[Closed] Richest 'British' sportsperson...

Yawn.

See also Jensen Button.

The system is corrupt, I'm more p*ssed of with the big corporations that pay no tax yet continue to trade and make millions here.

I'd get after those first.

The one area where we should be more like America. If you want the passport you pay UK taxes wherever you choose to live in the world.

My moral compass...

I don't trust my moral compass. And I've seen plenty of compasses go awry when large quantities of money are involved. See eg house buying, car selling/buying for what arseholes people become when greed is waving a magnet near the needle. So yeah, morally, he's on dodgy ground, but I try not to point the finger at individuals - corporations are easier targets as they cannot simply up sticks and move as easily as an individual.

If I had Lewis' fortune and yoghurt-hungry Missus, I think I'd probably live in Monte Carlo too. 😳

So what? As long as next time he needs hospital treatment he doesn't get on his G5 and high tails it over to the UK to use the NHS, why should he pay into it? He's not benefitting from any of the services of the UK so why should he pay into them?

Anyway, what about the tax benefit and income from the army of people that are part of his enterage? His UK based employees. His management team, mechanics, manufacturers of large gold necklace's, the UK based F1 Mercedes team and mirriad of UK based suppliers and manufacturers that are thriving due to his success? I'm sure the UK is benefitting very nicely from 'Lewis Hamilton Incorporated'. As the currently in vogue political saying goes: You're playing the man, not the ball - or something like that.

This is the problem with this left wing brand of spiteful, jealous politics. It focusses on screwing the individual, bringing them down, rather than what is really important - maximising the total tax take. Success breeds success and many people and companies surrounding successful individuals benefit from their success, as does the UK tax take. And now you're talking about taxing his nationality? taking his passport off him if he doesn't pay into our system? You talk about a moral compass, but I think yours has a dirty great big magnet stuck on the side of it.

I'd guess he paid a fair amount of tax before he moved abroad. And anyway, it's easy saying 'I wouldn't do that' but unless you're in the same position you don't really know.

Hmmm. I actually lean centre right politically Wobbliscot. My point is simply that he is living in tax exile so is avoiding tax deliberately, if you think that's fine then walk on.

As for the Team Hamilton rant, that's just sh!te. Amazon, Starbucks, et alhave loads of folk working for them paying income tax so does that make it acceptable to avoid their tax as a company, eh, no!

Who mentioned his passport anyway?

Meh he lives in Monaco which could be thought of as the home of his "sport".

...left wing brand of spiteful, jealous politics.

It's only the morning but we probably have Laziest Phrase Of The Day already.

FWIW I agree with the OP. He's not British in my eyes. If he wasnt an F1 driver some other person would drive for Mclaren and generate as much tax for the country as Mclaren is British team so your view seems flawed Wobbly.

Anybody on here ever [s]avoided[/s] evaded paying import duty? That appears to be an acceptable form of tax [s]avoidance[/s] evasion around here.

guess he paid a fair amount of tax before he moved abroad. And anyway, it's easy saying 'I wouldn't do that' but unless you're in the same position you don't really know.

This is tru. But I reckon when I got to a level that he's on I would just think. **** it it makes no difference and pay my tax. Even if I did live by a nice beach in the med!

a_a has the first fail for clearly not actually knowing much about the subject being discussed 😆

Why should the country that he lives in determine his nationality?
I don't consider myself British, and I doubt that many others would think so, but I've lived half my life here.
If he lived in Ireland, or Spain, would you be writing this?

Or is the real issue that the country he lives in happens to have a low tax regime?

Who mentioned his passport anyway?

That would be me.

The country seems to bend over backwards to accommodate the richer inhabitants of the planet for not much tangible benefit to the collective good (not financal good because enslavement to the bottom line creates all sorts of behavioural anomalies which do not benefit the whole just the individual).

If that makes me jealous in some people eyes so be it. If a little more effort was put into ensuring everyone had a fair shake of the money tree though enlightened self-interest the country just might have fewer social and economic ills to cope with.

Also after amassing your first personal billion what possible purpose does more money on top of that serve? It becomes meaningless and just a number. There comes a point where being able to exhaust all that personal money on living costs or toys becomes impossible.

Looking at it another way - he's just one employee of a company that employs hundreds (if not thousands) of people in the UK who pay their personal and company taxes.

Can't say I have a huge problem with him living in Monoco, and no doubt a lot of his millions get spent in the UK by himself and indirectly by his family.

a_a has the first fail for clearly not actually knowing much about the subject being discussed

What have I missed then oh wise one?

Which team does he drive for?

Oh right. I was thinking the other day when I strayed onto the grand prix on the telly that I didnt know who half the teams were anymore. Ferrari are easy to spot! His team are still british based though isnt it?

I'd be living somewhere sunny and nice if I could afford it, & saving tax would be a bonus. I don't blame him

His team are still british based though isnt it?

Yes - only Ferrari, Sauber and Toro Rosso are based abroad.

Why does someone like him choose not to pay into the system he was brought up in when he can clearly afford it.

I would think that he is acting upon finacial advice from someone with knowledge and experience of the best way for Him to retain as much of his cash as possible, I doubt he pursued the career that he has done in order to maximise his contribution to the UK tax system.

Do you relly believe you would do things differently ? and if you did do you think it would be appreciated ?

Do you relly believe you would do things differently ? and if you did do you think it would be appreciated ?

The op is not talking about it being appreciated or not he's talking about morals. I dont think its morally right to avoid paying tax.

Got an ISA? a pension? childcare vouchers? a bike on bike to work scheme (which you don't ride to work)? buy duty free booze?

Plenty of people on here you're presumably also condemning.

Is an ISA tax avoidance? Odd definition if it is.

Of course it is. That's the whole point.

Sorry but I think that if we all had as much cash as Mr Hamilton then the majority of us would do the same thing. I would for sure. Plus Monaco is a pretty nice place to live if you have a lot of cash - casinos and restaurants, weather, beaches, mountains, F1 history + connections etc, etc.

There seems to be a tendancy to bash people who've done well for themselves in the UK at the moment. Unlike various celebrities who seem to be purely famous for being famous, Lewis has worked incredibly hard to get to where he is today. Fair play to him I say.

The op is not talking about it being appreciated or not he's talking about morals. I dont think its morally right to avoid paying tax.

I never mentioned morals !

However seeing as you mentioned it.
I personally do not think that it is morally responsible to race around a course in highly developed toy cars burning vast amounts of a finite resource in the pursuance of greed and vanity, so there ..... 😈

Of course it is. That's the whole point.

😀

Sorry, why is he not British again? So , in the same logic (?) is a higher rate tax payer more British than a basic rate payer?

Monaco itself is a pretty grim place IMO. Expensive tower blocks, congestion and you are not allowed to wear socks or a simple watch. And all those bloody helicopters!!

A whole lot of people have worked hard to make LH a success. He benefits from his teams efforts, their education and health, the system that has provided the infrastructure of support. He has been carried to the top on the shoulders of lots of people, but now he has decided not to pay into the system that has provided him with so much.

I personally do not think that it is morally responsible to race around a course in highly developed toy cars burning vast amounts of a finite resource in the pursuance of greed and vanity, so there .....

At least a lot of technical knowledge comes from F1. Which is of huge benefit to many other industries.

What scientific advancement has come from Golf, Tennis or Football!?

He has been carried to the top on the shoulders of lots of people, but now he has decided not to pay into the system that has provided him with so much.

I think missed the Government sponsoring him - I thought it was McLaren who bankrolled his advancement in motorsport.

After SPOTY there was this gem

He should never have won. He is a terrible role model to any Britain. What precedent does that set. Bad day in our history.

Says Joey Barton 😀

Is Monaco part of the EU?

Of course it is.

I dont think it is. Tax evasion is doing illegal stuff, tax avoidance is looking for gaps in the system and using gov produced tax free systems is organising your finance to minimise tax.

I personally do not think that it is morally responsible to race around a course in highly developed toy cars burning vast amounts of a finite resource in the pursuance of greed and vanity

[img] [/img]

😉

At least a lot of technical knowledge comes from F1. Which is of huge benefit to many other industries.

What scientific advancement has come from Golf, Tennis or Football!?

Totally predictable response ! almost bet myself a tenner it would appear though not as quick 😆

A lot of technical knowledge comes from war as well.

What scientific advancement has come from Golf, Tennis or Football!?

I havent a clue !

Tax avoidance is bending the rules of the tax system to gain a tax advantage that Parliament never intended," said a spokesman for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

Ah, so LH is organising his finances to minimise tax?

I think missed the Government sponsoring him - I thought it was McLaren who bankrolled his advancement in motorsport.

Does mclaren pay for the education of all it's employees, their healthcare from birth to death? Did it pay for the roads that take them from their homes to the factory, does mclaren personally finance the emergency services that protects them?

There are a mirriad of benefits and services that everyone in the UK benefits from, and it seems it isn't always clear to some how tangible many indirect benefits are.

Yep and I'm doing the same paying into an isa.

ads678 - Member

Is Monaco part of the EU?

The interweb from wiki says yes ...

[b]"Monaco is a part of the EU Customs territory through an agreement with France, and is administered as part of France. San Marino and Andorra are in a customs union with the bloc. Liechtenstein is a member of the EEA so is within the EU internal market and applies certain EU laws"[/b] (Wiki)

Oh ya ... if it ain't illegal then you have no say in this matter coz he has done nothing wrong.

Moral? Can you put a law to that?

Totally predictable response ! almost bet myself a tenner it would appear though not as quick

And yours was a totally predictable F1 is evil, and baby kittens will die if you watch it, post.

Does mclaren pay for the education of all it's employees, their healthcare from birth to death? Did it pay for the roads that take them from their homes to the factory, does mclaren personally finance the emergency services that protects them?

To the same extent that any company does for its employees, yes.

Corporation tax?

Just waching BBC sport and there is currently an article on about Paula Radcliffe and it's set in Monaco where she lives with her family which I thought was quite apt for the current discussion. Goes to show how much the elite can earn when they make it. Stark contrast to the ones that never quite manage it.

edit: obviously it could also be due to the income from a partner I guess.

I just saw that! ****ing Runners. Has run off to pay no tax!

If you have few bobs you will be at it too!

🙄

Bet you £500 I never do.

If you have few bobs you will be at it too!

I was wondering this the other day when thinking about licensing some technology.

At what point would yo jump ship? Or at what point would you be getting so much left after tax you wouldnt give a crap as you had plenty anyway?

To the same extent that any company does for its employees, yes

Well if corporations paid for everything there would be no need for any other taxes, but they don't.

If you have few bobs you will be at it too!

I would probably move to the Maritime alps in France, so I would actually end up paying more tax, but I put the quality of life ahead of avoiding taxes.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Bet you £500 I never do.

The question how much do you earn?

In tens of millions?

For those with that money that would equate to a lavish lifestyle that is throw away ...

😯

Oh and for athletes I can fully understand wanting to not live in the UK as far as training is concerned. Nice, warm, dry weather. Then there is some food as well which is often just nicer in better climates.

andyl - Member

Oh and for athletes I can fully understand wanting to not live in the UK as far as training is concerned. Nice, warm, dry weather. Then there is some food as well which is often just nicer in better climates.

Nahhhh ... you are now trying to be "creative" aren't you ... 😆

Parliament has never intended to tax people who live abroad, except in limited circumstances, so presumably it is not tax avoidance.

Indeed but Monaco?

The question how much do you earn?
In tens of millions?

No it wasnt, as usual what you actually write and what you think you write are not the same.

Before he moved to Monaco I expect Hamilton paid his tax same as everyone else, and probably more of it too than most people.

When should rich people be allowed to move somewhere else? Who decides when they've paid what they owe the country for bringing them up?

Personally I couldn't care less where he lives. If I became rich enough to move somewhere nicer than the Midlands I wouldn't feel obliged to stay to keep 'putting something back' into the country.

Parliament has never intended to tax people who live abroad, except in limited circumstances, so presumably it is not tax avoidance.

You could argue that govs havent intended to have everyone leave when they get rich though...
what he does isnt illegal, its just that many people consider it morally questionable, others dont. C'est la vie

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Indeed but Monaco?

The question how much do you earn?
In tens of millions?

No it wasnt, as usual what you actually write and what you think you write are not the same.

What I want to say is this you don't earn enough to be a tax exile as you cannot afford to.

But if you earn millions you will have that flexibility and you might take that chance.

Morally right or wrong? Most people are morally wrong anyway IMO ...

but I put the quality of life ahead of avoiding taxes.

^ this

Apart from the tax issue there is a load of other reasons why you would want to live somewhere like Monaco or most of these other 'tax havens'.

It would be very wrong if a government could claw back tax from people living elsewhere.

But how many claim they live elsewhere but spend most of their time in the UK? Or are their safeguards already in place against that?

Well if corporations paid for everything there would be no need for any other taxes, but they don't.

Well that's a relief, I wouldn't run a business if it was the other way round!

Moaning about sports people living in tax havens is missing the point surely. How about having a look at the system that allows people like Philip Green to get away with huge tax avoidance, have companies in his wife's name and make billions of pounds in the Uk, without putting much back in.

Don't hate the player, hate the game son.

Why do you think there are more billionaires in London than any other city? Because of the lovely weather?

But if you earn millions you will have that flexibility and you might take that chance.

I wouldnt. Same reason I choose not to earn more teaching in the private sector. I dont think its right.

Not right? Sorry so is working as a teacher in the private sector us (morally ) wrong?

In my opinion.

Shirley Lewis Hamilton et al pale a bit when compared to our great powerboating and balloonist hero, Sir Richard Branson? They have a bit of catching up to do.

Is it OK for the UK to take the taxes of the thousands of foreign doctors & nurses working in the NHS?

Shouldn't their respective nations have some 'payback' for training them? Especially the eastern european nations, that need the money more than us?

Don't hate the player, hate the game son.

It's OK to have a strong dislike for both, surely?

F1 drivers are terrible for tax avoidance, must be the combination of big money and a calendar that allows them to be based pretty much anywhere.

Footballers would probably be at it loads too if they didn't actually have to go to work in the UK a few times a week.

Footballers would probably be at it loads too if they didn't actually have to go to work in the UK a few times a week.

They are.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

But if you earn millions you will have that flexibility and you might take that chance.

I wouldnt. Same reason I choose not to earn more teaching in the private sector. I dont think its right.

Yes, you have chosen to be a teacher but others has chosen to be tax exiles so what's the problem? You have chosen to work like monkey for peanuts while tax exiles feel the same in where they pay their tax. Yes?

[quote=mefty opined]Parliament has never intended to tax people who live abroad, except in limited circumstances, so presumably it is not tax avoidance.

I think we all know he left and moved to a low tax country to avoid tax

Apart from the tax issue there is a load of other reasons why you would want to live somewhere like Monaco or most of these other 'tax havens'.

He is free to do this and i am free to think he is a **** for doing this.

Much prefer the JK Rowling way

The simple fact is that if tax on individuals was lower then the likes of Paula and Lewis would be more minded to stay here - it's a classic case of the uk receiving lower overall tax receipts because of punitive rates of tax on those who are in fact reasonably mobile and can choose where to live. Or shooting ourselves in the foot in everyday parlance.

Tax avoidance is bending the rules of the tax system to gain a tax advantage that Parliament never intended," said a spokesman for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

This was the definition AA chose to quote, according to this definition it isn't, you may wish to define it differently.

it's a classic case of the uk receiving lower overall tax receipts because of punitive rates of tax on those who are in fact reasonably mobile and can choose where to live

I'd be interested to see the stats you have to support this claim.

Imagine this scenario where you earn £10 million a year then out of that £6 million (assuming 60% tax) goes to the tax pot.

Ya, many bling bling gone! In your mind you work hard, assuming you do, for it then someone grabs a big chunk of it away ...

😕

The simple fact is that if tax on individuals was lower then the likes of Paula and Lewis would be more minded to stay here - it's a classic case of the uk receiving lower overall tax receipts because of punitive rates of tax on those who are in fact reasonably mobile and can choose where to live. Or shooting ourselves in the foot in everyday parlance.

They would also be more likely to stay if if there was an international agreement to blacklist tax havens.

I'd be interested to see the stats you have to support this claim.

When he moved to Switzerland he admitted it was for tax avoidance
Lots of nice places have higher tax if you think he is not there primarily to avoid tax then you are somewhat naive.

I'm not talking about LH specifically nor being naive. Just pointing out there are other benefits apart from the lower tax.

If Monaco and Blackpool had the same taxation and I could afford to live in Monaco I know which I would choose.