[Closed] Removing an internal wall?

what's upstairs?

I have/had on like that in the dinign room that was in-line with the beams, but supported the cold water header tank all the way up to the loft.

Stoner - I'm assuming you mean directly in line with it?
Nothing. Maybe a partition wall that forms the built in wardrobe in our bedroom, but that's it.

No tanks at all in the loft

Nothing. Maybe a partition wall that forms the built in wardrobe in our bedroom,but that's it

See my post above.... the tank supporting wall went through the wardrobe as well..... 😉

EDIT: Sneaky edit PP! It may be the tank has been removed - do you have a combi boiler where there once was a back boiler?

You sure its not a pier that runs up into the roof doing something useful up there?

beer + hammer + making sure the wife isnt getting home until its too late to repair the damage.

The only way to be totally sure is to remove the ceiling next to it and physically make sure nothing is resting on it.

From your description its probably fine to remove but thats what I would do to be sure

Can we have before & after photos please?

Lift the boards upstairs & have a look

Whats the worst that could happen?

Whatever happens don't blame me!!

Firstly its a tradesmans job, and there are a lot of us having little work due to the DIY band out there.

STOP!

STOP!

Hammer time?

der der de de, derrr de

Firstly its a tradesmans job,

pffftttt.

Its not black magic. A bit of investigation, some common sense*, maybe an accro prop and strongboy on hire just in case, and then away you go.

* limited quantities are available

Thanks thepurist Just spat my tea over my keyboard!!!

When we moved in, right next to this stub of wall in the ceiling on the kitchen side, was a big flue for the old floorstanding boiler that would have been in the kitchen in the corner. It went right through my wardrobe and out of the roof.
Knowing what we had planned for the future we had this flue removed. At the same time the wardrobe was reconstructed becasue of the extra space left by the flue.
So, The wall directly above this stub wall is partition, and only made from MDF or similar (I've just checked with Mrs PP who's working at home) No strength to it at all.

But what is between the floor and the ceiling?

The wall directly above this stud wall is partition, and only made from MDF

to be consistent, you do mean "stub" of a wall dont you?

In which case, as TJ et al say above, cut the ceiling plasterboard away either side of the stub wall, do the same with the floor boards above and Im guessing the stub finishes in the floor void. Its possible the MDF partition is resting directly on the upper floor floorboards, or it may pass through the floorboards and rest on a little wallplate on the stub wall.

open it all up to check. Very easy to make good again - youd need to do some ceiling repair once you finsihed anyway.

I'd go for it.

A life without risk is a life not lived 🙂

dd - hijack - have you ever used liberon black bison liquid wax? (not on floors in this case)

The only way to be totally sure is to remove the ceiling next to it and physically make sure nothing is resting on it.

Ahh. I'd been holding back on that detail. Ceiling is already gone! This is how I know it's inline with one beam only!
I've had a close look and there appears to be plasterboard between the top of the wall and the ceiling too. Leading me to think the ceiling was put up then the wall constructed below it.

Also, out house was built in 1950, in the expansion after the war, and is made from poured concrete. Not precast. Not brick. Poured concrete. So this is a brick/block wall added after the shell was constructed, and I severly doubt it will be keyed into the concrete outer wall.

Firstly its a tradesmans job, and there are a lot of us having little work due to the DIY band out there.

I'm not paying anyone to something I can do for the price of a sledgehammer, sorry. I'll be fitting my own kitchen (Apart from the worktops) too. 🙂
I'm not new to heavy DIY. My first ever project was fitting an entire bathroom in our last house 🙂

to be consistent, you do mean "stub" of a wall dont you?

Sorry, yes I do. STUB.

Nope Stoner...only ever used their floor oil...and at that, only once or twice. It used to be really popular when oiling and waxing were two separate processes. The advent of Hardwax Oils has largely made it obsolete. What's your stuff for?

Liberon is a good brand though. They've been around for years.

if youve removed the ceiling, how can their be "plasterboard between the top of the wall and the ceiling too"?

Whats between the top of the wall and the floorboards/mdf partition on the upper floor?

dressing oak doors, skirting, architrave, banisters etc. Just to give bare wood a bit of nourishment and prevent finger marks.

I was wondering what the difference in effect would be between "neutral" and "clear" on oak? website's rubbish.

if youve removed the ceiling, how can their be "plasterboard between the top of the wall and the ceiling too"?

Because I haven't removed the wall, and I can see there's plasterboard still between it and the beam. Simples. 🙂

Let me have a look at their website...

Because I haven't removed the wall, and I can see there's plasterboard still between it and the beam

So from the ground up: wall > plasterboard> a void > 1st floor floor boards?

What's not to like - get thee thine hammer of doom!!* 😆

* - maybe

EDIT: That's not quite right is it - you're saying there is wall > plasterboard wedged between.... > floor beam > floor boards

so there's a beam sitting lengthways on top of a piece of plasterboard sitting on top of your stubby wall?

Anyway, enough playing Lionel Blair - is this Bob The Builder meets Give us Clue?

Take a photo! or three. with something in the picture for scale.

Yeah, you're right, the site is shit. Do you have a stockist nearby? Any reason you haven't looked at Osmo stuff? I've always used that for oak doors, skirting & architrave when I've fitted them. Lovely stuff. Easy to apply. Never once had a callback (honest 🙂 )

iPhone pic taken for kitchen planning purposes, so not ideal

[img] [/img]

You can see where the old boiler was, and above that was the flue I mentioned for the even older boiler than that one! You can see one beam inline with the wall, but it's resting on a long beam that runs the width of the house, as do all the others up there. You can just about see the plasterboard poking out too

Apologies for the state of the kitchen. It's a mess. But you can't make an omlette.... etc... 😉

you have building regulations approval for this right? if so your local building inspector will be able to look and tell you.

if there is beam resting on it i`d be reluctant to take it out. the beam may be holding up the floors above. the stub wall holding up the beam.

the plasterboard or other may be packing to get the beam at the right level.

there was probably a wall between your kitchen and diner which someone has removed in the past. the beam being the suppot for the floors over.

Any reason you haven't looked at Osmo stuff?

£25/L for door oil.

£50/5L for Liberon liquid wax. For floors, I would have gone with osmo or sikkens (using sikkens for all exterior stuff - CLS and Filter 7) for floor, but I just wanted a soft dressing oil not an uber special coating.

then again times are hard in the building trade - go nuts. someone will appreciate the work.

mark- your friendly civil engineer.

so there's a beam sitting lengthways on top of a piece of plasterboard sitting on top of your stubby wall?

Yup.
But as above, all the beams are also resting on another 'L-shaped' beam that runs the width of the house, from the back corner near the patio doors there, to the corner just to the left/rear of where I was standing when I took the pic.
If there was no beam above it, I wouldn't be asking this question 🙂

The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to buy a sledgehammer on the way home!

Firstly its a tradesmans job, and there are a lot of us having little work due to the DIY band out there.

If the tradesmans work isn't good enough to make people think they couldn't do better themselves and have a go for lower cost, maybe thats the reason? It's not brain surgery and while it does need some thought and knowledge, these are not hard to find and apply.

All the tradesmen I know (Ok, I only know 2) have more than enough work and generally only work 3 day weeks and have more spare cash than I do. I have no sympathy, sorry!

you have building regulations approval for this right? if so your local building inspector will be able to look and tell you.

No we don't. Why do we need it? How much does it cost? That sounds like a good way of getting a final answer to be honest.

I'm off home in 10 mins, I might take some better pics and post them up. 🙂

building control cannot advise on your building works. (they might give informal pointers from experience but that's not the same)

If the stub wall is not structural then you probably wont need any building regs. I cant see that pic on client site - but if the beam is using the wall for load, then youd probably be in the world of structural cals and then building reg notifications (if you are honest 😉 )

If the tradesmans work isn't good enough to make people think they couldn't do better themselves and have a go for lower cost, maybe thats the reason

I know some very good tradesmen. Plumber, sparky, plasterer, chippie. We've used them all recently. I have no qualms about employing someone when I can't do the job myself. But when you've just been quoted £3.5 - 4.5K for fitting a kitchen, and they expect you to sort the ceiling and remove the wall before they get there, you tend to baulk at it. Hence, I'm fitting the kitchen myself, doing the plumbing, the flooring, the decorating and have just removed the bannister in the hall (New newels & bannister we paid for to be fitted, but I'm finishing it off myself. 🙂

you may need to get a calc done on the minimum pier length required. if its only 100mm you may find the stub needs to be that long depending on the length of beam over.

whats at the other end of the beam? and how long is the span?. it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

depending on the arrangement of the floor over there may be roof loads coming down on the beam especially if it spans a long way.

for £150 go get a structural engineer, i

c

m probably in a differnt part of the world. then building regulations approval (£150). you will only need to do this later anyway when you sell the house. and then you will need to knock holes in things to show the authoritiies what bodging you did.

- but if the beam is using the wall for load

That's the point. I don't think it is. As I said above, ALL the beams in that ceiling are resing on another L-shaped beam that runs the width of the back of the house, bolted to the inside of the wall
And it seems the ceiling was constructed BEFORE this wall was built. So that would have been after the roof was put on, when everything was watertight, logically. Yes?

Off home now. Will do more pics. 🙂

the flooring

Flooring?

Did someone say flooring?

it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

Get a structural engineer, no one wants us at first but it will be a lot more expensive if we are needed and it's too late....

you may need to get a calc done on the minimum pier length required. if its only 100mm you may find the stub needs to be that long depending on the length of beam over.

whats at the other end of the beam? and how long is the span?.[b] it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall[/b] (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

depending on the arrangement of the floor over there may be roof loads coming down on the beam especially if it spans a long way.

for £150 go get a structural engineer, i

c
m probably in a differnt part of the world. then building regulations approval (£150). you will only need to do this later anyway when you sell the house. and then you will need to knock holes in things to show the authoritiies what bodging you did.

Right. I've already said it's NOT a brick built house. Concrete!!!! Solid poured concrete, about a foot thick!

Span from the middle structural wall is 3m

In the middle of the of the beam is a wall that is DEFINITELY structural as it goes all the way up through the house, in line with the pitch line of the roof. At the other end of the beam is nothing. It's secured to the front wall, with nothing underneath it. The line of the wall in the hallway is NOT in line with this wall, they are staggered. There are several other beams identical to this one, non of which are supported at this end by anything other than being notched into the beam bolted to the inside of the wall.

Have a better pic
[img] [/img]

As you can see there are a few beams, all supported identically to this one. I'd say, roughly, the one that looks like a double one, supports the wall to the bathroom upstairs. The one in question DEFINATELY supports little more than floorboards and a couple of bits of MDF. EDIT - come to think of it, after a second look, I now don't even think it's inline with the MDF partition above. There's 100% certainly no load on it other than the bedroom above though.
I was however wrong about the big beam along the wall being L-shaped. It's not, but each beam is jointed into it, which will be stronger I suppose.

Like this
[img] [/img]

And here's a closeup of the end of the beam in question, so you can see the plasterboard sticking out from under it! It was constucted after the ceiling was put up

[img] [/img]

Go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

leggyblonde - Member

it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

+1

^this.
think of long brick garden walls that have piers every so often down the length of them- they're not supporting anything above right? so what might they be doing??

why do you think the people who originally knocked through didnt go all the way (as it were)?

Equally, they might have just been ultra cautious- go for it if you're happy!

Get it checked by engineer:
This is what is called a "Nib" and what it does is to give the external wall some stability (there is usually one structual wall ruuning front to back that does this; when it is removed, a Nib is left to stop flex in outside wall)

Right, I've just had the measuring tape out. and had a peer into the ceiling void

The double beam in the pic is precisely that. At the other end, past the central wall, it rests on a solid wall for it's entire length, and in turn supports internal walls upstairs. At this end however, it's been beefed up to support the bathroom wall...... So that's where the load is, and that's why at this end, it's a double beam. The beam above the wall in question supports nothing but floorboards and carpet, not even the MDF wall of my wardrobe is inline with it.

It's not a structural wall. It can't be.

But seriously, thanks for making me think about this thoroughly chaps, I'm off to the sledgehammer shop! (Well, not today, but soon) 🙂

Nib is left to stop flex in outside wall

Flex in which direction?

The wall bending into the kitchen

not sure if that helped!

The nib might be a brace to stop the wall bending into the house

Surely the (roughly) 18 beams running through the house will do that? 🙂

And remember (deep breath 😉 ) it's not a brick wall, it's concrete.....

This wall IS structural. This wall braces the external wall of the house against wind loads and (in a minor way) provides lateral stability to the building overall.

As such you need to engage a structural engineer to carry out the necessary calculations to prove the external wall will be adequate with the internal wall removed (looks 50/50 to me with the two openings either side) and that the building has adequate lateral stability without this wall.

You or your agent will then need to submit the calculations and drawings to the local authority with the correct forms and fees, for assessment, in order to get building control approval for the works. Once you have approval you can knock your wall down. Once you have done it they will give you a completion certificate.

If you try to sell the house and the deed plans do not match the house layout the buyer's solicitor will ask you for your completion certificate for the alterations. See above. Easier to get at the time than in retrospect, as someone pointed out above.

I am a structural engineer running my own practice and we do a lot of this work, so this is an expert opinion. Give me a call if you want to discuss your situation, no charge.

Best

Tim

[url= http://www.aed.eu.com ]www.aed.eu.com[/url]

We are a bit closer 😉
[url= http://www.qedstructures.co.uk/ ]http://www.qedstructures.co.uk/[/url]
and I agree with Tim

Tim

nice website, your news page needs fixing though 8)

I think I need to change my name to Tim.....

and you copied our website! 😆

Stop listening. Hammer time. Pictures please.

Best way- get 3 quotes. They'll tell you if its supporting or not anyway.

If not and the best quote is relatively cheap I'd use them IMO.

Best way- get 3 quotes. They'll tell you if its supporting or not anyway.

If not and the best quote is relatively cheap I'd use them IMO.

I'll be honest. That's teaching your granny to suck eggs. I've done that more times than you've had hot dinners, sonny.

And 3 quotes for what? Firstly, I get a structural engineer in. If he says OK, I don't need quotes for anything.

-------------------------------------------
Any of you structural engineer-type chaps based anywhere near Farnborough, Hants? I'll pay. 🙂

As such you need to engage a structural engineer to carry out the necessary calculations to prove the external wall will be adequate with the internal wall removed (looks 50/50 to me with the two openings either side) and that the building has adequate lateral stability without this wall

I hate to say this, and I know I've mentioned it before, but I feel like everyone is ignoring it every time I type it....

But have you taken into account it's not a brick wall? *cough** concrete **cough**
(the outside wall that is)

🙂

My uncle owns a building company....

I'd still knock the thing down as I'm tighter than a ducks-butt

One of the few things I am qualified in is concrete, funnily enough. Now, that's not to say I'd argue with a specialist, but I don't think this wall will be subject to the sort of movement they're on about above. Willing to be proven wrong, mind, but this is more of a nuclear bunker than a house! 🙂

Vertical concrete elements are generally designed as "braced" which may well be what that nib/protrusion/wall are for.....

Obviously, if your walls are seriously deep a spindly 4" nib won't be doing much. But how deep are they? Are they reinforced? Where are the other perpendicular elements?

I'm a bit far away to visit, but the other guys may be closer.

Here you go, up in the loft is the best place to see the construction of this house. Concrete. No fines concrete yes, but still concrete and a foot thick 🙂

[img] [/img]

You wanna try drilling through it........

pp - you may want to read trailertrash's post.

Nevermind the wall. There are more important considerations.

Peter you really need to sort out your kitchen towel and kitchen-mitt co-ordination.

Seriously. Its wrong.

I like these and they would go well with your cupboard colour-scheme..

[url= http://www.conranshop.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=346962&cid=KitchenLinen&language=en-GB ]Goks kitchen solution[/url]

I'd start knocking it down, if its keyed into the outside wall in any way then time for a rethink...if its not, then it can't be doing much 🙂

I knocked down a wall in our kitchen, was good fun winding up the gf that the roof might fall in 🙂

[img] [/img]

to...

[img] [/img]

Kitchen now 33% biggerer 🙂

Geoff, I did thanks.

Your floor joists won't stop outside wall from flexing even if they're in joist hangers. A structural engineer would probably get you to put in some long steel rods into a parallel internal wall (only ever done this with the joists parallel to outside wall when it suffices to fix steel strap to wall and over half a dozen joists which are dwanged [nogginged-in your part of the world??] out to stop them moving).
There are not just vertical loads in buildings: Think about the weight of your roof tiles/slates on the angled roof rafters and the load goes horizontally as well as down the way for example.

I hate to say this, and I know I've mentioned it before, but I feel like everyone is ignoring it every time I type it....

But have you taken into account it's not a brick wall? *cough** concrete **cough**
(the outside wall that is)

I understand your point of view but you need to be aware that just because something is generically concrete it doesn't automatically follow that it's stronger than brickwork or blockwork. No-fines concrete was used for housing because it has good insulating properties and is quick to build. It is generally unreinforced or minimally reinforced along its centre just for crack control and basically consists of 10-20mm gravel bound together with cement slurry. As such it has fairly good strength in compression and is hard to drill into - you are effectively trying to drill into the stones that constitute it - but if you apply a significant bending moment to it, it cracks due to the development of tension in the convex face. If the compression due to the weight above is insufficient it may then collapse. As such the strength of a no-fines concrete wall is broadly similar to a weak concrete block wall of similar proportions and this is no surprise since both are basically bad concrete stuck together with cement/mortar.

No fines concrete fell out of favour some decades ago due to problems with sound transmission by vibration along the terraces that were built with it, oh...and the fact that it's murder to alter your house.

Any more questions? 🙄 😉

Peter, if you need a big sledge hammer, give me a shout. I have one sat in the shed doing nothing at the minute.

PeterPoddy - Member

Geoff, I did thanks.

Good luck with it then 🙄

Trailertrash kens his stuff. Saved me n the lady an expensive error when looking at a house and only this very evening presented us with what I can only describe as a masterpiece of calculations about knocking down an apparently non structural wall.

There seems to be more science than the average person thinks with these things. Didn't even think about windshear or snowloads. I just saw a hammer as the 1step.
Anyway- hi Tim. We will have cordial next time!

Spooky - you didn't think about putting the plates on the draining board away before knocking the wall down?

Any more questions?

I have a question trailertrash. Do these walls or nibs need to run the whole height of the house or not. It looks as though in this case it is only at ground floor level. An interesting post though and has given me something else to consider in planning taking down one of our walls. That is structural and yes I will be getting a structural engineer to look at it.

We had a stub wall that we wanted to get rid of. My wifes a structural engineer and we had a good gander at our original house plans lodged with the council. This being the second round of major renovations and my having learned that NOTHING on the lodged plans was ever built we took a very hard look at it. Its a timber framed house. In theory and according to the plans the wall should be able to come straight out - not bearing any load as such. I ripped all the Gib off and took the roof down...
The stub was holding the whole ****n roof up for that side of the house contrary to the plans.
Long story short - put in a nicely braced double beam and re-gibbed a nice flat roof. Yesterday she said "Why don't we remove the next stub wall as well..". This ones between the dining room and the lounge. She can do the calcs this time and sort it out, i've had enough.
Moral of story is get someone who knows what they are doing for a second guess.

Some powers require special resolutions to be exercised validly.

All of these "qualified" people are just part of the knowledge-industrial complex who just want to fool you with "science" and "expertise".