, I'm not looking to change your mind but the counterpoint must be made.
the best you can have is Starmer, deal with it.
So we are not allowed to discuss how we feel it could be much better than that, on a discussion forum?
The best we could have had was Starmer a few years ago before he threw pretty much everything out and became a tory. As some have said, the policy details don't matter as nobody reads them, so why did Starmer feel he needed to throw everything out to beat someone who was clearly losing on their own. Isn't that the best opportunity you have to get elected with the policies you seemed to stand for a couple of years ago?
so why did Starmer feel he needed to throw everything out to beat someone who was clearly losing on their own. Isn’t that the best opportunity you have to get elected with the policies you seemed to stand for a couple of years ago?
Apologies as I know you aren't quoting me before stating the above. This is just my opinion as it's all I have.
Ideally I'd love to have a leader similar to Corbyn. I really did vote for him twice. I'm genuinely sad to say that on both occasions I knew he wouldn't win. The media and general perception had undermined him to the degree I knew it was a lost cause. Still, he had the best chance of any party in my area of ridding me/ us of our Tory MP so I was glad to align my pragmatism with my ideals and I would do so again.
Now? I see myself as part of a coalition. I dont necessarily agree with every ideal of those that vote Labour/LibDem /Green/SNP but I see those votes as broadly aligning with my own.
I only have one significant difference with some of them; Those that vote according to impeccable and rigid ideals to the point of facilitating yet another 5 years of Tory governance. I understand the notion but I'll never agree with it.
Ideals are important but a malignant entity such at the Tory party thrives upon them and vomites them back at us.
So...
I'll preserve my ideals where they hold up to reality and temper them when a coalition of broadly aligned people is so desperately needed.
This is such a time.
Ideally I’d love to have a leader similar to Corbyn. I really did vote for him twice. I’m genuinely sad to say that on both occasions I knew he wouldn’t win. The media and general perception had undermined him to the degree I knew it was a lost cause.
So did I but it was lost votes that helped to return a Tory in my area and did nothing to drag the labour party to a realisation that the policies he was espousing were going to lead to government in future, if anything showed that the opposite was true. If a different leader / same policies offer was made would the experiment return a different result - maybe, but another 5+ years of what this lot are doing is a lot to risk on it.
Nobody wants radio or chemotherapy, it's long, painful, and will leave you vomiting, blistered and bald. But when the option is cancer there's no point refusing it because you wish there was another choice. This lot are a cancer on the country and whether you want Starmer and Labour or not, it's the treatment on offer right now.
To those that say their conscience won't let them, or their conscience is such that they have to vote for another party more aligned to their views. I admire your convictions, but I'll be wanting words with your conscience if it returns another 5 years of this. Ask it if it will wake up on the day after the GE and be OK with the outcome.
The best we could have had was Starmer a few years ago before he threw pretty much everything out and became a tory
Well, quite. I felt that centre left policies combined with competent leadership was a powerful combination which is why I and thousands like me supported Starmer, having previously supported Corbyn. An inconvenient fact our resident man child likes to forget.
That Starmer has ditched virtually every promise he made is why I shan't be voting for him.
6 to 10 years from now will have to look after itself im afraid. Time is not a luxury we have.
This is a very dangerous way to think.
Do you honestly believe that 5 years of Tory rule will lead to the UK looking like Sudan or Somalia? I would assume you don't, so how bad do you see the UK being in 5 years if the Tories get in again? Italy? Hungary?
There's a lot of unhelpful hyperbole around this issue so where exactly do you see the UK sitting on the Human Development Index after another 5 years of Tory rule?
“Tories… not turning the UK into Somalia”
Great. Personally, I want them out and our downward slide, that’s obvious to the rest of the world, beginning to be reversed. If you don’t, fair enough. And we understand your “long game” reasoning, we’re just not prepared to see the UK further wrecked while we wait. Improve the situation we’re in… and keep pressing for better and better. The whole “burn it down so we have to rebuild” doesn’t take enough account of all the good people that’ll suffer the burns on the way for me to get onboard.
Get the Tories out.
After that, battle for more.
The tories will lose the next election, using "get the tories out" as an excuse for labour right wing policies is just that, an excuse. There is now no longer any reason to play the game by adopting the tory narrative unless you actually believe that narrative.
We currently have a once in a generation opportunity to bring in a transformational change in the political direction the country is heading, unfortunately that looks like it will be thrown away by adhering to the same thinking and rules that have already failed. Now more than ever is the UK ready to be shown why the current economic landscape has failed them, because they can see and feel it every month as their paycheck barely covers their costs, they can see the failure every day in their lives and on the news.
As for the culture war, that will also only be won by transforming economic inequality, give people hope that they can actually have economic rights, choices and freedoms, rather than spending lives afraid of bills and insecure jobs that barely pay a living wage, and then the populists will have less of a hook to bait them with hate.
The election isn’t yet won. Anyone who votes or abstains on the assumption that it already is hasn’t paid attention to election (and referendum) votes in the UK. That complacency of leaving it to everyone else to tick the box to achieve a positive result will be shared by millions. The Tories will be praying that there is enough if you that stay home, or vote to make a point not choose your MP under our voting system. They’ll be pushing to get the highly motivated right wing vote out, and hoping everyone else sees it as a done deal that they can sit out, either by not dirtying their hands supporting a candidate that doesn’t match their wants and dreams 100% or not bothering at all. It really isn’t over ‘till after Election Day. And this isn’t a pro Labour angle. If I was in a LibDem/Tory marginal I’d be doing whatever I could to get the LibDem candidate elected, even if disappointed in their current leader and some key policies.
Anyone who votes on the assumption that it already is hasn’t paid attention to election (and referendum) votes in the UK.
It is the centrists who ignored the results, or rather the reasons for the results. The prefer to smugly blame the disenfranchised, call them stupid and racist, rather than see that they have suffered decades of financial inequality with little hope of change. And now when we have a real opportunity to change, you want them to continue living on their knees, because only the name of the party that implements neoliberal policies matters, not the actual policies.
Anyone who votes on the assumption that it already is hasn’t paid attention to election (and referendum) votes in the UK.
Don’t be coming round here with your cold harsh reality
We only do lefty middle-class self-indulgence idealogical purity 😉
Meanwhile, back in the real world…
Sunak ‘dodging scrutiny’ by failing to appoint chair of Climate Change Committee
We only do lefty middle class self indulgence idealogical purity
True, you have been very supportive of purging progressive voices from the labour party. Like the other free speech idealists Trump and Musk, you only want free speech you agree with.
Eh? Not being overly melodramatic there eh fella? Are you being repressed? Come and see the violence inherent in the system….
Anyway… you’ll have to excuse me… I’m off out to spend the morning delivering Labour Party general election leaflets. You know.. to see if we can actually get rid of the ****ing Tories! Ciao!
And now when we have a real opportunity to change, you want them to continue living on their knees
Er… if you say so. If I lived in the only English seat that is (or is close to) a Labour/Green marginal, then I’d be in more of a quandary. I’ve donated to Lucas’ campaign funds at every election she’s stood in, she’s been a great MP. She’ll be missed. But as it is, for me and people in nearly every seat in England, the choice is simple… group around and support the Labour or LibDem candidate most likely to defeat and keep the Tories out, or split or reduce the vote and help gift them another seat.
Point of order – it was just a standard European social democratic position. Nothing far left about it.
+1
Corbyn may have ended up toxic with voters but that doesn't somehow make his policies far left. That isn't to say you should or should not avoid labour because they've swung away from that position, but it is important to call it out when someone spouts a false equivalence. It would be just as important if someone was claiming the current Tory policies are moderate, for example.
so how bad do you see the UK being in 5 years if the Tories get in again?
5 more years of the tories will look much the same as it does today. 5 years of Starmer’s Labour Party will also look much the same as it does today. No one is offering an alternative to the neo-liberal austerity driven status quo so thinking anything will be different is just a wishful thinking fantasy.
And now when we have a real opportunity to change, you want them to continue living on their knees, because only the name of the party that implements neoliberal policies matters, not the actual policies.
How do we do that then?
Binners you can’t whine about self indulgent middle class lefties whilst at the same time delivering leaflets with a picture of a middle class lawyer from who hails from suburban London. Starmer is the very epitome of a left-leaning middle class liberal, but you seem to be a bit confused that he’s something else.
How do we do that then?
My suggestions would be stuff like.
Massively reduce government outsourcing contracts, so the money goes to well paying stable jobs rather than corporate shareholders.
Invest more in the NHS, pay Nurses, Doctors and Dentists better and as those roles become more attractive create a plan to actually train more people for those roles.
Nationalise transport, power and water.
Bring back council housing (or some form of public housing) that is actually about providing good economical homes for people and not just an excuse to subsidise corporations (see point one). Also look at other ways to deflate the housing cost bubble.
Fund the HMRC so that the can properly investigate the tax affairs of corporations and the wealthy, and a tightening of rules that allow the wealthy to avoid tax).
A big increase in the non taxable allowance, to lower tax burden that would be felt most by the poorest (I would also stop the claw back of the non taxable allowance for the wealthy as I don't think the actual benefit of the clawback is worth it).
There’s f-all you can do, because we don’t live in a true democracy where people get to vote for a range of alternatives. There is only one choice on offer, which is pretty much what we have now.
As above MSP, what’s the best way to achieve that? What route makes that more likely?
It can't be achieved in one election cycle, we need to start voting for parties that represent more progressive ideals. Then if enough do that hopefully Labour will start realising that they can't just keep taking us for granted, that we do actually have somewhere else to go, and instead of keeping moving to the right to capture tory voters, they return to their traditional principles.
At the moment I am not sure where my vote will go, but I think the only thing that labour could do to secure my vote, is to get behind some proper election reform, that is the one thing for me that I believe no matter what else they did or failed to do would benefit the country over the next 10, 20 years and beyond.
Isn't that what Corbyn offered, and got soundly rejected?
It can’t be achieved in one election cycle, we need to start voting for parties that represent more progressive ideals
By the same folk who complain when politicians won't think beyond five years? Ironic ..
Corbyn got rejected in very unusual times, in the media frenzy of "get brexit done" and unparalleled attacks on him by the media and the PLP. And lets face it several more right wing leaning labour leaders have also been rejected by the electorate.
It is becoming quite a repeated meme on here now, to once again follow the tory leadership and say "yeah but Corbyn", who will be the next copycat centrist to do a boris?
By the same folk who complain when politicians won’t think beyond five years? Ironic ..
Well it would be ironic if I hadn't been making the point that we need to think beyond a single election cycle for quite a while, maybe you are mistaking me for someone else.
As above MSP, what’s the best way to achieve that? What route makes that more likely?
Independence for Scotland! (runs away)
this could also be a trigger for real reform in England and Wales as some of the last vestiges of empire would be gone and it could wqell act as a trigger for reform - especially when those south of the border see what a real social democracy is like
At the moment I am not sure where my vote will go, but I think the only thing that labour could do to secure my vote, is to get behind some proper election reform
Which is, of course, why the right of labour hate the idea.
It makes them far more powerful although it does rely on their cry of "not voting for us is a vote for the tories" whilst conveniently skipping over how they are happy enough to have enabled brexit and tory victories when things werent going their way in labour.
Compromise for them is allowing the left to vote in a GE for Labour but not inside labour.
There are much higher priorities than electoral reform. With the NHS, schools and the welfare state collapsing and and the cost of living rising ever higher, voters will not forgive any party or politician who wastes their time on what looks like technocratic political self indulgence.
Electoral reform is absolutely critical to the wellbeing of the UK. We need a proper representative functioning democracy
Without it then the country is stuck with unrepresentative governments that only need win a few tens of thousands of votes in marginal seats and with it we could never have a hard right government like this one again
Its absolutly critical to have electoral reform and I am astonished you think it an indulgence Dazh.
A new range of Dog chews at the trade fair.
There is a rishi one.
voters will not forgive any party or politician who wastes their time on what looks like technocratic political self indulgence.
Its not self indulgence but thinking about how to fix the systematic problem rather than going short term or, as the centre right lot want, thinking longterm about personal power and influence.
There is no point Labour starting and it can only be starting to fix the tories mess until 2029 where the tories would be able to point out not everything has been fixed, get back in and then promptly flog it for pennies on the pound to their mates.
Oh goody. This thread goes the same way as all the others with the same little rays of sunshine and their annoyingly sunny upbeat optimism. Again...
The Tories will be praying that there is enough if you that stay home, or vote to make a point
I'll vote for the party that is most closely aligned with my political beliefs. If you believe that is "making a point" then crack on.
Oh goody. This thread goes the same way as all the others
Agreed. Nothing to do with your childish, repetitive insults of course.
Corbyn got rejected in very unusual times, in the media frenzy of “get brexit done” and unparalleled attacks on him by the media and the PLP. And lets face it several more right wing leaning labour leaders have also been rejected by the electorate.
It is becoming quite a repeated meme on here now, to once again follow the tory leadership and say “yeah but Corbyn”, who will be the next copycat centrist to do a boris?
Absolutely.
The idea that Corbyn didn't win in 2019 now means Labour must never offer popular and pragmatic left-wing non-market based solutions and simply be a bad cover version of the Tories is the most ridiculous and counter-intuitive political point I've ever seen made.
Oh goody. This thread goes the same way as all the others with the same little rays of sunshine and their annoyingly sunny upbeat optimism. Again…
The irony here.
If Labour/Starmer were actually offering something a lot better up than they are - then voters wouldn't be saying they're all the same.
It's a product of his making.
Bi9nners - If we had an actual democracy in the UK you would be right. But we do not. We have an ill functioning pseudo democracy that leads to bad governments and includes repre4sentatives of one and only one church along with a majority of unelected members and local government that has very little ability to do anything.
The irony here.
He's not dumb enough to miss the irony, so I can only assume he's doubling down, which at least puts him in tune with contemporary politics.