[Closed] Removing programmes from streaming services

Well you know purging of historic artefacts always ends well and is carried out by those with the highest concerns for all people

It's not Basil's faux mocking of the Germans that is the problem.

It's the outdated, offensive language the Major uses to describe the West Indian and Indian cricket teams.

Well you know purging of historic artefacts always ends well and is carried out by those with the highest concerns for all people

Yep, reminds me of....

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

George Orwell, 1984

@jim That isn't how I read it, it was both the German references and the West Indian references. And the Major's character is even more of a bigot that Basil.

BLM is more interested in not being murdered than what John Cleese did in the 70's or what Matt Lucas did in the 90's. Culture is important and should be interrogated, but not at the expense of policing, housing, wealth and history.
It seems like either western culture is having a bit of a paddy and chucking out the baby with the bath water. It's also a distraction from the real issues, and people are being baited into non-event culture battle from the right to complain about free speech

Boosh has gone from netflix as well.

I was shocked when I heard, but to be honest it would be quite surprising to see Rudi on a newly made programme. Spirit of Jazz probably too, despite him being a skeleton.

after all, the joke of the episode (as with the majority of the series) is on Basil

Indeed but the part with the major talking about the West Indies cricket team and calling them W... and N.... is why it was removed. You know it’s best to check these things before getting all outraged.

'having a bit of a paddy' faerie? Interesting choice of phrase on such a topic - intentional or indication of how ingrained/ unnoticed such phrases are in British society?

BLM is more interested in not being murdered than what John Cleese did in the 70’s or what Matt Lucas did in the 90’s.

But to be fair it's a lot easier to just remove the odd statue and delete a TV show than fix any of the real issues....

Structural racism and inequality aren't going anywhere soon.

re Fawlty Towers, it was removed specifically because of the N word - the BBC produced an edited version in 2013 with the approval of cleese et al, but it wasn't the version that was being used, they were using the original hence the withdrawal

Also League of Gentlemen has been removed for black face. A black face which is clearly not supposed to be a "person of colour" black face, but hey ho. They are only removing while they "review" anyway.
What will happen if they don't review - riots in the streaming service lobby? Down with this sort of thing plaquards outside BBC headquarters? People posting complaints on social media about programmes that were made decades ago. It's all a bit beyond me.
I was watching a John Wayne film yesterday - in one scene James Caan put a metal tin on his head and did an impression of a Chinaman. Now I don't know where TCM channel's headquarters is, so I just kicked him in the face. Are Curry's still open BTW?

You know it’s best to check these things before getting all outraged.

As I said, the BBC article said it was because of both the German and West Indian references so I did 'check it out' thank you. Perhaps if they had been more detailed about exactly what terms were the ones deemed offensive I could have made a more informed opinion.

Very good point NBT it is temporary anyway while they review options so if you want to see Cleese do his walk then you still can just not on uKTB just now.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jan/23/fawlty-towers-isnt-racist-major-gowen-is

re Fawlty Towers, it was removed specifically because of the N word – the BBC produced an edited version in 2013 with the approval of cleese et al, but it wasn’t the version that was being used, they were using the original hence the withdrawal

The anagram of ginger, or the one ending in O? If the former, can't beleive the beeb used such language in the 70s prime time?

I think I would feel more strongly about this except I've never liked either Fawlty Towers or Little Britain.

Don't even get me started on *that* episode of The Goodies.

Didn't we have all this last year with "Friends" being homophobic?

Can we not enjoy a piece of fiction that contains a character that expresses socially unacceptable views; without the implication that we share those views?

Perhaps if they had been more detailed about exactly what terms were the ones deemed offensive I could have made a more informed opinion.

They were that’s how I knew.

Northshoreneil, thanks for pointing that out, it wasn't intentional and I'm sorry

but FFS – removing ‘The Germans’ episode of Fawlty Towers seems a bit absurd to me

why? Do you have an absolute burning desire to watch it right now? If you're that bothered  why not go and buy a DVD copy .

No worries. Just using it as an example of how these things are so widespread and ingrained, as a Paddy living in England over 20 years always amuses me when point it out to people - not once met someone who twigged what they had said, and equally never had it said/ directed at me maliciously, obviously just more sensitive to it being Irish.

Obviously never had fraction of what BAME have experienced but I have had some anti Irish experiences in my time and it wasn't pleasant.

Similar the now thankfully lesser used Paddy Wagon for police van surprises people when I point it out to them.

They were that’s how I knew.

In the 1975 episode, Basil Fawlty declares "don't mention the war" around German guests, while the Major uses highly offensive language about the West Indies cricket team.
I couldn't find your references to calling them W… and N…. on the article I read.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53020335

But you read it’s not because of Basil?

Didn’t we have all this last year with “Friends” being homophobic?

Can we not enjoy a piece of fiction that contains a character that expresses socially unacceptable views; without the implication that we share those views?

No. Not anymore. Even if those views were acceptable at the time. You are no longer allowed to enjoy it. If this is the case you need to burn your books as well. Some classic literature is well not 2020.

Question: where does this put certain films etc then? A few spring to mind: Russell Crowe in romper stomper. Alan Clarke's Made in England. American history X. All very, very offensive. Or is it ok becuase the protagonist gets his comeuppance where as Papa lazarou just collected wives whilst looking for Dave?

having a bit of a paddy

Does this mean I can no longer use the phrase "chucking a massive benny" as it discriminates against Falkland Islanders?

What about online betting?

You are no longer allowed to enjoy it.

Hyperbole much? If it's that important to you, go find an original copy of the box set, buy it, stick it on your shelf. Job jobbed as they say.

No one is saying you can't get this stuff. For example: My partner is currently researching for her next book on the depiction of particular Jewish attributes in 18thC literature. Now, taken out of context most of the content of this book would probably be massively offensive to the casual reader, as huge amounts of 18th C literature is pretty bloody offensive now to just about everybody who isn't a white male...Does it still exist, yep of course it does, is it available for folk to study? yes of course it is.

Question: where does this put certain films etc then?

There's a difference between an offensive character and being offensive.

“chucking a massive benny”

My pal who is Falkland islander suggests he's more used to applying the term penguin than Benny.

it’s a lot easier to just remove the odd statue and delete a TV show than fix any of the real issues

Yep, jumping on bandwagon and wanting to be seen to be doing something. When in reality their actions do nothing to address the issue whatsoever..

Question: where does this put certain films etc then? A few spring to mind: Russell Crowe in romper stomper. Alan Clarke’s Made in England. American history X. All very, very offensive. Or is it ok becuase the protagonist gets his comeuppance where as Papa lazarou just collected wives whilst looking for Dave?

American History X is a drama which addresses the subject of white supremacy and racism. Papa Lazarou is a character in a comedy who looks like a minstrel performer, which is a discredited form of entertainment directly associated with parodying black culture and discrimination against black people.

You can have a discussion about whether Papa Lazarou should be removed or not, but it's not difficult to understand the difference between a drama that take a serious look at racism, and the use of blackface in a comedy, is it?

Yep, jumping on bandwagon and wanting to be seen to be doing something. When in reality their actions do nothing to address the issue whatsoever..

Bad timing re BLM, they've chosen a year which already has a busy schedule eg Global Pandemic followed by massive global recession. Can quite easily see it being completely forgotton in a few months.

Also, in the UK we've also got some local programming eg Crasing out of the EU without a deal to add to the mix.

Still we'll have lots of unemployed free to pull down statues over the next few years...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/12/boris-johnson-says-removing-statues-is-to-lie-about-our-history-george-floyd

The "new Churchill" must be facing the realisation that there is never going to be a statue erected in his honour...

PP - I wouldn't know, guess you'd need ask a Falklander?
Drac - suspect referring to Paddy Power? No idea, was just offering personal perspective on how common phrases/ expressions may have deeper/ hurtful meanings when used without thought of where they came from.
I now have a son called Patrick (family name on wife's side - she's Northern Irish I'm from Republic), my father absolutely hates it if we call him the well known alternative Paddy. Reason is he worked in London in the 70's and still talks about the amount of anti-Irish sentiment he experienced, enough to lead him returning home and still mentioning it now.

Yep, jumping on bandwagon and wanting to be seen to be doing something. When in reality their actions do nothing to address the issue whatsoever..

Reviewing media that may not be helpful or possibly aggravate the current situation due to its nature. They could have done this before now but they didn’t. I grew up watching the show I won’t be shocked if I seen it, others have never seen and might not expect a character using the words, it’s probably fair to warn them. They do it for a flash of a boob warning there be some nudity.

Never mind statues, tv progs and the like. What about the prime minister? He's got a racist past n all.

There is a danger that if we have a series of demands from the overly 'woke' in attempt to edit out every potential item of offence (and there are many examples to chose from) then it gives those who would like to maintain 'the good old days' of racism, misogyny and homo-phobia a way to belittle the core argument. It certainly diverts the attention away form the core of the issue which is the inherent bias in society that disadvantages BAME communities and individuals. It gives the 'PC gone mad' brigade ammo to block out the important bits. Although as a privileged, middle class, white male maybe my view on this subject is less valid.

If I were cynical, which I am, I might think that the government wanted this to be an argument about TV shows and statues...

Meanwhile, systemic racism and the premature deaths of 70 000 people disappear from the newsmedia.

****ing hell. I hope the Welsh never twig what they're being called.

No worries. Just using it as an example of how these things are so widespread and ingrained, as a Paddy living in England over 20 years always amuses me when point it out to people

You know, it never once crossed my mind that "paddy" in this context had anything at all to do with the pejorative Irish stereotype. Is that genuinely where it comes from or just a coincidence? I'll stop using it immediately if so.

Does this mean I can no longer use the phrase “chucking a massive benny” as it discriminates against Falkland Islanders?

That one I do know the etymology of. It's from an episode of Crossroads.

Papa Lazarou is a character in a comedy who looks like a minstrel performer, which is a discredited form of entertainment directly associated with parodying black culture and discrimination against black people.

Yet the LoG didn't "use blackface in a comedy" so much as they themselves were parodying that parody. Papa Lazarou didn't have one redeeming feature whatsoever, he was a complete bastard. TV and films require characters with negative characteristics, villains to hiss at whilst the protagonist delivers them their comeuppance. Doctor Who had Hitler in it a couple of series back. Hitler! On a family show!

It's difficult isn't it, and I don't have the answers here. Maybe this is a bit like the gay (etc) wedding / homophobia debate from a few years ago, perhaps as a society we'll just have to overcompensate for a bit until some sort of equilibrium can be reached.

It certainly diverts the attention away form the core of the issue which is the inherent bias in society that disadvantages BAME communities and individuals. It gives the ‘PC gone mad’ brigade ammo to block out the important bits

True, but like the endless discussion about whether the N word is racist or not, you end up in a spiral of "well I'll use it because he's used it". And if you agree it shouldn't generally be used by "a privileged, middle class, white male" then it probably shouldn't be used by one on netflix/iplayer. It's suppose to be funny, but now it's just a bit cringeworthy, but you don't really want people (kids?) watching it and thinking it should be funny then repeating it under the pretext of it's just a joke/words"?

Yet the LoG didn’t “use blackface in a comedy”

There's a legitimate discussion to be had about removing programmes featuring blackface (like LoG) where there was clearly no racist intent, but where many people would argue the end result is something with racist connotations. Just saying "they didn't mean to be racist, so let's forget about it" is not really engaging with that discussion is it?

The point I was making was that people seem to be trying to confuse things by conflating a specific argument about removing insulting racial stereotypes with an invented argument about removing anything that anyone might find offensive.
Edward Norton's portrayal of a white supremacist in American History X is not perpetuating negative historical stereotyping of a minority group based on their ethnicity. Neither is the appearance of Hitler in Doctor Who.

Cougar, at risk of derailing thread - it's certainly an association I'm aware of the stereotype drunken argumentative dumb Irish trope. As said I've never had it said maliciously to me but found it an odd turn of phrase to use on a thread of this nature. And like you just now, have had people surprised when I point it out.

See, even then, I hadn't connected it to bar fights, I couldn't recall "angry" being a particularly common Irish stereotype. Ripped off your tits on Guinness though, I can see where that could come from. (-:

Every day's a school day. Thank you. It's not a phrase I'm in the habit of using very often but I shall endeavour not to use it again.

Stumbled across some interesting videos on YT today regarding this subject. John Cleese particularly scathing about the beebs censoring of Fawlty Towers. I’m most definitely with the comedians on this subject.
Will post links if you can’t find them.