MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Ok so the Nova thread might have reminded me about this...
The negative side of electric car ownership? Or have Renault got it a bit wrong? These are all (iirc) £28-32k cars when new, can't remember seeing anything depreciate like this before:
The technology is moving so fast that five year old cars are not elegant any more?
Rachel
Outclassed by the latest generation of electric cars e.g. Tesla.
Maybe the pricing changed - Renault website claims pricing "from £14,245".
Isn't there a monthly battery lease to factor in?
Deceptive pricing, up to £89/month lease costs for the battery.
Shit oops, ignore my price statement. Still roughly £20k to £5k is going to hurt anyway!
Very few people would have "owned" those cars, let alone paid £25k. Most will be ex-fleet / leases.
Ouch ! That's going to salughter the electric "cost savings"
As I have said before for me right now it's Hybrid as the only sensible option if you want to go electric
Renault compulsory battery lease is insane, no idea how they sell any like that. Looked at one in the showroom last time i was picking my car up from its MOT, and can't see why anyone would ever buy one. Similar sized petrol car is much cheaper to buy and factoring in battery lease, cheaper to run too i'd gamble.
£89 is two tanks of petrol. £5k plus £89 is a well cheap car for lowish local miles imo...
Incredibly few will have been bought outright (the part outside the battery lease), Renault were doing silly cheap PCP & lease finance deals. Not worth it at all to pay the balloon payment, and Renault didn't seem to want to budge or offer a way to pay off the battery lease so they all came back.
Hopefully they see sense, if you could exit the battery lease for sensible money they'd be a decent buy at those prices.
Three year old French hatch. What did you expect?
The newer 2017 Zoes are pricier because they go much further, but the earlier ones were a bargain for a short range runaround. I know of people who have kept them at the end of the lease period because chopping it in for one of the newer ones would be much more expensive for extra range they don't need.
matt_outandabout£89 is two tanks of petrol. £5k plus £89 is a well cheap car for lowish local miles imo...
Two tanks of petrol is probably good for about 1000 miles in a small petrol engined car though. That's a lot of local miles.
I was thinking of getting a second hand Zoe as a replacement for our current car. It would mainly be used by my wife for work and any longer journeys would be in my pick up.
I did some back of a fag packet calculations based on mpg of current car, 1.4l petrol Astra, cost per mile of the battery lease and cost per mile of electricity to charge. At today's petrol cost it came in pretty even, slightly lower for the Zoe. Factoring in VED, reduced it further in favour of the Zoe. I then thought if you factored in the extra cost of a similar age low mileage equivalent ICE, say a Clio, over 5 years it reduced it significantly in favour of the Zoe. Added to this the likelihood of petrol cost going up and being able to shop around for cheaper electric, I'm coming down on the side of the Zoe at the moment.
£89 is two tanks of petrol. £5k plus £89 is a well cheap car for lowish local miles imo...
+1
Whattiler - for S/H, don't forget to factor in the cost of a charger and wiring it in- it won't charge from a 13A three pin socket. The calcs I've seen also have a very slightly lower maintenance per mile calc - no turbo, injectors, DPF issues, I assume.
As I have said before for me right now it's Hybrid as the only sensible option if you want to go electric
For you on a personal basis perhaps, but we note that Toyota who were big pro-hybrid anti-electric types are now going to be heading electric.
Must have found they had the rights to a lithium mine.
it won't charge from a 13A three pin socket
It can, albeit slowly and not very efficiently, if you buy the adapter, but they're not cheap so unless you're regularly going to be charging it in several locations you might as well get a proper charger.
I think you can still get the OLEV grant with a second hand car, can't you?
£89 is two tanks of petrol. £5k plus £89 is a well cheap car for lowish local miles imo...
You know it's £89 a month yeah?
That's more than my Wife spends on fuel each month. She'd be the perfect candidate for an EV. She only drives 15-20 miles a day, lots of short trips between stops, but she's not going to make the leap to EV if it costs more.
As above, it's £89 / month. So £5k + £1068 (per year) + eleccy charges.
I do low miles in a Fiesta 1L ecoboost, I spend nowhere near £89/month on petrol, not even half that. Although given my mileage the battery rental would be £69 or £79/month.
https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-finance/battery-hire.html
So a Tesla costs £100k and does 200 miles, a Zoe costs £25k and does 150 miles.
Mate of mine has one, I'll have to ask him how he purchased / leases it, he didn't mention renting the battery !
He's impressed with his and says it's saved him loads of money
I need to do some sums. As P-Jay above, my wife only does 10-20 miles a day, so range isn't an issue. What else is worth looking at?
[b]P-Jay[/b] - one year old Nissan Leaf probably the best option for Mrs P-Jay, then.
How does the battery lease situation differ with the Leaf?
Those Leaf prices are hilarious.
The depreciation is catastrophic, what happens when the battery no longer holds the charge? How much is a new battery ? Can you get hold of a first gen battery even ?
But £5k for a run about is cheap for a relatively new car with little miles.
I just had a look at the original link and changed the car from a zoe to a clio. At first glance the cars with similar age/spec are about 7-8 grand.
Is the depreciation on a Zoe much worse than a Clio then?
stevio the Clio didn't cost £25, more like £15-18 ?
It's a bit like buying a razor (cheap purchase, expensive replacement heads)
Surprised at how cheap they are though. 90%+ of our journeys are in range of an electric car - regular short trips
If we needed a 2nd car we'd consider one if the pricing got more realistic
Fair enough Jamba. Looks like depreciation is a real issue.
I wonder if it's driven by the battery thing or is it because of the new gen of EVs about to hit the market with bigger ranges?
Edukator has one (in France) I've asked him what the expected economics are and about the battery lease
igm I don't doubt full electric is a genuine possibility for the future just for me it's just later not now. Also Hybrid's have no range issues
Some of the Zoes and Leafs have batteries included, but are sometimes a little more to buy 2nd hand. You can also still get a grant for the charger at home.
For a 2nd car they look like a reasonable option if most of your journeys would be in range. Battery life seems better than feared, but if you do need to replace them it could be pricey.
How does the battery lease situation differ with the Leaf?
Some were sold with the battery, some were sold on a battery lease arrangement like the Zoe. If you're looking on autotrader, the leased ones have E in the model name. Nissan dealers can apparently buy out the battery to make a leased one owned again.
So a Tesla costs £100k and does 200 miles, a Zoe costs £25k and does 150 miles.
The latest Tesla is about $35k, UK pricing TBA.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3
I don't know what the deal is with batteries for electric vehicles, is there a standard one size fits all approach, or does it vary between manufacturers?
does it vary between manufacturers?
They are all car specific.
I'd be tempted if I had £4.5k, it'd be unusual for both of us in the 'spoon house to be doing >100miles in a day. And I'm getting through £200 in petrol each month so £110 to lease a battery for unlimited milage seems a bargain.
That and no congestion or LEZ charges now or in the future. If you work in London that could save a fair amount.
They are all car specific.
Depends how far you go in stripping down, apparently inside they're just a load of 18650 cells, so if you're that way inclined you could re-build one. A colleague stripped and refurbished (by charging the cells individually on a smarter charger) a prius one when it failed (NiMH not Li-ion, but the same principle).
For a 2nd car they look like a reasonable option if most of your journeys would be in range. Battery life seems better than feared, but if you do need to replace them it could be pricey.
That's the advantage of leasing the battery, you never need to pay outright to replace them.
Depends how far you go in stripping down, apparently inside they're just a load of 18650 cells, so if you're that way inclined you could re-build one
Well you could, but wiring up over 1700 18650 cells DIY is quite brave....
The Tesla batteries are pretty sophisticated, custom cell chemistry, explosive charge 1500A fuse, integrated thermal cooling running between the cells, integrated thermal management etc etc.
I was tempted by a Leaf as there are lots at under £4k now. The minimum £79 a month for the battery plus £2 a go for charging it means it'd work out about £30 a month more expensive than my diesel Focus just for going to work. I know cost isn't the only factor to take into account though.
Says £49 (for 7500miles/year) is the minimum on the nissan site?The minimum £79 a month for the battery
I suspect the maths is making it pretty close to diesel anyway, presumably things like government subsidies are calculated to get them competitive.
This is probably the clincher though, the question is rapidly moving away from "can I use an electric car" towards "can I really justify my use of fossil fuel".I know cost isn't the only factor to take into account though.
Thinking of getting one for my daughter who is about to be 17. Not sure how it works with driving tests and insurance though.
Thinking of getting one for my daughter who is about to be 17. Not sure how it works with driving tests and insurance though.
No idea, I guess they'd have to skip the "show me how you'd check the oil" bit! Probably still worth doing lessons and the test in a manual though just to get a full licence.
You certainly can't mess with the batteries, well not in mine anyhow. It's not just batteries, they are cooled when hot and heated when cold so not just a simple setup
IMO all manufacturers need to move to standards to allow same charging and even battery swapping
and even battery swapping
Tesla built an automated battery swap station (90secs it takes), but it wasn't very popular...
"can I really justify my use of fossil fuel"
Also "am I happy pumping toxic fumes towards children's faces and baby robins"...
@thisisnotasppon - are you not forgetting the electricity cost of charging ? there is more than just the monthly battery lease cost
@thisisnotasppon - are you not forgetting the electricity cost of charging ? there is more than just the monthly battery lease cost
Not forgetting, just ignoring on the basis of being about ~£20/month to charge on the overnight rate for 60 miles a day, i.e. almost negligible in the scheme of things, less than it costs to tax my current car in fact!
This is the cost of the battery for a second hand Leaf - it seems it increases depending on annual mileage
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This link says a Leaf uses around 1kwh for 3 miles. So 20kwh for 60 miles. At 12p per kWh that's £2.40 per day or £72 per month for 60 miles per day.
Of course until free on Street charging stops that cost. Can be brought down.
A tarrif with a cheap night rate would cut that cost but increase the cost of electricity used during the day and evening at home.
Average use nearer 40 miles per day.
Sat in an EV conference as we speak
So I bought a Zoé 40 with a cheque from the local Renault dealer. How dumb is that? They lent me one when my car was in for service and I liked it enough to order one. I don't need it but then a good many on here have cars they don't need.
16 000e after minimal haggling and 69e a month for the battery for 7500kms with extra kms proportionally more. Add the electricity and it's like running a petrol car a size up. Servicing is cheap, insurance is very cheap, no taxes or malus.
On long trips we charge in Leclerc when shopping or Intermarché, on campsites, hotels... We seek out Type2 chargers with chargemap as it's an hour and a half for 200+kms - a charge from flat on a domestic plug is 25h with the 41kWh battery.
Range is anything from 200 to 400km but realistically the 300km Renault claim except if you want to go faster than the trucks on the motorway. Using the last few kms would be unwise so we've never done more than 257km, there was 22% left when we plugged in.
I like it, it's like err zen man. *raises hand hippy style*. No fuss, very little noise and off it goes. Handles fine, you don't have to turn the stereo up when you go faster (excellent aerodynamics), makes cute noises. The last car that made me smile as much was an R5 Gt turbo, but obviously for different reasons.
Depreciation? Renault innit. How much depreciation can there be on a car that only costs 16 000e? (no need to answer, I know)
Thread found thanks to your PM Jamba, ta.
On a big brother note. The state of charge, charging or not, Kms etc show up on the Renault site. No apps on my phone so it's the car that is sending info direct to Renault. I'm intrigued as to how much info they can get.
The hip Renault Zoe was found to “leak” such data as GPS position, temperature, and charge state of the traction battery, all though its CAN bus system, which can be turned on remotely. The governors at Renault apparently can even block charging the Zoe if you are behind with payments.
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/car-makers-spying-on-car-buyers-bmw-renault-mercedes-revealed
Hmmm, how long before a manufacturer is summonsed to give the information to a court judging a road injury or fatality? Distance every two minutes gives them speed up to the point the seat belt tensioner activated. Correlate with the GPS data and they can tell the court how you were driving.
On the bright side if I report it stolen they have no excuse for not stopping it and telling my insurers/the feds where it is.
It's tempting but too much hassle to make a request for copies of the log under France's data protection laws and see exactly what they've got on us.
It's tempting but too much hassle to make a request for copies of the log under France's data protection laws and see exactly what they've got on us.
Someone must have and stuck it online somewhere....
This link says a Leaf uses around 1kwh for 3 miles. So 20kwh for 60 miles. At 12p per kWh that's £2.40 per day or £72 per month for 60 miles per day.
I'm currently getting 4.3m/kw out of mine here in the hilly Pennines
Home is supplied by Ecotricity, who claim 100% renewable sources and give us 40 pounds/year discount on the bills for having an electric car.
Leased it for two years at 192/month with 500 deposit. It's currently costing me less/month* than my last car (diesel) which I owned outright.
Factoring in the total cost including servicing, insurance, diesel and tax
How many miles per month Mark?
I'm currently getting 4.3m/kw out of mine here in the hilly Pennines
Regenerative braking will be working overtime!
12.4 kWh/100km average so far.
Electroauto anecdote #1, descending the Col d'Abisque regenerates 4kWh.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how much your mileage will lessen if you are in heavy traffic. Someone was telling me it makes a big difference, so if you're commuting every day you might get less than half the stated distances.
I would think it would drop in traffic, but drop much less than an IC engined car would. As long as you are not booting it between lights all the time.
This link says a Leaf uses around 1kwh for 3 miles. So 20kwh for 60 miles. At 12p per kWh that's £2.40 per day or £72 per month for 60 miles per day.Of course until free on Street charging stops that cost. Can be brought down.
A tariff with a cheap night rate would cut that cost but increase the cost of electricity used during the day and evening at home.
I was assuming economy 7 at home and free at work, so about 1/4 of the daytime rate overall.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how much your mileage will lessen if you are in heavy traffic. Someone was telling me it makes a big difference, so if you're commuting every day you might get less than half the stated distances.
Other way around surely.
An electric vehicle on the motorway at 70mph is just heating the air around it.
An electric vehicle at 60mph on the motorway is only using about 65% of the energy of the one at 70. And it gees down from there, at 35 it's only about 15% of the power required to do 70 (takes you twice as long though, but you're still only using 30% of the energy).
And you get regenerative braking which you won't on the motorway.
The issue with town driving is the acceleration and deceleration. Regenerative braking doesn't put back all the KE you put in of course, it's inefficient. Also the time spent sat still running the car's systems, heating or aircon etc.
Also on my Prius (old tech as it is) the regen braking contributes less at lower speeds because it can't generate enough power to cause enough deceleration I think - and below about 6 or 7mph it doesn't work at all and the normal brakes kick in. So if you are carefully rolling up to traffic lights and anticipating, you can do very well. If you are booting up to speed them braking firmly, you will lose out far more.
Also on my Prius (old tech as it is) the regen braking contributes less at lower speeds because it can't generate enough power to cause enough deceleration I think - and below about 6 or 7mph it doesn't work at all and the normal brakes kick in. So if you are carefully rolling up to traffic lights and anticipating, you can do very well. If you are booting up to speed them braking firmly, you will lose out far more.
Didn't know that, I assumed it would almost be the reverse, there would be far too much power braking from 60-70 although I guess you can brake an electric car about as hard as you can accelerate.
But you're still getting something back, which is better than nothing on the motorway.
Isentropic Vs Isenthalpic losses thermodynamic fans!
But you're still getting something back, which is better than nothing on the motorway.
Someone calculated that in the Prius you get back 25% of what you put in, but that input is mostly IC power, and I'm not sure NiMH charging is as efficient as Li-ion.
Also, I do get something back on the motorway, just not much. On a motorway run I'll have half a leaf* or a leaf in each 5 minute segment on the energy graph, whereas on a hilly A road it'll be 1.5-2.5 leaves.
* a leaf = 25Wh IIRC
Not so IME, Rockape. Stop start driving doesn't impact range much becuase regeneration replaces braking unless you brake hard, something you don't do crawling in traffic. And you're going slowly.
It's aerodynamic drag that impacts range most IME, the faster you go the more you consume. Driving around the péripherique at the 70kmh limit will get you 400km, head down the A7 at 130kmh and you'll roughly halve that.
Electroauto anecdote #2, the higest consumption we've seen was on the rain washed A64 with headlights, wipers, demist, radio and a head wind.
Someone somewhere has probably developped an app that calculates the best speed/recharge time compromise on trips requiring multiple charges. F1 pit-stop style - one stop or two. A challenge for Footflaps to find it. 😉
unless you brake hard, something you don't do crawling in traffic
Depends a lot on where you are imo. Places like West London suburbs I can get spectacular economy in the Prius cruising on long straight flat 30mph roads then crawling in a queue. However some suburban areas are full of windy hilly lanes where you have to accelerate and brake a lot. I'd imagine a typical hilly Northern town would be like that, or somewhere in the Valleys where you have to ride down steep hills on the actual brakes. It probably varies by country too - loads of flat straight suburban roads in the US with long sight lines to traffic lights etc. Not so here. But France probably similar to here.
Part of our school run is a busy single track lane where you have to brake and accelerate a lot. Shags our fuel economy (well - 48mpg down from 60 on motorways is about as bad as it gets).
Electroauto anecdote #3. The Zoé goes down the 13% section of the Aubisque with no road brakes. They've improved the transition from lift off to braking a lot since the first generation Kangoo (which stood on its nose when you lifted off) and Fluence. You now have to use the brake pedal to get high levels of regeneration, and as predicted by someone above, you get similar braking forces to when you floor the accelerator. It all works astonishingly smoothly.
Driving down to Verbier last weekend was surprised by the number of German and Dutch plated Tesla's about. Not a lot, but how many high value cars do you see about generally? But for the distances involved in getting where they were quite a lot!
Not so IME, Rockape.
Okay Ed, I'll take your word for it! It all sounds perfectly feasible.
Makes you wonder what the tech will be like in another 20 years doesn't it?
Not a lot, but how many high value cars do you see about generally?
Lots on the Autobahn in Germany, and the high powered ones too. Something to do with German company car taxation being favourable towards expensive fast saloons. Guess that's why German companies make so many.
How many miles per month Mark?
I do about 750
German taxes favour electric company cars says the German standing next to me. He adds that you see lots of Teslas in Norway because car tax there is punitive except on electric cars.
Hmmm, how long before a manufacturer is summonsed to give the information to a court judging a road injury or fatality?
Already stored in the air bag module in the car: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/3197219/Driver-whose-car-killed-couple-caught-by-black-box-at-113mph-court-hears.html
Interesting to see that it doesn't make great economic sense if you're doing fairly low mileage as I am at the moment - on average I probably spend less on fuel than the minimum lease cost. At 7500 miles a year, that's 625 miles a month, 12.5 gallons at 50mpg (about my average in a Mondeo), 57 litres, £65.55 at current prices. I suppose it makes more sense if you're driving in towns a lot and getting lower mpg?
In fact according to my calcs, it would only be cheaper to rent a battery for a Zoe than putting fuel my car at 50mpg if my annual mileage was between 8850 and 9000 miles or over 10700 miles. I'm ignoring servicing costs for an ICE here, but then I'm also ignoring leccy costs.
Interesting to see that it doesn't make great economic sense if you're doing fairly low mileage as I am at the moment
If you're talking about Mark's £192/mo that's the lease cost not the running costs. Subtract the cost of two tanks of fuel and add the much smaller cost of the leccy, then he's leasing a new car for what - £120/mo? Quite cheap isn't it?
If you're talking about the battery lease, then yes - if you do 5k miles a year it's expensive.
In fact according to my calcs, it would only be cheaper to rent a battery for a Zoe than putting fuel my car at 50mpg
Don't forget that if you are driving around town you'd be lucky to get 50mpg - in a small petrol city type car, the kind with which the Zoe is competing, you'd be more likely getting 40mpg on a good day I reckon. Unless it was something like a Yaris non-plugin hybrid.
Home is supplied by Ecotricity, who claim 100% renewable sources and give us 40 pounds/year discount on the bills for having an electric car.
To clarify this for me - how does the grid manage to supply green electricity to one householder while supplying fossil fuel power to the next? Or is it not one big mix and everyone in any particular local area gets the same mix of green and brown electricity. So sign up to a green supplier and your power the next day is no greener than before?
It doesn't. They just add up the usage of all their customers and ensure they are putting at least that much into the grid.
You don't get the actual electrons that were energised by wind turbines being routed directly to your house instead of your neighbours 🙂 However the practical upshot in terms of carbon footprint is the same. In other words you might be getting brown electricity but someone else who's paid for brown is getting green.
It means you money goes to alternative energy suppliers who will then be profitable, further invest and continue the transition to less polluting electricity generation. Domestic consumers pay afixed price which is better for suppliers than selling on the open market, so signing up with them does make a difference.
[quote=molgrips ]If you're talking about the battery lease, then yes - if you do 5k miles a year it's expensive.
I was - apologies for not being clearer. Yes I do get that if you're driving in a city you won't get 50mpg (I did mention that), but even at 40mpg you need to be doing 6500 miles a year for the battery lease to be less than the fuel. Not that low mileage for city use.