Dunno if I woulda written an email though.. I'm too apathetic
The actual writing of the email is down to the Memsahib, but I put my name to it. I'm too busy working and arguing on here to write the email myself.
While working, I'm also celebrating the story of one man who died to save us all - I forgot how good Independence Day is 😀
In my last primary nativity I played santa, explaining the story of the nativity to some aliens.
We didn't have the vicar stand up and say that all of that was true.
I don't really know what the solution to religious education in primary schools is - it's like science in that you have to tell a few fibs to explain the easy concepts and let them worry about the more complex truth when their a little older.
Top marks if you get the kids shouting "Liar!" at the vicar every time they see him. Even if it is pretty possible some kid was once born in a stable.
Militant Agnosticism - I don't know, and you don't either.
That's quite brilliant.
The entire issue could have been avoided by not inviting the minister, which seems a strange choice for a secular school to have made.
I'm a governor of a C of E school, and whilst I don't have any religious affiliation I accept that part of this is an involvement of the local parish (my own children don't buy it either despite having been there for years). There is funding and being nicely 'middle England' there is still a reasonable number of actively Christian pupils and staff - so I expect there to be some degree of what could be called indoctrination, in the nicer sense of the word.
Whilst I'd be delighted to have any faith leader come to the school to speak on the significance of their feast days and explain the teachings of their faith, I think leading a prayer might be a step too far. I'd expect a complaint from a parent if that happened.
I doubt I'd have complained, but I might not have allowed my children to take part next year without assurances of no repetition.
However, if you think it is bad that a minister of religion said this at a nativity play then you don't want to imagine what is being taught in the classroom when nobody is there to question it!
I remember some Christians coming in to our school to tell us that abortion is murder. This was in a non-denominational state secondary...
one of the absolute joys of being an atheist or freethinker is being able to chill, observe, and sometimes laugh in wide eyed wonder at the indoctrinated. And that's all you needed to have done.
I just shrug and get on with my life, some choose to live by this shit, others dont, just the way it is and always will be.
We had this with our boys, we just discussed it and always always encouraged an objective viewpoint, not being biased either way on anything and fostered individual choice. They have happily grown into well balanced thinkers able to accept everyone has their own take on this life.
It's a bit unfair to blame the school, if you object to it that strongly you could have withdrawn participation in the nativity play.
We withdrew our son once from an overtly religious gathering organised by the school (harvest festival at local church), but he participated in educational trips to Mosques, and Churches. He was also in a nativity play.
Save up all your energy for worrying about your kids in a few years time, Ben, when they start giving you real cause for worry.
Junior went through secular school so he's never been to a nativity and is atheist/agnostic. However today he's attending the Christian funeral of a kid he skied with. The young man died of exposure after doing a runner barefoot from home in a state somewhat altered by substance abuse.
Perspective, eh.
[i]And that's patent nonsense. If you think that Christmas is actually anything to do with religion for many (most?) people in modern day Britain you're deluding yourself.[/i]
It's nothing to do with religion for people that aren't bothered, but if you're a bit, you know, radical in you're anti god/anti religion stance then I would have thought you would be bothered.
which seems a strange choice for a secular school to have made.
One more time for the hard of understanding
NOT a secular school. Religion is not excluded from the curriculum.
Non-denominational school - pupils of all religions are welcomed and encouraged to follow their own individual faiths.
Not the same thing.
Non-denominational school - pupils of all religions are welcomed and encouraged to follow their own individual faiths.
Which means treating all faiths (and none) equally. That's not what happened here.
Which means treating all faiths (and none) equally. That's not what happened here.
So you would withdraw you complaint if they invite a Rabbi at passover to talk and a Imam after Ramadan? Not sure who comes to talk after the celebration of the teapot happens....
Which means treating all faiths (and none) equally. That's not what happened here.
Absolutely agree. As a dyed in the wool C of S Christian, I agree that the minister in your case was a bit naughty. He was encouraging all the wee proddy weans in their faith and got a wee bit carried away.
You've absolutely got a point.
You've just went off on one a bit about. Chill out.
It's Christmas after all.
So you would withdraw you complaint if they invite a Rabbi at passover to talk and a Imam after Ramadan? Not sure who comes to talk after the celebration of the teapot happens....
There is a much simpler solution.
Wow! 5 pages in 1 hour... it's like christmas has come early (small c).
Spent all my education at Catholic schools, now don't follow any religion. Don't worry about it too much. But I do get your point.
I was quite heartened recently when I heard my 11 yo repeat my oft said qualifier; after saying "Oh my God!" -she followed up with "other fairytales are available"
Bet they don't though, eh? (Let them present their version of the fairytale as FACT to the children, that is).So you would withdraw you complaint if they invite a Rabbi at passover to talk and a Imam after Ramadan?
Bet they don't though, eh? (Let them present their version of the fairytale as FACT to the children, that is).
Except they do though.
My kids have had talks from rabbi's, imams etc presenting their version of what they believe the "facts" are to them.
Explaining this to my kids has been easy
I think the head teacher organises it wind up the the headteacher of the RC school that shares the same building in a mixed campus school.
Explaining to my kids why they wear different uniforms and can't mix in the same building and in the same playground with the kids who were their friends at nursery because their version of Jesus is the same but different. That was hard.
Well, for balance, mine haven't. The Christian point of view is far more heavily weighted. The only nod to other faiths being from a wall display in the entrance hall of the school with equal space being given to all the major religions (which is good, although I'd like a spot for atheism/agnosticism too, for true balance).My kids have had talks from rabbi's, imams etc presenting their version of what they believe the "facts" are to them.
On a seperate but related note; why is there never an atheist on 'thought for the day'? Is it that spiritualists have the monopoly on moralising and 'makes you think' moments?
Gary_M - Member
I don't believe in god so you can't have a present? Good one.If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that's the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. 'Sorry we don't believe in religion junior so you're not getting a present today.'
Best not educate then in the reasons it's on the 25th then. The Roman Pagan festival of Saturnalia, gifts and food were forced upon one person (nominated the Lord of Misrule) in each community who was seen as the enemy of the Roman empire in the days running upto the 25th. On the 25th they sacrificed them believing that it killed the evil spirits with them.
Might not want presents then :-p
On a seperate but related note; why is there never an atheist on 'thought for the day'? Is it that spiritualists have the monopoly on moralising and 'makes you think' moments?
Because "shit happens" isn't very uplifting.
But everyone know Christmas is about the baby jesus, that's what kids are taught in school.
Isn't that the very point your arguing against? That it should be taught? Rather than "Christmas is a good excuse to be nice to people and give presents, do some charity work, etc, and some people believe it's also XYZ".But everyone know Christmas is about the baby jesus, that's what kids are taught in school.
TBH if you go back far enough I suspect you get back to the Neanderthal "it's the middle of winter, Uggg and Grrahh in the next cave have run out of food, lets share some" festival.
In the grand scheme of things, the baby Jesus is pretty modern.
why is there never an atheist on 'thought for the day'?
They tryed it once, giving the spot to one r Dawkins, who proceded to rant for the full 2 minutes.
Is presenting the nativity story as truth any different to teaching the story of creation as such?
On a seperate but related note; why is there never an atheist on 'thought for the day'? Is it that spiritualists have the monopoly on moralising and 'makes you think' moments?
From the BBC "Thought for the Day is a slot for reflections on topical matters from the perspective of a religious faith".
So that one's explained.
Which means treating all faiths (and none) equally. That's not what happened here.
You will likely find that most faiths don't mind other faiths being and doing what other faiths are and do.
It seems to be primarily the radical [note: NOT all] atheists that get most bothered by any of this stuff.
Like whoever it was that said on the forum the other day how proud they were of themselves for having refused to sing Christmas carols when they were in primary school.
I mean really? If you're an atheist, I think it shouldn't matter all that much.
Even the illustrious Richard Dawkins said about that commercial using the Lord's Prayer that got banned from cinemas this year that banning it was utterly ridiculous. I believe his exact words were: 'If someone is going to get offended by a prayer, then they deserve to be offended.'
Get over yourself.
^^^This.
SaxonRider has nailed it.
Edit:
As above, +1 for Saxonrider.
Well said. Like me, my son goes to a CofE school, becuase although we are not practising Christians thats its one of the best in our area. And the school openly advertises it affiliation with the local Christian church. So anyone who went there moaning about the Christmas play would be quite hypocritical.
The OP sent his child to a non-denominational school, so I'm not sure what the relevance of your point is.
It seems to be primarily the radical [note: NOT all] atheists that get most bothered by any of this stuff.
What is a radical atheist?
Possibly the most ridiculous assertion I've read for a VERY long time. History would STRONGLY disagree with you.You will likely find that most faiths don't mind other faiths being and doing what other faiths are and do.
All this talk of 'radical' atheists make me lol too. Seriously; there would be literally NO point in being a 'radical' atheist if there weren't far more completely BATSHIT MENTAL radical religious types. The 'radical atheist' thing is a direct result of overbearing religion just presuming that it has a right to institutionally impose itself on people. Which sadly, it still actually does in this country.
The nativity is very much the bibles own "Phantom Menace" anyway
The nativity is very much the bibles own "Phantom Menace" anyway
Meeesa bringin' Frankincense Oakily Doakily!
What is a radical atheist?
Don't be so semantic. You know that I am referring to those atheists who have made the conscious decision in the last decade or so to speak out more, not so much as atheists, but as anti-theists.
Dawkins, (the late) Hitchens, Dennett, et al., are all prominent representatives of this sort of atheism. Call it 'new', or 'radical', or whatever, the term denotes a social phenomenon that is widely recognised for its belligerence.
Think Derren Brown compared to Stephen Fry.
But I know you knew that.
I believe his exact words were: 'If someone is going to get offended by a prayer, then they deserve to be offended.'
Whilst I agree wholeheartidly with your sentiments, you've been on this site long enought to know that certain posters take offence at every possible opportunity...
i think saturnalia ended on the 23rd dec the xmas celebration the western Christians nicked was sol invictus/Mithraius they also nicked Sunday from him and arguably a lot of his temples hence Christian churches tending to have crypts . I do love the argument atheists should not take next Friday off as there is much more evidence to suggest atheists and pagans get 19th dec to 1st jan off and should have booze and presents Christians should only get 6th? jan off only and should spend it fasting and preying on their knees.
And Easter eggs have naff all to do with Jesus.
Possibly the most ridiculous assertion I've read for a VERY long time. History would STRONGLY disagree with you.
I am not talking about history. I am talking about modern Britain, FFS.
Forget the tiny minority of radical Muslims or fundamentalist Christians, or whomever. I am talking about the normal parents from Iraq or ****stan who have chosen to send Ishaq or Ahmed or Sairah to the local C of E school or Catholic school because they want 'faith values' (however you define that).
Such people are not offended by Away in a Manger.
Don't be so semantic. You know that I am referring to those atheists who have made the conscious decision in the last decade or so to speak out more, not so much as atheists, but as an anti-theists.
Ah, so when you say "radical atheists" you mean something else. Thanks for the clarification.
Anyway, to recap: the OP is a bit peeved that a non-denominational school invited a minister to preach, apparently in contravention of its own guidelines. If you think that's radical, then I can only point out that such an assessment is relative to the point of the observer.
Such people are not offended by Away in a Manger.
Who is?
you've been on this site long enought to know that certain posters take offence at every possible opportunity..
But it is important that it is expressed so we can celebrate in their **** wittery.
I'm Interested to know whether atheists "indoctrinate" their children in atheism, or allow them to experience religion for themselves and make their own minds up - i.e. based on informed decision.
I'm Interested to know whether atheists "indoctrinate" their children in atheism, or allow them to experience religion for themselves and make their own minds up - i.e. based on informed decision.
Indoctrination into an absence of faith? An informed decision on whether to have faith or not?
WTF?
Ah, that's alright then. Because history can teach us nothing, but YOU are the final authority on the opinions of all the 'parents from Iraq or ****stan'.I am not talking about history. I am talking about modern Britain, FFS.
Glad we cleared that one up 🙄
I'm Interested to know whether atheists "indoctrinate" their children in atheism, or allow them to experience religion for themselves and make their own minds up - i.e. based on informed decision.
I'm happy to give you an insight;
My children know that there are lots of different stories from all around the world, and that some people really believe them. They understand that they can listen to all the stories, and if they feel convinced by any of them, then they are free to believe them. That's about as far as we've got at the moment, but my eldest is five. I expect this isn't the last I've heard of it.
vickypea, we are atheist and hypocritical-vegetarian we tell our son some people think x some people think y, so cranbrat currently is part Buddhist in so far as he wants to be reincarnated not return to stardust or live on a cloud , and currently part meateater in so far as he points at it in the supermarket and says he wants to try it and gets to try it at parties he tends not to like it.
We send him to a C of E school , we were clear about our beliefs on the application.
And Easter eggs have naff all to do with Jesus.
Religious education in school says different, I'm pretty sure they don't teach kids about fertility and rebirth.
[url= http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/12/16/pure-and-utter-shite-wwn-reviews-local-school-nativity-play/ ]school nativity review.[/url]