[Closed] Religion in schools

That definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God. Again - in my school, our assemblies were secular.

Generally speaking RE teachers* believe

I said NOT STW supposition. I'm asking for actual evidence that RE in schools is actually Chrstian doctrine presented as fact. Your imaginings don't help.

That definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God

How do you do "reverence or veneration paid to a divine being" in a 'broadly Christian' way without mentioning God?

That definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God. Again - in my school, our assemblies were secular.

Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God

Its not but some choose to do it less well than others.

I'm asking for actual evidence that RE in schools is actually Chrstian doctrine presented as fact. Your imaginings don't help.

Nice put down but i dont think the evidence you ask for is available so you can guess either side of that one from anecdotes

This is perfect for ten minute breaks.

You take alot of ten minute breaks, you should add that up some time.

And?

At least, it is a primary source which you singularly failed to come up with.

Which includes specific reference to a divine creator.

And stuff about other religions, which don't necessarily believe in a divine creator.

How do you do "reverence or veneration paid to a divine being" in a 'broadly Christian' way without mentioning God?

Notice the liberal use of the word 'should' in the definition.

The priest gave a talk to the kids after the worship at the Hindu Temple yesterday.

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

At this point I hope the teacher and other sensible adults pointed out that these are the words of a crackpot so take them with a [s]pinch[/s] bucket full of salt.

Wise words from loony tunes is hardly a positive experience for school children IMO.

You take alot of ten minute breaks, you should add that up some time.

1. I don't
2. Piss off

At least, it is a primary source which you singularly failed to come up with.

It was one person's story about one school trip.

And stuff about other religions, which don't necessarily believe in a divine creator.

In RE, yes. The guidance was describing a compulsory act of Christian worship. They should happen in churches, voluntarily, on Sundays.

All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily
collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual, moral and cultural development.
Local agreed RE syllabuses for county schools and equivalent
grant-maintained schools must in future reflect the fact that religious
traditions in the country are in the main Christian whilst taking account of the teaching and practices of other principal religions. Syllabuses must be periodically reviewed.
Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained
schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character,
though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination.

The should do relates to what they MUST do - its the first page of the article he linked and it is advice on how to do what they must do.

FWIW i got lucky I had not read it either 😉

1. I don't
2. Piss off

As such a disbeliever in religion I would have thought you could cope with reality.

I know all about my own flaws, thanks. Good still loves me.

[quote} molgrips - and what is wrong with studying fairy stories

Nothing at all, provided they're presented that way, and not as fact.

Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn't like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.

It depends what you mean by "RE" - typically there are two distinct activities - one is a lesson like geography or biology or maths. Sometimes referred to as Religious Education or Religious and Moral Education. Typically involves studying a variety of religions, and belief systems.

In contrast however, as the OP referred to, and others including myself (as both pupil of similar vintage to yourself and a parent) I can assure you that Religious Observance is practiced in (some) non-denominational schools. (Indeed as I posted earlier it is expected 6x a year in Scottish Schools). That religious observance typically involves singing of hyms, prayer, bible readings (or telling of bible stories), is often led by a minister of religion and some may be held in churches. These acts of worship are never accompanied by any critical review. Indeed when I challenged our school last year when they talked about "the true meaning of Christmas, and why we give presents" - the theme of such a service I am still waiting to hear back why there was no reference to pre Christian pagan winter festivals which include the exchange of gifts during winter months...

So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity [i]should[/i] be promoted in schools yet?

not really but your a very bad man for suggesting it shouldn't

So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?

A Hindu said something nice.

We have come a long way from the days when parents complained that their children didn't get the main part in the nativity play (are we still allowed to mention such things without causing offence) or reading the prayers or lesson!

You've seen what one group of students gets from it. In other schools, in other contexts, there maybe very different experiences.

There may be other, different personal experiences of kids being taught about other (non Christian) religions in school, but I've not heard any here ?

So I only have my own to go on.

Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.

I'm not saying everything related to religion in education is perfect.

I was talking specifically about kids being educated about other religions and faiths, rather than only in the "default" Christian religions, as mentioned earlier.

I was using those cases to counter an earlier example

You may think you were.

My point was specifically aimed at the comment that kids don't get educated about other religions and don't go to Mosques, temples etc.

And as I said, in my own personal experience, they do.

The examples you raised are not really relevant to the point I was making, and certainly don't counter it in any way.

It's almost like I was scanning the thread rather than reading in depth 🙂

My point was specifically aimed at the comment that kids don't get educated about other religions and don't go to Mosques, temples etc.

Yet another straw man.

At this point I hope the teacher and other sensible adults pointed out that these are the words of a crackpot so take them with a pinch bucket full of salt.
Wise words from loony tunes is hardly a positive experience for school children IMO.

Thankfully all the adults there realised that the object of the exercise was to teach the children that different people believe different things, and that's ok.

The differences are not a reason to dislike or mock people.

Maybe next time you should come along, it's aimed at 8 year olds, but I'm sure they could slow it down a bit for you.

Yet another straw man.

How so ?

I replied and quoted the person that said it.

Maybe next time you should come along, it's aimed at 8 year olds, but I'm sure they could slow it down a bit for you.

And now childish personal insults. Just a thought, but shouldn't you be respecting the fact that he believes something different to you, and that's ok?

How so ?
I replied and quoted the person that said it.

Where has anyone claimed that children don't learn about other religions? The point is about the way they learn about Christianity as opposed to other religions. Also, you claimed someone said kids 'never go to mosques' whereas I specifically mentioned 'on a regular basis'.

Classic case of twisting other people's arguments to suit your own.

And now childish personal insults. Just a thought, but shouldn't you be respecting the fact that he believes something different to you, and that's ok?

He can believe anything he wants.

And he should give other people the same freedom, without calling them Crackpot and Loony Tunes.

If he came along then he might learn some tolerance.

You don't seem very tolerant of his beliefs.

Makes me realise that my kids are lucky. Service every day at schools including Sunday, lots of theology lessons (even to a level or equivalent) and lots of chances to have their go at reading something and choices for parents to either watch or ride their bikes as they choose. Marvellous, none of these terrible dilemmas to deal with.

You don't seem very tolerant of his beliefs.

How can I be, He hasn't said what they are, or even if he has any.

He just insulted someone he's never met, based purely on the fact that he's a Hindu.

Last day of term and in 90mins l'll be off to the kids CofE school for the end of term service in the church down the road. Followed by the kids Easter bonnet parade around the school playground, where tea and cake will be served.

Did you hear that?

Tea and cake

See another great reason to have a little faith in your life.

Hats, chocolate eggs, tea, and cake are also available in secular venues. I had a hot cross bun last night, without having to consider one of the means execution favoured by the Roman empire; it was lovely.

Easter bonnet parades and egg decorating competitions are a great English Easter tradition. Nothing to do with religion though.

Religion should be removed from the curriculum in any form other than awareness that it exists.

IanW - Member
Religion should be removed from the curriculum in any form other than awareness that it exists.

Probably the worst idea ever, teach about it but don't indoctrinate people. Ignorance is one of the biggest issues in the world.

So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?

No. Everybody is agreeing but is too busy disagreeing to notice!

Perhaps we should all love thy neighbour more

Perhaps we should all love thy neighbour more

Or do unto others?

grum - Member
So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?

I have two....and lots of their mates. Very lucky all of them. Glad the such an opportunity still exists these days.

It depends what you mean by "RE"

Well as you say, RE is the lesson where you learn about religion. Collective worship is different. And not all schools do a religious version of that.

So I don't think it's fair to complain about RE lessons - complain about collective worship instead.

Collective worship is different. And not all schools do a religious version of that.

But all schools should, by law. This law is wrong, and is what campaigners are trying to change.

I don't think it's fair to complain about RE lessons

Nobody is.

complain about collective worship instead

We are.

So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?

I have two....and lots of their mates. Very lucky all of them. Glad the such an opportunity still exists these days.

Opportunities to read/sing in public can be, and are, provided in non-religious contexts.

The opportunity to sing and read aloud in a religious context is provided by your faith of choice on Fridays/Saturdays/Sundays at various venues around the country.

Indeed they are.

Not restricted to Fri/sat/Sun which is also a relief. They get more for nothing, even luckier than I first thought. And the music too, it's inspirational. Human voices and a skilled organist in harmony, fantastic.

Human voices and a skilled organist in harmony

Or, in a state school, a badly tuned upright piano played by an amateur (or a CD) while the hymn is sung without any real skill or enthusiasm.

None of which are arguments for/against compulsory Christian worship in state-funded schools.

Well a shame if such pleasures became restricted on an ability to pay basis?

mikewsmith - Member

IanW - Member
Religion should be removed from the curriculum in any form other than awareness that it exists.

Probably the worst idea ever, teach about it but don't indoctrinate people. Ignorance is one of the biggest issues in the world.

So thats awareness then.

Well a shame if such pleasures became restricted on an ability to pay basis?

It sounds like they already are, in schools. How many state schools do you think have a pipe organ and organist? 🙂

Thankfully, churches, temples, mosques and synagogues don't charge entry fees so are available to all.

The piano can also sound beautiful in harmony with the human voice, and childrens' voices alone can also be sublime. But yes, it's good news those other places are free of charge too - ok, give or take, the small donation.

Perhaps we should do something about the fact that this is restricted on the ability to pay. That doesn't sound good.

Probably the worst idea ever, teach about it but don't indoctrinate people. Ignorance is one of the biggest issues in the world

Good luck with your trolling re fee paying THM someone may respond..perhaps you could up the goading till they do?

FWIW you are happy with your choice as it reflects your view, why would you deny other parents the same choice? Ie no religion in education?
Its not like we are trying to force you to NOT worship.

The point I was making was that you need to teach people about the existence of religions and what it's about. This is what RE should be about.

The practice of religion is something completely different.

I have two....and lots of their mates. Very lucky all of them. Glad the such an opportunity still exists these days.

How is that any kind of reason/argument? What do you even mean by that?

This is what RE should be about.

And IS about IME.

Reasoned argument? Present cases where people have benefitted from the experience. Meant to be pretty obvious, not a parable! Plus the freedom to choose to have that option for them, for which I am very grateful. I had the same and so did they. I hope their grandchildren will as well.