[Closed] Religion in schools

...[b]forced[/b] act of worship to be an example of ignorance being forced upon us

No child is "forced" to take part, or even be present at an act of worship in school.

At least not in England.

Reasoned argument? Present cases where people have benefitted from the experience. Meant to be pretty obvious, not a parable! Plus the freedom to choose to have that option for them, for which I am very grateful. I had the same and so did they. I hope their grandchildren will as well.

It's nothing they couldn't get from a secular environment though. Still not an argument for the promotion of Christianity in schools.

...forced act of worship to be an example of ignorance being forced upon us

No child is "forced" to take part, or even be present at an act of worship in school.

At least not in England.

Parents can opt out but, as this thread shows, many don't know that it happens. Plus, all the other kids will assume that they're Jehova's Witnesses if they opt out, as they're usually the only ones who do, and who wants to make their kid singled out in this way?

If a school is following the official guidance, "passive attendance" is not acceptable. That implies 'forced'* to take part; I certainly remember kids being told off for not singing or not bowing their head in prayer.

*for a given value of force

If a school is following the official guidance, "passive attendance" is not acceptable

Yes it is.

If a school is following the official guidance, "passive attendance" is not acceptable

Yes it is.

That's not argument, it's just contradiction.

It also ignores the actual words of the actual guidance:

'Taking part' in collective worship implies more than simply passive attendance

- [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281929/Collective_worship_in_schools.pdf ]paragraph 59[/url]

Yes, paragraph 59 defines what "taking part" means.

For those that don't want to take part......

86 The right of withdrawal from collective worship would normally be exercised through the physical withdrawal of the pupil from the place where the act of worship is taking place. Indeed the school could insist that this is the way the right is to be implemented. If, however, both the parent and the school agree that the pupil should be allowed to remain physically present during the collective worship but not take part in it, nothing in the law prevents this.

That's not argument, it's just contradiction.

It's a good one though 😉

It also ignores the actual words of the actual guidance:

Not really, it's just read all of them, not just the bits that it wants to argue against.

I actually didn't know there was any rules regarding this until recently, and was quite surprised that there were. ( think it was a post from Junkyard that I first heard about them)That's when I read the guidelines.

It's nothing they couldn't get from a secular environment though

Fortunately, they are in a position to make their own minds up on that. Interesting #2 was revising Natural Law Theory yesterday (yes, it's in RE) and the secular version (Aristotle) verses the alternative (Acquinas). Rather than being indoctrinated they are fully able to make their own views on the Summum Bonum. Thank God for education!!

it's just read all of them, not just the bits that support it's view

touché 🙂

Fortunately, they are in a position to make their own minds up on that.

Why not wait until they are adults to let them make that choice? I don't think you can legitimately claim kids are freely making up their own minds when they've been indoctrinated from a young age.

Plus the freedom to choose to have that option for them, for which I am very grateful. I had the same and so did they. I hope their grandchildren will as well

think it was a post from Junkyard that I first heard about them)

The point I was making was that you need to teach people about the existence of religions and what it's about.

That it exists should be fairly easy to cover, whats it all about could be more difficult.

So, accepting that fact that my kids [i]would[/i] be entitled to spend part of their school day passively ignoring the singing and prayers, is it a good use of their time* and should it be something in which the state is engaging**?

*ten minutes per day is around 33 hours of school time per year, which is 400 hours over their school life
**active promotion of one (version of one) religion over the others

grum - Member
Why not wait until they are adults to let them make that choice?

As with lots of education, I believe that they are mature enough to be exposed to the beauties/horrors of the worlds religions (you decide). Ditto ethics, sex, calculus, and glaciation. Perhaps economics is indoctrination too far though?!?

I don't think you can legitimately claim kids are freely making up their own minds when they've been indoctrinated from a young age.

Well I can. We all discusses this over lunch in Monday. Every person around the table had their own views and had made up their own minds. The beauty of recognising that they are mature enough to take into account a broad church of views.

Well I can. We all discusses this over lunch in Monday. Every person around the table had their own views and had made up their own minds.

I would think for the vast majority the "choice" is to either follow their parent's/peer group's/school's* religion or don't bother at all.

*probably in descending order of influence but again for most I'd guess they're mostly the same for all 3, even if only "by default"

think it was a post from Junkyard that I first heard about them)
No it was Mikes link that i was quoting from so not mine - I did know there were rules though.

It was a while ago, in another of the many religion threads 😉

The beauty of recognising that they are mature enough to take into account a broad church of views.

So the beautiful organ music, signing and reading they experience in school worship comes from a range of faiths and tradition?

Well I can. We all discusses this over lunch in Monday. Every person around the table had their own views and had made up their own minds.

How many decided they were Muslim?

So, accepting that fact that my kids would be entitled to spend part of their school day passively ignoring the singing and prayers, is it a good use of their time* and should it be something in which the state is engaging**?

*ten minutes per day is around 33 hours of school time per year, which is 400 hours over their school life
**active promotion of one (version of one) religion over the others

Many parents would say the same about sport I suppose?

Others would say the same about Music, Drama, or Art ?

Others may say the same about RE in general.

You can't please everyone 100% of the time.

nealglover - Member

No child is "forced" to take part, or even be present at an act of worship in school.

No, but no young child wants to be the one kid that's taken out of class while all their mates are doing something else. And the parent needs to be aware of what's actually happening, which this thread shows won't always be the case.

Many parents would say the same about sport I suppose?

Others would say the same about Music, Drama, or Art ?

Others may say the same about RE in general.

You can't please everyone 100% of the time.

And those people are free to argue as to why these subjects should/shouldn't be included in the curriculum. Isn't it wonderful to live in a democracy?

Every lesson of those subjects will have a learning objective, with each child being set objectives which are specific to their aims and targets. They will be delivered in either age or ability groups.

What is the learning objective for a worship session? To recite the Lord's Prayer, again. To sing All Things Bright and Beautiful, again.

The curriculum lessons are aimed at education. The worship session is aimed at indoctrinating (however effectively/subtly).

I would think for the vast majority the "choice" is to either follow their parent's/peer group's/school's religion or don't bother at all.

Fortunately good education has ensured that this was neither my case nor my children's. We all have different views. Mine is probably the most eclectic (I reject the idea of religious exclusivity but find great wisdom in many religious texts), #1 the most knowledgeable by far and the most questioning.

Organ music is predominantly "Western Christian" - so a relief that is not forbidden. Readings etc from a wider base. Given that some of the most beautiful organ music was written under patronage of the church, it would be hard to avoid this. But I wouldn't want to avoid it anyway, it's remarkably inspiring.

Cougar - Moderator
How many decided they were Muslim?

All knowledgeable about Islamic theology, art and culture. None took the time to fully convert!

reading this made me remember this http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html

do not follow the link if you believe religion is not a suitable subject for levity .

Why is it then that at primary school they just default to Christianity?

the holidays and their education revolves around the Christian calendar.

My eldest is in P5 and they learn about the major religions and their festivities which is a good thing. However, they don't have any sort of religious teachings. I don't see what the point is you are trying to make other than you are pissed off at having to take time off work to sit through a boring play lol

And those people are free to argue as to why these subjects should/shouldn't be included in the curriculum. Isn't it wonderful to live in a democracy?

You seem to be trying to suggest I'm not allowing you the same freedom (but without actually saying it)

Of course you are free to to argue whatever you like, and I'm free to disagree with you.

(or point out inaccuracies in your argument)

As it happens, I don't disagree with you entirely, but I think that the perfectly viable "opt out" option covers anyone who doesn't want their kids to take part.

At school I mostly was "present but not taking part" for any sort of worship anyway. Not because I knew my rights, or because I officially opted out, just because it didn't interest me. Nobody seemed to care, and it didn't separate me from my peer group, or single me out in any way.

And that was Catholic Schooling, taught in part by Nuns, located in a "working" Nunnery, so if you can get away with "not participating" there without issues, I can't see it being a problem anywhere else.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/birmingham-council-investigates-muslim-fundamentalist-plot-to-take-over-local-schools-9177506.html ]Religion in schools is a good thing eh?[/url]

I think that the perfectly viable "opt out" option covers anyone who doesn't want their kids to take part.

And round and round we go. We've already explained the issues with this.

Opting out would be viable if it was normalised; as it is, it's a special exemption which singles out individual children as 'different', which is just what you want to be as a schoolkid.

Why not have it 'opt in' instead? So worship time is available to those who actively want to take part (or rather, their parents do, of course), and the rest can do something else constructive rather than sit on their own with a box of crayons for twenty minutes? Hell, if there's demand you can even have sessions for different faiths then.

The attitude persists that people in this country are Christian by default unless proved otherwise. I'd quite like to see that change.

Didn't know about the opt out, not sure I'd put kids through the issues with being singled out, as cougar says better to have an opt in, you would get a proper idea of numbers (of actual practicing) christians then. Quite possibly something the CoE don't want

And that was Catholic Schooling, taught in part by Nuns, located in a "working" Nunnery, so if you can get away with "not participating" there without issues, I can't see it being a problem anywhere else.

Except for the people who've already told you that it was a problem at their school of course.

Hi, my name is Lionel Hutz. Hearsay and conjecture are [i]kinds [/i]of evidence.

the holidays and their education revolves around the Christian calendar.

Not really - we have holidays for the winter solstice, Oestre and to get the harvest in. Seems reasonable to me 🙂

I read the 27b/7 link. I have to admit, the bloke who writes it seems like a right obnoxious ****. The chaplain seemed to come out of that alright - "Just tick the ****ing box and leave me alone" 🙂

A lot of David Thorne's output is, shall we say subject to "artistic licence." They're funny stories, but take them with a pinch of salt.

Except for the people who've already told you that it was a problem at their school of course.

Who's first hand experience of their kids not partaking have I missed ?

I've heard people saying they would imagine it to be a problem, but I haven't spotted anyone with any real world experience of it.

I will ask my OH later how the kids at her school cope, she has kids in her class that don't participate in music at school due to religious beliefs (Muslim) and two kids that don't participate in the "worship" or religious education based trips (Sikh I think)

Wait, Islam is opposed to music?

and art Cougar - they have adapted syllabuses to cope with this

I have had problems with it neal but i generally dont discuss my kids on here
Basically being out meant sitting on your own in a room [ a lower class - he used to try to do the work in higher classes so they stopped him going there- this is only ever used a punishment FWIW- so he could be supervised] and the exclusion meant he felt isolated and away from his peers and friends as he was. Its exactly the same as exclusion but through choice and it has some stigma about it as well as they believers in his school gave him some grief and called him stupid [ kids being kids though not a religious point]
It is a less than perfect solution and electing for this is far from ideal. It would be better and fairer if entire schools could opt out as everyone should have the right to choose and opting out is dooable but not in a practical manner.

he now goes as it less stressful and kids leave him alone.
he does not engage

Who's first hand experience of their kids not partaking have I missed ?
I've heard people saying they would imagine it to be a problem, but I haven't spotted anyone with any real world experience of it.

You're moving the goalposts again. You talked about your experience in school and extrapolated that to claim that if it wasn't a problem for you it probably wasn't for anyone else either. I've already mentioned my experience of school where it was an issue.

Why are you now talking about other people's children?

Why are you now talking about other people's children?

Well isn't that what we are talking about in general ?

Children at school. (I thought I had missed something relevant, so I asked what it was)

My own experience is just that, personal experience. Same as yours.

Without first hand experience of a child currently in school who isn't partaking and the effect it has on them, I only have my own experience to rely on.

As I said, I will ask my OH how the kids in her class get on. As she has current and direct first hand experience.

Basically being out meant sitting on your own in a room [ a lower class - he used to try to do the work in higher classes so they stopped him going there- this is only ever used a punishment FWIW- so he could be supervised]

I thought idle hands were frowned upon in religion

he now goes as it less stressful and kids leave him alone.
he does not engage

This was my point earlier.

Opting out "light" if you like.

The parents let the school know that their child will be attending, but not participating. Nobody needs to make a fuss, and the child appears (to his peers) to be the same as they are.

The school has met its legal obligation.

That seems a good way of dealing with things as far as I can see?

That seems a good way of dealing with things as far as I can see?

No, it's a weaselly way of dealing with it.

Not religious? That's ok, just sit there and pretend that you are. With a bit of luck when you're all growed up you'll do the same on census forms.

That seems a good way of dealing with things as far as I can see?

*I'm not suggesting every school is trying to brainwash children into following a religion.

The parents let the school know that their child will be attending, but not participating. Nobody needs to make a fuss, and the child appears (to his peers) to be the same as they are.

The school has met its legal obligation.

That seems a good way of dealing with things as far as I can see?

Or, we don't have religion in state-funded schools? That seems a good way of dealing with things as far as I can see.

Britain is the [i]only[/i] Western democracy to require worship in non-religious publicly funded schools. More info [url= http://www.secularism.org.uk/collective-worship.html ]here[/url].

The stigma attached to being singled out as different could also have quite an effect. Praying and singing to god is normal, you don't want to? well go and sit in that room on your own. Awesome.

So you didn't read [b]any[/b] of what came before the bit you quoted then ?

No, it's a weaselly way of dealing with it.

You might not like it, but If you are actually in a position where you need to deal with this, it's one of only 3* options you have for your kids.

1. Go along with it and join in.
2. Attend but don't participate.
3. Sit out completely.

*(Or change schools and go for an academy that don't have any communal worship)