[Closed] Right to be peeved? Kids nativity content

what were the pop songs?

Oh, I don't know - modern stuff, not the classics like "When Shepherds Wash Their Socks By Night" 😀

Well Ben - since you want to quote guidelines, I'll trump you with Government Circular 1/94, which is still Extant:

[i]
All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual, moral and cultural development.

[b]Local agreed RE syllabuses for county schools and equivalent grant- maintained schools must in future reflect the fact that religious traditions in the country are in the main Christian[/b] whilst taking account of the teaching and practices of other principal religions. Syllabuses must be periodically reviewed.

[b]Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character,[/b] though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination.

The [b]parental right of withdrawal from RE [/b]and collective worship and the safeguards for teachers are unchanged. Local bodies advise on RE and collective worship and recommend new RE syllabuses. They represent faith groups, teachers, the LEA and grant- maintained schools.[/i]

So, you'll find that the school are quite clearly following the law, as set out in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, Schedule 20

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/31/schedule/20

I'm kind surprised that secular school would even mark a religious festival as couldn't any celebration be seen as trying to convert people?

Not a secular school - a non-denominational school.
The schools do not exclude religious teaching. Quite the opposite. My kids, who also attend Scottish non-denominational school operating under the same guidelines, are far more knowledgeable in the study of comparative religions than I am.....because they got taught it at school in the same classroom as Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and atheist kids. They have visited various places of worship of varying faiths as part of this....but never a Christian church.

Was the minister a bit naughty? Yes. Yes he was.
Was it worth emailing the heedie and starting an internet rammy? Probably not.

Which bit of the bible has all the presents and wrapping paper and debt and drinking and turkey and sprouts? (although I could believe sprouts are christian, ****ing evil things that they are)

If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that's the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. 'Sorry we don't believe in religion junior so you're not getting a present today.'

This is just straw man nonsense. I'm more than happy for my kids to learn about religions, and to participate in the exchange of gifts during a particular time, which is currently appropriated by Christianity. None of this implies a belief in god.

I expect most atheists are the same.

Im not saying its any different to any of the other religions you mention. But the nativity is a christian story. So i don't see what difference there is in putting on a christian play and then subsequently having some bloke stand up and talk about it and lead a prayer. If you don't believe in it then just ignore it. Explain this to your (almost certainly) very bright children and move on. Exactly the same as if they celebrated any other religious festival.
Thats all I'm saying.

I'll trump you with Government Circular 1/94

Which applies in England and Wales - Scotland has a separate education system.

But the nativity is a christian story. So i don't see what difference there is in putting on a christian play and then subsequently having some bloke stand up and talk about it and lead a prayer. ... Exactly the same as if they celebrated any other religious festival.

At Ramadan, they didn't have the local Imam come in and ask everyone to kneel facing Mecca.

It's not exactly how they celebrate other religious festivals.

although I could believe sprouts are christian, **** evil things that they are

That would explain why you have to put a cross into them

So i don't see what difference there is in putting on a christian play and then subsequently having some bloke stand up and talk about it and lead a prayer

You can't see the difference between storytelling, and an authority figure trying to tell children that the story is all true and they must believe it? I think it's quite easy to spot the difference.

did they sing R.E.S.P.eeeee.ceeee.T. find out what it means to me.

i like that one, but it doesnt get used at christmas much.

I see Ben's point of view. Not sure that I would have done anything about it myself, but I completely understand why one would be moved to do it.

There are a number of reasons for a child to take part in the school play beyond its content, just as there are a number of reasons for a parent of any (or no) religious persuasion to want to watch their child in that play. The fact it's a condensed, theatrical version of the central Christian story can be quite secondary to these other reasons.

What's most interesting is the almost institutionalised response: people sat there quietly (head bowed or not) when a preacher decided to "lead" them in prayer. I'd be more concerned about the effective exploitation of the audience's politeness than the religious content.

Me, I'd have let my mind wander in a moment of quiet and then considered sending an email to the school to remind them of their religious responsibilities. But, being an agnostic, I'd have quickly forgotten all about it.

At Ramadan, they didn't have the local Imam come in and ask everyone to kneel facing Mecca.

It's not exactly how they celebrate other religious festivals.

Well maybe they should have done.

At Ramadan, they didn't have the local Imam come in and ask everyone to kneel facing Mecca.

Would you have objected to the local Imam coming to the school and saying a few words after any celebrations the school organized?

Same for Rabbi after passover?

Personally I think it would be great to get more religion into schools, might reduce some of the conflict in the world, if we all understand a bit more about each other.

There are a number of reasons for a child to take part in the school play beyond its content, just as there are a number of reasons for a parent of any (or no) religious persuasion to want to watch their child in that play.

Well, quite. As I sat watching my beaming daughter - dressed as a donkey - singing at full volume and wildly out of tune, I will confess to getting a bit misty eyed. I'm delighted the school went to so much effort to put on a good show.

Just accuse of him of being a paedo - you wont see him again, he probably is anyway.

Seriously though, given the context of the day it's not a massive surprise, is it? and even though it is a bit naughty you really are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I suggest in the spirit of christmas you forgive the vicar his transgression.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If I went to see a play that was, as far as the kids (and anyone with half a rational brain) can tell, just a story then had to pray after it in an environment where praying is expressly not allowed I'd be miffed.

If it helps I went to a "secular" school that rammed Christianity down my throat in the 90's (we were allowed one Jewish song a month, as a token) which had the undesired effect of me getting sick to death of it and becoming a good, healthy, well rounded atheist. Hopefully your daughter will end up the same as you and I.

The minister is just telling a story. Is ben not an authority figure in his kids lives? Can he not explain to them that what the bloke is saying is a load of pish? I'm pretty sure he is and that he does.
He's only an authority figure if you treat him that way. i.e. if you're a christian.

Would you have objected to the local Imam coming to the school and saying a few words after any celebrations the school organized?

Depends entirely on what those words were. If they were along the lines of "we believe in such-and-such" then great, all for that. If they were along the lines of "this is absolutely true, you must believe it, and now we'll all pray to my God" then definitely not on.

You can't see the difference between storytelling, and an authority figure trying to tell children that the story is all true and they must believe it? I think it's quite easy to spot the difference.

It's the hipocrisy of the OP that gets me - 'I'll let her take part in this religious play because it's cute and nice, but I'll be shocked when a representative of the religion speaks about it at the end'.

(FWIW - I'm an athiest so have no religious axe to grind).

COMPLETELY with the OP on this. Whilst I have no issue with religious education and awareness, how DARE any school present their choice of fairy story as fact. IMHO, this country feels like it's gone backwards on this in the last few years, the conservative Christian position seems to have had a stealthy resurgence. I could be completely wrong, it may just be my perception I suppose.

All of you 'get a grip, it's a Christian country' brigade would be up in arms if they started poo pooing evolution in favour of Genesis at your child's school I would imagine (or at least hope). THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. A story that some people believe should always be presented as such to impressionable young minds. To present it as fact when no scientific proof exists is absolutely disgusting and is nothing more than indoctrination, plain and simple. It should be illegal.

I think most non denominational Scottish Primary schools are like this OP. Ours are in EK and the local Church of Scotland Minister attends many assemblies, nativities, etc in a formal role.

I think the key in the guidance is around

without compromise to their personal faith stances

and in answer to your original question, I'd say no. It is the norm, get used to it or put your kids in private school where you pay to get choice.

how DARE any school present their choice of fairy story as fact

Never heard of faith schools?

I like this one

Gary_M - Member

I don't believe in god so you can't have a present? Good one.

If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that's the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. 'Sorry we don't believe in religion junior so you're not getting a present today.'

Because gifts are the exclusive preserve of Christianity and it's the bible which preaches most about giving extravagant and exorbitant gifts to ones own whilst ignoring all the poor and needy all around.

It's the hipocrisy of the OP that gets me - 'I'll let her take part in this religious play because it's cute and nice, but I'll be shocked when a representative of the religion speaks about it at the end'.

The OP is pointing out that the school is not following its own guidelines. You'll have to explain why that is hypocritical.

Seriously? Atheist? Nativity play? Religion? Prayers?
Seriously? 😯
The human race is doomed..

Ben, my apologies for the fact that I forgot you were in the frozen north.

If you don't want to expose your children to views and beliefs other than your own, or those you are willing to tolerate, then educate them yourself or at the very least withdraw them from any activity in school that may have a religious element.

The OP is pointing out that the school is not following its own guidelines. You'll have to explain why that is hypocritical.

If religion in schools bothered him that much he should have complained beforehand about them putting on a Christian play, or withdrawn his daughter.

I am a raving Hoxhaite atheist and you are being unreasonable, OP.

If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?

It is. It is a non-denominational Scottish state school. Do I need to quote the guidelines again?

Under the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 Education Authorities have a statutory duty to provide Religious Observance and Religious Education in Scottish schools. This continues the requirements of previous Education Acts. Furthermore parents / carers have a legal right to withdraw their child from such provision.

Objecting to the presence of religion in a [i]nativity play [/i]is of course stone bonkers. But that's not, as I understand it, what the OP is objecting to; rather that the school broke the rules. In that instance, a polite email is perfectly justifiable I reckon.

Your militant Agnostics would hold that Atheism is just as much a faith as any of the religions.

They really wouldn't. Quite the opposite in fact, that's sort of the point.

Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.

And that's patent nonsense. If you think that Christmas is actually anything to do with religion for many (most?) people in modern day Britain you're deluding yourself. The "true meaning of Christmas" might well involve a spot of worshipping for the devout, or their annual visit to church for those who like to think of themselves as Christian but don't really believe it; but really it's about having a break from work, buying presents for loved ones, spending time with family and laughing at Auntie Ethel who's got mullered on cooking sherry and tried to go to the toilet in a cupboard.

Hands up who celebrated November 5th this year, and gave even a passing thought to the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot. Hell, I'd quite like to blow it up myself these days. In actuality it's just an excuse to have a bit of a party and keep the local Burns Unit busy.

Where do we stand on Halloween?

If religion in schools bothered him that much he should have complained beforehand about them putting on a Christian [u]play[/u], or withdrawn his daughter.

It's almost as if the entire thread has passed you by. Once again, the issue is that school appears to not be following its own guidelines. Oh, and I've highlighted the important bit.

Where do we stand on Halloween?

Behind the door with a really scary mask on.

It's the thin end of the wedge, if you accept this where does it stop, coffee mornings? Singing in a choir? Be vigilant peeps, very vigilant.

Really Ben should have objected to the play rather than the priest...

Have you opted out of this Ben for your child, as can't you send a letter to the school insisting you opt out of RME and RO? To save them from the horror of religious observance.

Your militant Agnostics would hold that Atheism is just as much a faith as any of the religions.

They really wouldn't. Quite the opposite in fact, that's sort of the point.

Militant Agnosticism - I don't know, and you don't either.
It's a semantic point which I find amusing.

Hands up who celebrated November 5th this year, and gave even a passing thought to the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot. Hell, I'd quite like to blow it up myself these days.

I thought it was about burning Catholics.

bencooper - Member
Where do we stand on Halloween?

Behind the door with a really scary mask on.

that made me lol. 😀

The godswallop is strong in this thread

Once again, the issue is that school appears to not be following its own guidelines.

I don't believe in most of that stuff apart from as a parable, but I wouldn't complain about it.

Then again I would like to see other religions being represented as well, which I suspect they aren't, which gives the (false) impression that everyone in this country is Christian. This would irk me.

I would be pretty uncomfortable with it too I think..
I've attended a few nativity plays and carol services to see my kids perform now, and it is IMHO completely unnecessary to have a deluded old man present, banging on about sky fairies..

I'm even reading them a book about the nativity in the evenings atm, also completely doable without bringing mental illness into it.. And before you all get offended by my turn of phrase, I was sectioned in my youth because of religious delusions and the majority of kids in the unit were suffering similar confusion..
I think it's hypocritical that I was labelled as mentally ill, whereas if I'd been receiving a salary and had sworn allegiance to the correct corporation my delusions would have commanded power and authority..

Dunno if I woulda written an email though.. I'm too apathetic

DISCLAIMER: I am (probably) NOT a prophet

Ben,

I haven't read all the thread. I don't think you are out of order at all. The problem exists on many levels:

1. The inclusion of worship in schools is written into the Education Scotland Act. You need to lobby your MSPs to point out the ridiculousness of that in a country bedevilled with sectarianism.

2. If the head teacher is even slightly religious then they seem to blindly assume that everyone else is too, or is passively disinterested.

3. The posts I skimmed in this thread show that there is a big section of the population who think you shouldn't attend a nativity play if you don't believe and you should prevent your children from doing so too. There appears to be no understanding that you could participate in a nativity play (especially a "modern" adaptation!) without saying you believe the story or expect the "school" to present it as "fact".

4. Many teachers have such a blinkered understanding of Christmas, perpetuated by being products of the same system they now deliver, that they believe giving of parcels (and possibly Santa, Trees, etc) all originated with Christianity and were not in fact traditions (possibly pagan traditions) as part of festivals to brighten up life in the cold dark winter.

5. Dissenting views from either teachers or parents within the system are laughed at as ridiculous - just as on this thread. This helps ensure that the silent majority sit in silence.

6. Discussion about the relevance often points to the questions in the census (which many people considered are flawed) where people identify as being "Christian" despite probably having not attended a church service since leaving school.

7. If you withdraw your children from the activities they will not be doing anything in any way educational or constructive (the exception here will be if your child attends a school with a very large proportion of pupils who actively follow other religions). Your children will be excluded. Your children will be the potential subject of bullying or ridicule. Your children will be marked out as being "different".

However, if you think it is bad that a minister of religion said this at a nativity play then you don't want to imagine what is being taught in the classroom when nobody is there to question it!

Amazingly, saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make you right.

From the religious observance policy:

"An approach seeking to convert an audience to one faith or another is not appropriate in the non-denominational sector"

You'll have to explain how a minister leading the children in prayer does not constitute "seeking to convert".

Never heard of faith schools?

However, the OP is under the impression that his child's school is NOT a faith school, so you and I digress.

I've just sent a strongly worded email to Halfords after my 6 year old went into my garage and inadvertently read the labels on my bike.

He now wants me to sacrifice a chicken to this guy....

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2Yns50qZ-K01MKzC33PIuVTH5WogFlYfKvK27qxuYkb3skQU8uQ [/img]

Religious indoctrination is everywhere... be careful out there kids.