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@thisisnotasppon - are you not forgetting the electricity cost of charging ? there is more than just the monthly battery lease cost
@thisisnotasppon - are you not forgetting the electricity cost of charging ? there is more than just the monthly battery lease cost
Not forgetting, just ignoring on the basis of being about ~£20/month to charge on the overnight rate for 60 miles a day, i.e. almost negligible in the scheme of things, less than it costs to tax my current car in fact!
This is the cost of the battery for a second hand Leaf - it seems it increases depending on annual mileage
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This link says a Leaf uses around 1kwh for 3 miles. So 20kwh for 60 miles. At 12p per kWh that's £2.40 per day or £72 per month for 60 miles per day.
Of course until free on Street charging stops that cost. Can be brought down.
A tarrif with a cheap night rate would cut that cost but increase the cost of electricity used during the day and evening at home.
Average use nearer 40 miles per day.
Sat in an EV conference as we speak
So I bought a Zoé 40 with a cheque from the local Renault dealer. How dumb is that? They lent me one when my car was in for service and I liked it enough to order one. I don't need it but then a good many on here have cars they don't need.
16 000e after minimal haggling and 69e a month for the battery for 7500kms with extra kms proportionally more. Add the electricity and it's like running a petrol car a size up. Servicing is cheap, insurance is very cheap, no taxes or malus.
On long trips we charge in Leclerc when shopping or Intermarché, on campsites, hotels... We seek out Type2 chargers with chargemap as it's an hour and a half for 200+kms - a charge from flat on a domestic plug is 25h with the 41kWh battery.
Range is anything from 200 to 400km but realistically the 300km Renault claim except if you want to go faster than the trucks on the motorway. Using the last few kms would be unwise so we've never done more than 257km, there was 22% left when we plugged in.
I like it, it's like err zen man. *raises hand hippy style*. No fuss, very little noise and off it goes. Handles fine, you don't have to turn the stereo up when you go faster (excellent aerodynamics), makes cute noises. The last car that made me smile as much was an R5 Gt turbo, but obviously for different reasons.
Depreciation? Renault innit. How much depreciation can there be on a car that only costs 16 000e? (no need to answer, I know)
Thread found thanks to your PM Jamba, ta.
On a big brother note. The state of charge, charging or not, Kms etc show up on the Renault site. No apps on my phone so it's the car that is sending info direct to Renault. I'm intrigued as to how much info they can get.
The hip Renault Zoe was found to “leak” such data as GPS position, temperature, and charge state of the traction battery, all though its CAN bus system, which can be turned on remotely. The governors at Renault apparently can even block charging the Zoe if you are behind with payments.
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/car-makers-spying-on-car-buyers-bmw-renault-mercedes-revealed
Hmmm, how long before a manufacturer is summonsed to give the information to a court judging a road injury or fatality? Distance every two minutes gives them speed up to the point the seat belt tensioner activated. Correlate with the GPS data and they can tell the court how you were driving.
On the bright side if I report it stolen they have no excuse for not stopping it and telling my insurers/the feds where it is.
It's tempting but too much hassle to make a request for copies of the log under France's data protection laws and see exactly what they've got on us.
It's tempting but too much hassle to make a request for copies of the log under France's data protection laws and see exactly what they've got on us.
Someone must have and stuck it online somewhere....
This link says a Leaf uses around 1kwh for 3 miles. So 20kwh for 60 miles. At 12p per kWh that's £2.40 per day or £72 per month for 60 miles per day.
I'm currently getting 4.3m/kw out of mine here in the hilly Pennines
Home is supplied by Ecotricity, who claim 100% renewable sources and give us 40 pounds/year discount on the bills for having an electric car.
Leased it for two years at 192/month with 500 deposit. It's currently costing me less/month* than my last car (diesel) which I owned outright.
Factoring in the total cost including servicing, insurance, diesel and tax
How many miles per month Mark?
I'm currently getting 4.3m/kw out of mine here in the hilly Pennines
Regenerative braking will be working overtime!
12.4 kWh/100km average so far.
Electroauto anecdote #1, descending the Col d'Abisque regenerates 4kWh.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how much your mileage will lessen if you are in heavy traffic. Someone was telling me it makes a big difference, so if you're commuting every day you might get less than half the stated distances.
I would think it would drop in traffic, but drop much less than an IC engined car would. As long as you are not booting it between lights all the time.
This link says a Leaf uses around 1kwh for 3 miles. So 20kwh for 60 miles. At 12p per kWh that's £2.40 per day or £72 per month for 60 miles per day.Of course until free on Street charging stops that cost. Can be brought down.
A tariff with a cheap night rate would cut that cost but increase the cost of electricity used during the day and evening at home.
I was assuming economy 7 at home and free at work, so about 1/4 of the daytime rate overall.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how much your mileage will lessen if you are in heavy traffic. Someone was telling me it makes a big difference, so if you're commuting every day you might get less than half the stated distances.
Other way around surely.
An electric vehicle on the motorway at 70mph is just heating the air around it.
An electric vehicle at 60mph on the motorway is only using about 65% of the energy of the one at 70. And it gees down from there, at 35 it's only about 15% of the power required to do 70 (takes you twice as long though, but you're still only using 30% of the energy).
And you get regenerative braking which you won't on the motorway.
The issue with town driving is the acceleration and deceleration. Regenerative braking doesn't put back all the KE you put in of course, it's inefficient. Also the time spent sat still running the car's systems, heating or aircon etc.
Also on my Prius (old tech as it is) the regen braking contributes less at lower speeds because it can't generate enough power to cause enough deceleration I think - and below about 6 or 7mph it doesn't work at all and the normal brakes kick in. So if you are carefully rolling up to traffic lights and anticipating, you can do very well. If you are booting up to speed them braking firmly, you will lose out far more.
Also on my Prius (old tech as it is) the regen braking contributes less at lower speeds because it can't generate enough power to cause enough deceleration I think - and below about 6 or 7mph it doesn't work at all and the normal brakes kick in. So if you are carefully rolling up to traffic lights and anticipating, you can do very well. If you are booting up to speed them braking firmly, you will lose out far more.
Didn't know that, I assumed it would almost be the reverse, there would be far too much power braking from 60-70 although I guess you can brake an electric car about as hard as you can accelerate.
But you're still getting something back, which is better than nothing on the motorway.
Isentropic Vs Isenthalpic losses thermodynamic fans!
But you're still getting something back, which is better than nothing on the motorway.
Someone calculated that in the Prius you get back 25% of what you put in, but that input is mostly IC power, and I'm not sure NiMH charging is as efficient as Li-ion.
Also, I do get something back on the motorway, just not much. On a motorway run I'll have half a leaf* or a leaf in each 5 minute segment on the energy graph, whereas on a hilly A road it'll be 1.5-2.5 leaves.
* a leaf = 25Wh IIRC
Not so IME, Rockape. Stop start driving doesn't impact range much becuase regeneration replaces braking unless you brake hard, something you don't do crawling in traffic. And you're going slowly.
It's aerodynamic drag that impacts range most IME, the faster you go the more you consume. Driving around the péripherique at the 70kmh limit will get you 400km, head down the A7 at 130kmh and you'll roughly halve that.
Electroauto anecdote #2, the higest consumption we've seen was on the rain washed A64 with headlights, wipers, demist, radio and a head wind.
Someone somewhere has probably developped an app that calculates the best speed/recharge time compromise on trips requiring multiple charges. F1 pit-stop style - one stop or two. A challenge for Footflaps to find it. 😉
unless you brake hard, something you don't do crawling in traffic
Depends a lot on where you are imo. Places like West London suburbs I can get spectacular economy in the Prius cruising on long straight flat 30mph roads then crawling in a queue. However some suburban areas are full of windy hilly lanes where you have to accelerate and brake a lot. I'd imagine a typical hilly Northern town would be like that, or somewhere in the Valleys where you have to ride down steep hills on the actual brakes. It probably varies by country too - loads of flat straight suburban roads in the US with long sight lines to traffic lights etc. Not so here. But France probably similar to here.
Part of our school run is a busy single track lane where you have to brake and accelerate a lot. Shags our fuel economy (well - 48mpg down from 60 on motorways is about as bad as it gets).
Electroauto anecdote #3. The Zoé goes down the 13% section of the Aubisque with no road brakes. They've improved the transition from lift off to braking a lot since the first generation Kangoo (which stood on its nose when you lifted off) and Fluence. You now have to use the brake pedal to get high levels of regeneration, and as predicted by someone above, you get similar braking forces to when you floor the accelerator. It all works astonishingly smoothly.
Driving down to Verbier last weekend was surprised by the number of German and Dutch plated Tesla's about. Not a lot, but how many high value cars do you see about generally? But for the distances involved in getting where they were quite a lot!
Not so IME, Rockape.
Okay Ed, I'll take your word for it! It all sounds perfectly feasible.
Makes you wonder what the tech will be like in another 20 years doesn't it?
Not a lot, but how many high value cars do you see about generally?
Lots on the Autobahn in Germany, and the high powered ones too. Something to do with German company car taxation being favourable towards expensive fast saloons. Guess that's why German companies make so many.
How many miles per month Mark?
I do about 750
German taxes favour electric company cars says the German standing next to me. He adds that you see lots of Teslas in Norway because car tax there is punitive except on electric cars.
Hmmm, how long before a manufacturer is summonsed to give the information to a court judging a road injury or fatality?
Already stored in the air bag module in the car: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/3197219/Driver-whose-car-killed-couple-caught-by-black-box-at-113mph-court-hears.html
Interesting to see that it doesn't make great economic sense if you're doing fairly low mileage as I am at the moment - on average I probably spend less on fuel than the minimum lease cost. At 7500 miles a year, that's 625 miles a month, 12.5 gallons at 50mpg (about my average in a Mondeo), 57 litres, £65.55 at current prices. I suppose it makes more sense if you're driving in towns a lot and getting lower mpg?
In fact according to my calcs, it would only be cheaper to rent a battery for a Zoe than putting fuel my car at 50mpg if my annual mileage was between 8850 and 9000 miles or over 10700 miles. I'm ignoring servicing costs for an ICE here, but then I'm also ignoring leccy costs.
Interesting to see that it doesn't make great economic sense if you're doing fairly low mileage as I am at the moment
If you're talking about Mark's £192/mo that's the lease cost not the running costs. Subtract the cost of two tanks of fuel and add the much smaller cost of the leccy, then he's leasing a new car for what - £120/mo? Quite cheap isn't it?
If you're talking about the battery lease, then yes - if you do 5k miles a year it's expensive.
In fact according to my calcs, it would only be cheaper to rent a battery for a Zoe than putting fuel my car at 50mpg
Don't forget that if you are driving around town you'd be lucky to get 50mpg - in a small petrol city type car, the kind with which the Zoe is competing, you'd be more likely getting 40mpg on a good day I reckon. Unless it was something like a Yaris non-plugin hybrid.
Home is supplied by Ecotricity, who claim 100% renewable sources and give us 40 pounds/year discount on the bills for having an electric car.
To clarify this for me - how does the grid manage to supply green electricity to one householder while supplying fossil fuel power to the next? Or is it not one big mix and everyone in any particular local area gets the same mix of green and brown electricity. So sign up to a green supplier and your power the next day is no greener than before?
It doesn't. They just add up the usage of all their customers and ensure they are putting at least that much into the grid.
You don't get the actual electrons that were energised by wind turbines being routed directly to your house instead of your neighbours 🙂 However the practical upshot in terms of carbon footprint is the same. In other words you might be getting brown electricity but someone else who's paid for brown is getting green.
It means you money goes to alternative energy suppliers who will then be profitable, further invest and continue the transition to less polluting electricity generation. Domestic consumers pay afixed price which is better for suppliers than selling on the open market, so signing up with them does make a difference.
[quote=molgrips ]If you're talking about the battery lease, then yes - if you do 5k miles a year it's expensive.
I was - apologies for not being clearer. Yes I do get that if you're driving in a city you won't get 50mpg (I did mention that), but even at 40mpg you need to be doing 6500 miles a year for the battery lease to be less than the fuel. Not that low mileage for city use.
Of course there are other reasons than cost. If no-one buys these cars then they won't succeed and they'll never get cheaper, they'll never become accepted and we won't end up with infrastructure for them.
[quote=molgrips ]Of course there are other reasons than cost.
Of course, but it's quite a big issue for most people.
Anyone know what insurance costs are like.
Miss Withersea with learn to drive next year, so will need to chop in the boy racer fiesta for something more insurable for a 17 year old.
A quick Google for costs indicates insurance costs are likely to be higher, but I'd like to hear from those who have an electric car.
Educator: feel free to continue the electroauto anecdotes; our Zoe should turn up at the beginning of September and I'm SO EXCITED
Our (car sharing, natch) way to work involves a lot of roundabouts and I can't stand all the ending up at the same speed after having used all your forward motion to heat up the world a bit.
Insurance is around 330e, I can't remember exactly. That's fully comp with windscreen and light cover and a 19 year old driver with only 700e excess for him. In France where insuraance is usually more expensive. That's the cheapest car I've ever insured. Make sure they include the leased battery if you lease it.
Electroauto anecdote #4: we drove through the massif central really slowly taking in the sights, the range at the next recharge was 406km, so 400km is possible if you drive between 50 and 75kmh on roads with lots of speed limits and very little traffic. Otherwise it would be plain anti-social.
Something to do with German company car taxation being favourable towards expensive fast saloons.
German taxes favour electric company cars says the German standing next to me.
Company car tax is based on 1% of the gross list price of the car, so electro were at a disadvantage, since leccy car list prices were typically higher for an equivalent spec car. But then there's a bodge to give up to €10k deduction from that list price for leccy cars.
Charging cars on employers premises is essentially a tax free perk, but surely that must be relatively peanuts? (haven't the foggiest how much it would cost to charge a Zoe or i3 with typical commuting miles).
Annual car tax is so low it's not even worth writing home about. Mine is an excruciatingly painful €121 per year. And for a hypothetical 3.5l Euro6 petrol engined Audi that I came up with, the tax was a whopping €1 more. I think leccy car tax would be €45/yr, but exempt for 5 years. Huge saving.
It'll need a lot more incentive than that and a lot more improvement on infrastructure to get me to swap to leccy. I'd spend more on Europcar for those long trips to Alps for ski/MTB trips than I'd save on tax.
My prediction is that the banning of Euro3 cars from the emissions zones is the incentive that will prompt me to change my car. And its replacement will be petrol.