I would like it to be treated exactly the same as Hanukkah, Diwali, Ramadan etc. It wasn't.
Why, does anyone force you to attend celebrations of any of those events?
It is if you're atheist. What's the difference?
As I said, it's a celebration of a religious festival.
Even if you don't believe any of it, you should treat others people cultures with some respect.
You are coming across as a "Daily Mail reading atheist botherer."
You are no different than the protests to schools celebrating Eid al-Fitr.
If fact you are making yourself look quite foolish.
heaven help us
Even if you don't believe any of it, you should treat others people cultures with some respect.
We sat quietly while the minister said his piece. What was unrespectful about that?
As I said, it's a celebration of a religious festival.
It's a wee play where all the kids get to dress up, wave at their parents, and sing some songs. It was lovely. Just like every other school play I've seen.
You are no different than the protests to schools celebrating Eid al-Fitr.
My daughter's school celebrated Eid, as well as the nativity. In neither case was a preacher invited to try and convert her.
This is a Scottish state school which is non-denominational - to quote myself:
I'm sure it is, all I'm saying is I was heavily surrounded by religion through my schooling but I came out the other side believing it was all mumbo-jumbo.
i.e - Don't spend time worrying about it as a clear thinking person will come to their own conclusions regardless.
Its hardly disrespectful to send a quiet email to the school. Standing up in the middle of it and telling the vicar to **** off would be though.
Sounds like a balanced reaction* to be fair. I cant stand prayers though I'll tolerate all the pageantry for the sake of a bit of social cohesion.
*depending on the actual content of the email of course.
My daughter's school celebrated Eid, as well as the nativity. In neither case was a preacher invited to try and convert her.
Spot on. To emphasise again, I have no problem with the school doing the nativity. It was fun. They do the same for other festivals. My objection was to inviting the minister along to lead an act of worship, which is not done with other religious festivals and is against guidelines.
I spent most of my early schooling being made to feel different and somehow bad because I wouldn't close my eyes and bow my head when the visiting minister told me to - I'm not having that for my daughter too.
If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?
Personally, I'm very pro children being taught about religion, so as they get older *they* can decide what they wish to believe in, rather than blindly following the herd. Knowledge in my mind is always better than blissful ignorance.
Unfortunately some atheists in this are as bad as the god squad when it comes to religious education and fit the stereotype that a closed mind, rarely comes with a closed mouth and berate anyone who disagrees with their beliefs or lack of.
[i]Its not a C of E, Catholic or Faith School. What other options do I have?
Oh and I have no issue with my son learning about religion, I do however think he should be allowed to make his own decisions, and school not tell him that God is true and the only one. [/i]
But I presume you buy presents and celebrate Christmas, I know a lot of people think Santa invented Christmas but the clue is in the title of the festival. What about easter - you don't buy eggs for the kids do you?
People do tend to be very hypocritical about stuff like this and only choose to be outraged about certain things then take part in the bits they like.
depending on the actual content of the email of course.
The content of the email was to say that it was a lovely show and the teachers and kids obviously worked really hard, but allowing the minister to give a sermon at the end was jarring and against guidelines.
If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?
He did. Try reading the thread.
If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?
It is. It is a non-denominational Scottish state school. Do I need to quote the guidelines again?
Peeve away mate, the fact that none of the objections here address your actual point show something IMO.
oh for the love of god
Unfortunately some atheists in this are as bad as the god squad insofar education and fit the stereotype that a closed mind, rarely comes with a closed mouth and berate anyone who disagrees with their beliefs or lack of.
Your militant Agnostics would hold that Atheism is just as much a faith as any of the religions.
Ben - Where are the guidelines because I would be intrigued to read them.
At our son's school they had a preacher come over from Africa to chat to them about 'Africa'
It was really interesting him talking about the animals, the music, the way of life, but when he started saying how God will not be happy if they misbehave, and God is watching over them all the time, IMO that was OTT
Do I need to quote the guidelines again?
No. Please don't.
But I presume you buy presents and celebrate Christmas
I celebrated Diwali once, as I happened to be in India at the time. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make me a Hindu.
We sat quietly while the minister said his piece. What was unrespectful about that?
Except the head teacher now has to respond to your email, speak to the minister to let him know there was a complaint, organise all the next years events to be different, let the council know another complaint came it...
You have shown lack of respect to the head and teachers, the minister and the school community by over reacting and making things formal.
I'm sure that when they have their Eid Mubarrak or Diwali celebrations they have an equivalent preacher?
No, they don't - don't usually have anyone, teachers handle it, which is fine
You've got a point. I'm not sure I'd have the equivalent reaction, but you have a point.
You have shown lack of respect to the head and teachers, the minister and the school community by over reacting and making things formal.
Err, no. He thinks that the school has failed to comply with its own published guidelines, and has written to them as a result.
Ben - Where are the guidelines because I would be intrigued to read them.
https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=12233&p=0
OK, I missed that part, apologies; I'm kind surprised that secular school would even mark a religious festival as couldn't any celebration be seen as trying to convert people?
Your militant Agnostics would hold that Atheism is just as much a faith as any of the religions.
For sake of balance, I might on a bad day be guilty of that.
I was educated by a C of E school, attended all the 'important' church services and took part in traditional 'preachy' Nativity plays.
However. as an adult I have absolutely zero religious beliefs whatsoever.
+1
Although I remember getting really quite upset by it all as a Teenager trying to figure it all out, I even made some attempt to read the Bible cover to cover.
My kids won't be christened and won't be going to a CoE school unless there's no other option (I think it's rubbish that schools are religious at all TBH, but hat seems to be the future with academy being religious too). In fact I;d go as far as trying to get them into some other faith school. At least then there'd be some chance of it being a "these people believe this, those people believe that" type conversation.
You have shown lack of respect to the head and teachers, the minister and the school community
And God. Don't forget God.
A very polite email reminding the school of their guidelines is not disrespectful. It's quite possible that the head teacher was as surprised as we were by the sermon at the end, and would welcome feedback.
Muslim and Hindu kids
There is no such thing as Muslim, Hindu or even Christian kids - they're just kids whose parents are Muslim, Hindu or Christian and are currently been indoctrinated/brain washed into those faiths.
All children are born atheists (a lack of belief in any gods) until the brain washing takes hold.
But I presume you buy presents and celebrate Christmas, I know a lot of people think Santa invented Christmas but the clue is in the title of the festival. What about easter - you don't buy eggs for the kids do you?People do tend to be very hypocritical about stuff like this and only choose to be outraged about certain things then take part in the bits they like.
Gary - Come on now. I am happy that he goes to school and learns about Christianity, I think it is good that he understands what Easter and Christmas are about (without destroying the magical mystery around Santa, which yes I know is a belief in itself) but I am not happy that a 5yr old now believes in God because a school has groomed him.
[i]I celebrated Diwali once, as I happened to be in India at the time. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make me a Hindu.[/i]
Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.
[i]I am not happy that a 5yr old now believes in God because a school has groomed him[/i]
As a parent you've already let him believe Christ existed so it wouldn't take much for him to believe in god.
OK, I missed that part, apologies; I'm kind surprised that secular school would even mark a religious festival as couldn't any celebration be seen as trying to convert people?
...only in the fevered imagination of the Daily Mail. Teaching children about religious and cultural festivals is part of their education, trying to convert them isn't.
I should imagine that the Muslims and Hindus were quite comfortable with the concept of prayer, the former do rather a lot of it.
I think they can do a nativity play, then leave it to individual parents to say its real or it is just a nice story etc to their own kids. I think it is pretty disrespectful of the school and vicar to say it is all true without considering the watching families views on reality.
Yes massive overreaction, good attempt at pc points though. Presumably you aren't celebrating xmas at all in your house then?
Fwiw I spent seven years at primary school reciting the Lords prayer and doing nativity plays and I've grown up a happy atheist and have never believed in God. I can still remember lots of the prayer though it has merged with akela we'll do our best in my head.
There is no such thing as Muslim, Hindu or even Christian kids - they're just kids whose parents are Muslim, Hindu or Christian and are currently been indoctrinated/brain washed into those faiths.
I wasn't going to even go down that argument 😉
Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.
Bringing kids up celebrating the pagan festivals of Yule and Ostara while pretending they're all about Jesus is equally hypocritical if you want to go down that line.
Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.
I don't believe in god so you can't have a present? Good one.
I genuinely don't know what you were expecting. It's not just a story. It's the cornerstone of one of the largest religions in the world. A religion that millions believe in. Including some at the school no doubt. so if you're not bothered by the stories influence then why are you bothered about some bloke standing up and talking about it too.
If your kids can make their own mind up then what's the fuss. If they're allowed to decide for themselves then they need to hear it. Just the same as they should hear your point of view. I know which one I think they'd give the most weight.
If you celebrate Christmas you're a hypocrite. Right. Nice one.
Most of these 'christian' festivals just replace earlier pagan (NB pagan in this context is used both literally and as shortform to mean "earlier than protestant/RC" - i learn my lessons me!) ones anyway. Chances are you christians are actually celebrating a pagan (see note above) festival.
So who's the hypocrite again?
Edit - OK, ransos and bencooper beat me to it. Must type faster!
There's a lot of people not actually reading/understanding what the OP's objection was and jumping to conclusions.
In case you need someone else to highlight it.
His objection is NOT to the nativity play
His objection is NOT to it having (necessary) Christian content
His objection is NOT to celebrating a story/holiday/religious festival
His objection IS to a minster leading an act of worship in a secular School.
It's not about being anti-theist, it's about NOT being theist in a secular environment*.
I'f you're going to judge at least judge on his actual complaint.
*by all means allow the minster to [i]invite people who are inclined[/i] to follow him back to his church for a service afterwards to learn more about the Christian interpretation of the story, but that's an entirely different thing, and even then I would hope other faiths were given this opportunity at other celebrations.
I genuinely don't know what you were expecting.
This has been covered in some detail.
I genuinely don't know what you were expecting.
I was expecting a lovely nativity play with cute little kids singing badly. That's what we got, and it was great.
It's the cornerstone of one of the largest religions in the world. A religion that millions believe in. Including some at the school no doubt.
So exactly like Buddhism, Islam, Judaism etc. Which it should have been treated the same as.
I genuinely don't know what you were expecting. It's not just a story. It's the cornerstone of one of the largest religions in the world. A religion that millions believe in. Including some at the school no doubt. so if you're not bothered by the stories influence then why are you bothered about some bloke standing up and talking about it too.
Equally true if a muslim preacher tried to convert the kids during a celebration of Eid.
[i]I don't believe in god so you can't have a present? Good one. [/i]
If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that's the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. 'Sorry we don't believe in religion junior so you're not getting a present today.'
.His objection IS to a minster leading an act of worship in a secular School.
This.
what were the pop songs?
...only in the fevered imagination of the Daily Mail. Teaching children about religious and cultural festivals is part of their education, trying to convert them isn't.
Seem appropriate as this thread is very 'Daily Mail' knee jerk.
Ben does seem to be correct however looking at the guidelines, so if something could be construed to be an attempt at 'conversion', then it should be stopped and I guess it would reduce the workloads on the teachers 🙂
To be fair however they should ban all plays, just incase it offends someone.