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I'd say that the army might also be a good way to homogenise and crush independent thought...
On the flip side of the 'respect' argument, you get countless suicides, self-harm (we had two blokes in our regiment shoot each other in the knee to get out of national service, plenty of broken limbs 'I fell down the stairs'), the alcohol abuse, kids sent to the brig for the crime of being lovesick etc. etc.
Spend the money on getting kids educated and in jobs. No need to institutionalise them.
Not that I'm for it though, I think it's career you really need to be in by choice.
You don't get told what to do by Toffs that's a myth, you'll hardly meet any. You get told what to do by lower ranks.
Oldgit - you can learn most of those trades at college you don't need to dress up in some bullshit uniform and pledge allegiance to the the head of the UK branch of the Germanic family known as Saxe Coburg Gotha.
not trying to be awkward of nuffink but i think its possible to learn respect, discipline and "that the world isn't all about you, and everything you do in life has consequences - good or bad." without joining the army. in fact... i learnt all that without ever having held a weapon or been in a fight 🙂
if kids need the army to teach them those things mentioned above then maybe the parents didnt do their job properly?
EDIT - i lied.. i have held weapons, but only cos i've confiscated them from patients, never held one with the intent of training to use, or planning to use in defence or anger.
I actually quite fancy the idea of killing someone... how old is too old to get into the army?
To be born here, A Privilege ? Maybe. A huge piece of good fortune we should be thankful for? Definately.
On the flip side of the 'respect' argument, you get countless suicides, self-harm (we had two blokes in our regiment shoot each other in the knee to get out of national service, plenty of broken limbs 'I fell down the stairs'), the alcohol abuse, kids sent to the brig for the crime of being lovesick etc. etc
This can't be denied. I do however find it very strange these people ever enter. You'll actually get people ready to join, then don't when they find out they'll need a haircut and will have to remove their facial peircings. Others will literally crack up spending a night out in the woods without their gadgets and hair products.
The independent thought thing is also a myth, or is now. Yes you follow orders, but sometimes it takes the thoughts and actions of one man to save the lives of many. It's one of the very first things you're taught to use.
Edit; You will often feel totally **** and possibly the the most useless person on the planet when starting your basic training. Even being prepared for it doesn't help much. But it has always been said that this is part of the training, being tested (it can feel like abuse)when you could just leave. Self control is easy for some. others will flyu off the handle if just yelled at, best this is found out before you get a weapon.
I'm talking about national service. You have no choice. Join or go to jail.
Rather than military service, what is the view of an overseas aid corps? 6 months in africa building water purification and sewage plants might give the disaffected yute a new perspective on living in the UK. Ironically, this sort of work is only carried right now out by private schoolkids who's parents can afford 5k for a gap year...
Many countries that have national service offer a civil service alternative to the military
TJ being born in northern europe or even lage areas of the USA immediately puts you in the world top rankings of opportunity. Once you are British you have rights, however we are VERY priviliged to have those rights.
Ratswithwings: of course there is inequality here. Having the right parents or even a good school can and will make a massives difference to your life chances, but those chances are there for everyone to a fair degree and it is perfectly possible to go prom council estate to high school teacher for any kid who applies themselves. Trouble is kids need direction and if they dont get it from the parents then there are limits to what a school can do.
To be fair, most of the kids in Tottenham probably have more consumer goods than most of us now, so I'm not sure we can still class them as underprivileged now 😀
philconsequence, it may be possible to learn respect etc, but in our present climate of gang culture it is increasingly unlikely. I left school twenty years ago, during my time there no teacher was ever beaten up, but by all accounts now it is a common occurrence. Let them try to get away with that in the army! I'm not saying national service is the way forward, but there is no respect or sense of accountablility.
I left school twenty years ago, during my time there no teacher was ever beaten up, but by all accounts now it is a common occurrence
Only if you read the Daily mail
but in our present climate of gang culture
Which is actually limited to very small pockets of society.
bagstard - do you realise most crime is much lower now than it was then?
Maybe I am daily wailing a bit, but I see changes with my own eyes. My gym has recently slashed it's prices in half, it was already cheap. The younger guys coming in now (most of them anyway)just don't have any manners, constantly flout most of the rules and are a general pain in the neck. The idea of training hard and eating well to get a good physique doesn't interest most of them, it is steroids from day one.
The younger guys coming in now (most of them anyway)just don't have any manners, constantly flout most of the rules and are a general pain in the neck.
Haha, thats called getting older, FFS thats been happening since time in memoriam.
I must have been old from a young age then, i'm always polite. 🙂
i gets what you means bagstad 🙂 and kudos for admitting an element of daily wailing 😆
I think being the completely non-fighty person i am and was raised to be, i'm reluctant to entertain the thought that forcing kids into a military type system will be a positive. I can see how it would work for some kids, but considering that a lot of parents are very quick to blame schools, teachers, government and so on for the failings of their children, knowing that their kids are meant to be learning how to be a well rounded, respectful and constructive citizen from the army is just another way of allowing parents to shun their responsibilities.
There have always been rough kids, always will be, but they seem to be fearless these days. Not afraid of teachers, not afraid of the law. Unfortunately I don't know what the solution is.
National service was only in force for 13 years. It's an aberration in the history of Britain and only a very small perecentage of the current population went through it.
I'm also fed up of these Captain Mainwairing types and people holding up the armed forces to be some exemplary system full of outstanding people. They're just ordinary people doing a job like anyone else.
Agree with you Bagstard, there have always been rough kids and gangs, Teddy boys, mods and rockers, skinheads etc...there are no solutions, its just the way things are....
True, but I do think it is getting worse. Pretty sure the Krays would not have lasted long in todays London.
There have always been rough kids, always will be, but they seem to be fearless these days. Not afraid of teachers, not afraid of the law. Unfortunately I don't know what the solution is.
mods and rockers fought running battles on the beeches in the 60's, coffee shop gangs fought in the streets in the 50's(bike chains were a favourite weapon). Youth gangs terrorised the streets of Manchester at the turn of the 19th/20th century. Your harking back to a false utopia that has never existed in anything but fiction and the minds of politicians trying to deceive you.
When you got together with your mates as a teenager, you probably didn't realise how noisy you were, that a group of teenagers can be worrying to others. Unfortunately it is your lack of realisation that things are in reality much the same as they always were that is now widening the divide between adults and youths.
Organised crime is a bit different to a gang of teenagers giving it large..
Wouldn't National Service teach them self respect, discipline, respect for others...etc.?
Yes.
All those good things that their PARENTS are supposed to be teaching them.
Many of the problems with the current genereation are the fault of the previous.
On the other hand, some people are just idiots.
Most of the rioters are too stupid not to pi$$ on their own doorstep.
Morons.
Problem: "Disenfranchised Youth"
Response: Burn stuff & nick things
Result: "Disenfranchised Youth" (still), but now the whole country knows your a d1ck.
Congratulations. Really well done.
Actually I think the problem of the disenfranchised youth will be addressed more after this week that it was being before.
Apparently they burnt down cash converter in Salford last night, bit of an own goal... 😀
not readt the thread but my personal view is there is some merit in removing folk from their environment an dpeer sin order to show them the big picture
I would often take teenagers to the lakes [ only 50 miles away[ who had never seen countryside or been for a walk, abseiled etc. They was a great change in many as a result of this and activities.
Having worked with young people many poor people suffer from poverty of aspiration and can see nothing beyond their own little estate. To widen their horizons would do some good IMHO
I dont think the army is the way to do this.
Social projects? repair dry stone walls, looking after old folk,litter picking, repairing schools? no real idea what tbh.
In principle I dont think it is that bad an idea but I would not be comfortable compelling folk to do this tbh.
Hang on, aren't ex servicemen diporportionately reprisented in prisons and the homeless?
aren't ex servicemen diporportionately reprisented in prisons and the homeless
If that's true... what better way to resolve the statistical anomaly than National Service?