[Closed] Removing an internal wall?

it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

Get a structural engineer, no one wants us at first but it will be a lot more expensive if we are needed and it's too late....

you may need to get a calc done on the minimum pier length required. if its only 100mm you may find the stub needs to be that long depending on the length of beam over.

whats at the other end of the beam? and how long is the span?.[b] it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall[/b] (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

depending on the arrangement of the floor over there may be roof loads coming down on the beam especially if it spans a long way.

for £150 go get a structural engineer, i

c
m probably in a differnt part of the world. then building regulations approval (£150). you will only need to do this later anyway when you sell the house. and then you will need to knock holes in things to show the authoritiies what bodging you did.

Right. I've already said it's NOT a brick built house. Concrete!!!! Solid poured concrete, about a foot thick!

Span from the middle structural wall is 3m

In the middle of the of the beam is a wall that is DEFINITELY structural as it goes all the way up through the house, in line with the pitch line of the roof. At the other end of the beam is nothing. It's secured to the front wall, with nothing underneath it. The line of the wall in the hallway is NOT in line with this wall, they are staggered. There are several other beams identical to this one, non of which are supported at this end by anything other than being notched into the beam bolted to the inside of the wall.

Have a better pic
[img] [/img]

As you can see there are a few beams, all supported identically to this one. I'd say, roughly, the one that looks like a double one, supports the wall to the bathroom upstairs. The one in question DEFINATELY supports little more than floorboards and a couple of bits of MDF. EDIT - come to think of it, after a second look, I now don't even think it's inline with the MDF partition above. There's 100% certainly no load on it other than the bedroom above though.
I was however wrong about the big beam along the wall being L-shaped. It's not, but each beam is jointed into it, which will be stronger I suppose.

Like this
[img] [/img]

And here's a closeup of the end of the beam in question, so you can see the plasterboard sticking out from under it! It was constucted after the ceiling was put up

[img] [/img]

Go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

leggyblonde - Member

it may be required for stablity to the inner leaf of brickwork on the outside wall (if the loads are high) or be there to provide lateral stability for the other end of the beam.

+1

^this.
think of long brick garden walls that have piers every so often down the length of them- they're not supporting anything above right? so what might they be doing??

why do you think the people who originally knocked through didnt go all the way (as it were)?

Equally, they might have just been ultra cautious- go for it if you're happy!

Get it checked by engineer:
This is what is called a "Nib" and what it does is to give the external wall some stability (there is usually one structual wall ruuning front to back that does this; when it is removed, a Nib is left to stop flex in outside wall)

Right, I've just had the measuring tape out. and had a peer into the ceiling void

The double beam in the pic is precisely that. At the other end, past the central wall, it rests on a solid wall for it's entire length, and in turn supports internal walls upstairs. At this end however, it's been beefed up to support the bathroom wall...... So that's where the load is, and that's why at this end, it's a double beam. The beam above the wall in question supports nothing but floorboards and carpet, not even the MDF wall of my wardrobe is inline with it.

It's not a structural wall. It can't be.

But seriously, thanks for making me think about this thoroughly chaps, I'm off to the sledgehammer shop! (Well, not today, but soon) 🙂

Nib is left to stop flex in outside wall

Flex in which direction?

The wall bending into the kitchen

not sure if that helped!

The nib might be a brace to stop the wall bending into the house

Surely the (roughly) 18 beams running through the house will do that? 🙂

And remember (deep breath 😉 ) it's not a brick wall, it's concrete.....

This wall IS structural. This wall braces the external wall of the house against wind loads and (in a minor way) provides lateral stability to the building overall.

As such you need to engage a structural engineer to carry out the necessary calculations to prove the external wall will be adequate with the internal wall removed (looks 50/50 to me with the two openings either side) and that the building has adequate lateral stability without this wall.

You or your agent will then need to submit the calculations and drawings to the local authority with the correct forms and fees, for assessment, in order to get building control approval for the works. Once you have approval you can knock your wall down. Once you have done it they will give you a completion certificate.

If you try to sell the house and the deed plans do not match the house layout the buyer's solicitor will ask you for your completion certificate for the alterations. See above. Easier to get at the time than in retrospect, as someone pointed out above.

I am a structural engineer running my own practice and we do a lot of this work, so this is an expert opinion. Give me a call if you want to discuss your situation, no charge.

Best

Tim

[url= http://www.aed.eu.com ]www.aed.eu.com[/url]

We are a bit closer 😉
[url= http://www.qedstructures.co.uk/ ]http://www.qedstructures.co.uk/[/url]
and I agree with Tim

Tim

nice website, your news page needs fixing though 8)

I think I need to change my name to Tim.....

and you copied our website! 😆

Stop listening. Hammer time. Pictures please.

Best way- get 3 quotes. They'll tell you if its supporting or not anyway.

If not and the best quote is relatively cheap I'd use them IMO.

Best way- get 3 quotes. They'll tell you if its supporting or not anyway.

If not and the best quote is relatively cheap I'd use them IMO.

I'll be honest. That's teaching your granny to suck eggs. I've done that more times than you've had hot dinners, sonny.

And 3 quotes for what? Firstly, I get a structural engineer in. If he says OK, I don't need quotes for anything.

-------------------------------------------
Any of you structural engineer-type chaps based anywhere near Farnborough, Hants? I'll pay. 🙂

As such you need to engage a structural engineer to carry out the necessary calculations to prove the external wall will be adequate with the internal wall removed (looks 50/50 to me with the two openings either side) and that the building has adequate lateral stability without this wall

I hate to say this, and I know I've mentioned it before, but I feel like everyone is ignoring it every time I type it....

But have you taken into account it's not a brick wall? *cough** concrete **cough**
(the outside wall that is)

🙂

My uncle owns a building company....

I'd still knock the thing down as I'm tighter than a ducks-butt

One of the few things I am qualified in is concrete, funnily enough. Now, that's not to say I'd argue with a specialist, but I don't think this wall will be subject to the sort of movement they're on about above. Willing to be proven wrong, mind, but this is more of a nuclear bunker than a house! 🙂

Vertical concrete elements are generally designed as "braced" which may well be what that nib/protrusion/wall are for.....

Obviously, if your walls are seriously deep a spindly 4" nib won't be doing much. But how deep are they? Are they reinforced? Where are the other perpendicular elements?

I'm a bit far away to visit, but the other guys may be closer.

Here you go, up in the loft is the best place to see the construction of this house. Concrete. No fines concrete yes, but still concrete and a foot thick 🙂

[img] [/img]

You wanna try drilling through it........

pp - you may want to read trailertrash's post.

Nevermind the wall. There are more important considerations.

Peter you really need to sort out your kitchen towel and kitchen-mitt co-ordination.

Seriously. Its wrong.

I like these and they would go well with your cupboard colour-scheme..

[url= http://www.conranshop.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=346962&cid=KitchenLinen&language=en-GB ]Goks kitchen solution[/url]

I'd start knocking it down, if its keyed into the outside wall in any way then time for a rethink...if its not, then it can't be doing much 🙂

I knocked down a wall in our kitchen, was good fun winding up the gf that the roof might fall in 🙂

[img] [/img]

to...

[img] [/img]

Kitchen now 33% biggerer 🙂

Geoff, I did thanks.

Your floor joists won't stop outside wall from flexing even if they're in joist hangers. A structural engineer would probably get you to put in some long steel rods into a parallel internal wall (only ever done this with the joists parallel to outside wall when it suffices to fix steel strap to wall and over half a dozen joists which are dwanged [nogginged-in your part of the world??] out to stop them moving).
There are not just vertical loads in buildings: Think about the weight of your roof tiles/slates on the angled roof rafters and the load goes horizontally as well as down the way for example.

I hate to say this, and I know I've mentioned it before, but I feel like everyone is ignoring it every time I type it....

But have you taken into account it's not a brick wall? *cough** concrete **cough**
(the outside wall that is)

I understand your point of view but you need to be aware that just because something is generically concrete it doesn't automatically follow that it's stronger than brickwork or blockwork. No-fines concrete was used for housing because it has good insulating properties and is quick to build. It is generally unreinforced or minimally reinforced along its centre just for crack control and basically consists of 10-20mm gravel bound together with cement slurry. As such it has fairly good strength in compression and is hard to drill into - you are effectively trying to drill into the stones that constitute it - but if you apply a significant bending moment to it, it cracks due to the development of tension in the convex face. If the compression due to the weight above is insufficient it may then collapse. As such the strength of a no-fines concrete wall is broadly similar to a weak concrete block wall of similar proportions and this is no surprise since both are basically bad concrete stuck together with cement/mortar.

No fines concrete fell out of favour some decades ago due to problems with sound transmission by vibration along the terraces that were built with it, oh...and the fact that it's murder to alter your house.

Any more questions? 🙄 😉

Peter, if you need a big sledge hammer, give me a shout. I have one sat in the shed doing nothing at the minute.

PeterPoddy - Member

Geoff, I did thanks.

Good luck with it then 🙄

Trailertrash kens his stuff. Saved me n the lady an expensive error when looking at a house and only this very evening presented us with what I can only describe as a masterpiece of calculations about knocking down an apparently non structural wall.

There seems to be more science than the average person thinks with these things. Didn't even think about windshear or snowloads. I just saw a hammer as the 1step.
Anyway- hi Tim. We will have cordial next time!

Spooky - you didn't think about putting the plates on the draining board away before knocking the wall down?

Any more questions?

I have a question trailertrash. Do these walls or nibs need to run the whole height of the house or not. It looks as though in this case it is only at ground floor level. An interesting post though and has given me something else to consider in planning taking down one of our walls. That is structural and yes I will be getting a structural engineer to look at it.

We had a stub wall that we wanted to get rid of. My wifes a structural engineer and we had a good gander at our original house plans lodged with the council. This being the second round of major renovations and my having learned that NOTHING on the lodged plans was ever built we took a very hard look at it. Its a timber framed house. In theory and according to the plans the wall should be able to come straight out - not bearing any load as such. I ripped all the Gib off and took the roof down...
The stub was holding the whole ****n roof up for that side of the house contrary to the plans.
Long story short - put in a nicely braced double beam and re-gibbed a nice flat roof. Yesterday she said "Why don't we remove the next stub wall as well..". This ones between the dining room and the lounge. She can do the calcs this time and sort it out, i've had enough.
Moral of story is get someone who knows what they are doing for a second guess.

Some powers require special resolutions to be exercised validly.

All of these "qualified" people are just part of the knowledge-industrial complex who just want to fool you with "science" and "expertise".

Guys, we were (And still are) going to get someone in to look at it anyway. I'm not stupid enough to trust ANYONE on an internet forum 🙂

I understand your point of view but you need to be aware that just because something is generically concrete it doesn't automatically follow that it's stronger than brickwork or blockwork. No-fines concrete was used for housing because it has good insulating properties and is quick to build. It is generally unreinforced or minimally reinforced along its centre just for crack control and basically consists of 10-20mm gravel bound together with cement slurry. As such it has fairly good strength in compression and is hard to drill into - you are effectively trying to drill into the stones that constitute it - but if you apply a significant bending moment to it, it cracks due to the development of tension in the convex face. If the compression due to the weight above is insufficient it may then collapse. As such the strength of a no-fines concrete wall is broadly similar to a weak concrete block wall of similar proportions and this is no surprise since both are basically bad concrete stuck together with cement/mortar.

Just so as you know, I spent something like 6-8 years as a technician testing building materials, including 3000m3 a day on Limehouse Link in Docklands, and also 2 years as a concrete plant foreman. If there's one thing I know about, it's concrete. 🙂
What I don't know about, is construction. I've only made the stuff, not used it. What you say makes sense, but I'm not so sure it all applies here. 🙂
Remember, that double beam just to the left of the wall in my first pic supports an upstairs wall. WHich may, or may not, be a good thing: Good in that it will stop flex of the wall, but bad in that it's close to the wall that needs to come out.

We shall see. I shall report back. 🙂

I have a question trailertrash. Do these walls or nibs need to run the whole height of the house or not. It looks as though in this case it is only at ground floor level. An interesting post though and has given me something else to consider in planning taking down one of our walls. That is structural and yes I will be getting a structural engineer to look at it.

The ground floor walls resist more load from stability forces (wind and forces from structural misalignment) than the first floor walls, but In terms of wind load it's about the same. This difference is ignored in a building this size.

There may also be other structural factors at first floor that make a similar stub at first floor redundant e.g. different window layout.

Best

Tim

Just so as you know, I spent something like 6-8 years as a technician testing building materials, including 3000m3 a day on Limehouse Link in Docklands, and also 2 years as a concrete plant foreman. If there's one thing I know about, it's concrete.
What I don't know about, is construction. I've only made the stuff, not used it. What you say makes sense, but I'm not so sure it all applies here.
Remember, that double beam just to the left of the wall in my first pic supports an upstairs wall. WHich may, or may not, be a good thing: Good in that it will stop flex of the wall, but bad in that it's close to the wall that needs to come out.

We shall see. I shall report back.

Cool. However, you are thinking about the lateral stability of the walls in terms of them blowing over like books stood one end, from ground floor to eaves level? That can be one failure mode but is very unlikely as the first floor and external walls running at right angles to this one form a braced structure. The mode of failure that I am referring to is bending within the ground floor storey height itself. I appreciate that this may seem crazy to a non-engineer (a concrete wall getting bent by the wind? surely not) but that is how it is. Not only do walls fail in this manner in the real world but this is the check in accordance with BS8110/EC2 that building control will insist upon in order for your house to meet the building regulations and get approval for the wall removal and so a completion certificate. Hope this helps? This is all starting to get quite technical/abstract. The fact is that such walls are not worth anything under lateral loads in the standards as concrete is not permitted to take significant tension, such as that which develops in the convex face under lateral load. There is good reason for this - they often can't. For example, as you know, concrete shrinks when it dries, this opens cracks in all sorts of directions, tension cannot be transmitted across a crack = no bending strength - wall turns into a pile of concrete lumps, effectively a dry stone wall.

Cheers

Tim

Tim (and everyone), thanks for the advice, I'm already looking for a pro to come and look at it. I'm glad I posted this thread as we were going to just get a builder to look at it, and we would never have known about what you are saying. Now I know who to ask for proper advice. 🙂

Incidentally, 'failure' in engineering terms means anything from unacceptable cracking or bowing of the wall to a full collapse. So please don't think I am automatically suggesting your wall is going to explode if you take the stub off the back!

You're very welcome, any time 🙂

TimP - Member
We are a bit closer
http://www.qedstructures.co.uk/
and I agree with Tim

Tim

if we are plugging firms _ www.hop.uk.com just down the road from the above.

say hi to wadders for me tim, been a while.

Step 1 sorted - Council say we don't need planning permission. Phew!

Step 2
Structural Engineer says it's fine to remove the wall, and we'll have that in writing.

Thaks again for pointing me in the right direction fellas, much appreciated. 🙂