[Closed] Religion in schools

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)

Theres more good is proper Christians though. 😆 The bit of good in everybody else is that bit you have to drag out when converting the them - in these people there is a bit of good morally wholesome christianity waiting to get out.

Seriously? Who TF says this then?

Well one of the first posts on the thread said this.

We are a country that has a Christian history and tradition - our laws, contracts, values and morals are all rooted in that history

It seams a fairly common (if mistaken) view that morality and "niceness" comes from religion and without it we would be a world of murdering rapists and monsters.

[i]back to the default religion bit? If you're not practising then shirley you're not whatever you (or your local church/school) try to identify yourself as. Can you identify yourself as a cyclist is you haven't ridden a bike since you were a kid? [/i]

Difference between Christianity as a belief in an old geezer in the sky and christianity as a set of cultural and moral norms that are unconsciously inherited from the social background.

Whether we believe in the old geezer or not, most of us are influenced by a shared christian cultural heritage. So if we do take part in any of that worship stuff Easter baskets and nativity plays will be the default.

Whether we believe in the old geezer or not, most of us are influenced by a shared christian cultural heritage.

Morally speaking, I'm not. At all.

So you've cherry-picked a nice positive thing that a religious person said and that somehow proves that religions aren't full of crackpot ideas?

I just gave an example of something that happened to me yesterday.

I thought this might be helpful because a lot of the talk on this thread about religious education seems to come from people with no current experience of it, talking about what used to happen 30 years ago when they were at school.

What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

like it or not, religion dominates the many aspects of today's world. To be naive about religious beliefs altogether would be a bad thing and led to less tolerance and understanding

One could even say that it poisons everything! Being dismissive isnt the same as being naive.

Fairy nuff, some people say it. I've don't recall anybody saying it to me. I need to spend some more time listening out for this kind of stuff I guess. I never hear it day to day. Even growing up and going through a Catholic education system, all my lessons on how to treat others came from my parents and teachers. The ones we paid least attention to were the fire & brimstone priests.

It seams a fairly common (if mistaken) view that morality and "niceness" comes from religion

I just disagree that it's as pervasive as some are making out...but I accept that this is a subjective view.

However...

and without it we would be a world of murdering rapists and monsters.

This seems somewhat of a stretch again (apologies if you're exaggerating for effect).

I was demonstrating that wasn't the case.

Playing fast and loose with the term "demonstrating" arent you?

So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

It wasn't a "selectively chosen statement" it was the main message of the talk given to the kids (as I said)

And it was to illustrate exactly what I said when I was asked last time.

Playing fast and loose with the term "demonstrating" arent you?

Sorry, I forgot. This is STW.

Guesswork and stuff that used to happen 30 years ago is better than recent personal experience, and stuff that actually happens, now.

Leviticus 24:16Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

Video evidence of this exists...

When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they'll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

Are you just going to pick something that isn't going to happen to argue against my point for something that did ?

I'm giving an example of something said by (some) religious people which may upset children.

I'm all for schools visiting various places of worship, and for learning about the beliefs of different faiths. It's worship of one faith as a part of the normal everyday school day with which I have a problem.

Guesswork and stuff that used to happen 30 years ago is better than recent personal experience, and stuff that actually happens, now.

No, it's just that irrelevant cherry-picked anecdote isn't a substitute for a reasoned argument.

[i]What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?
[/i]

To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.

Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).

Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.
Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).
Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

All correct.

And he is also a Senior Lecturer in Mechanical Engineering.

Very interesting fella.

No, it's just that irrelevant cherry-picked anecdote isn't a substitute for a reasoned argument.

How exactly is it "irrelevant"

The discussion is about how religion is taught in schools.

Yesterday I was on a school trip designed to teach children about religion.

My definition of "relevant" must be different to yours somehow ??

Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).

A philosopher could be described as a professional thinker, maybe many branches of science could be described as professional thinkers, but a theologian is a professional believer.

Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

Why would being religious automatically make someone respected, it is that kind of thought process that is damaging to fairness in society, but I can see why the religious would want to hold onto such an outdated notion, people should be respected for their actions not because of any arbitrary position they hold.

How exactly is it "irrelevant"

The discussion is about how religion is taught in schools.

Yesterday I was on a school trip designed to teach children about religion.

My definition of "relevant" must be different to yours somehow ??

You were using it as a retort to the idea that religions are 'full of crackpot ideas' - the fact that you had an anecdote about some positive stuff said by one religious person doesn't alter the fact that religions [i]are[/i] full of crackpot ideas, as I demonstrated with quotes from the bible.

So yes, it's irrelevant - because as far as I'm aware no-one was arguing that every single thing about religion is wrong/stupid. You're moving the goalposts now (as opposed to earlier which was more of a straw man).

Why would being religious automatically make someone respected, it is that kind of thought process that is damaging to fairness in society, but I can see why the religious would want to hold onto such an outdated notion, people should be respected for their actions not because of any arbitrary position they hold.

Totally agree.

As it happens, the man in question fits the bill in both cases anyway 😉

You were using it as a retort to the idea that religions are 'full of crackpot ideas'

What I was actually doing, was using it to demonstrate that taking kids to be educated about other religions isn't about trying to get them to believe in that religion.

It's about showing them differences in society and beliefs, and that not all people are the same in what they believe.

And that those differences are ok.

(I think a lot of people here could do with some of that to be honest)

Except that you were specifically replying to someone saying 'religions are full of crackpot ideas' by saying 'no they're not, look what this guy said yesterday'.

You're massively shifting the goalposts now.

It's about showing them differences in society and beliefs, and that not all people are the same in what they believe.

And that those differences are ok.

(I think a lot of people here could do with some of that to be honest)

That sounds great and I'm all for educating people about religion as a cultural/historical thing - but what you and a lot of other people could also do with is some clear, rational thinking and logic - not confusing anecdote with evidence.

Educating people about different religions isn't the same as indoctrinating them into a particular religion - I thought that would be fairly obvious.

Except that you were specifically replying to someone saying 'religions are full of crackpot ideas' by saying 'no they're not, look what this guy said yesterday'

No i wasn't.

I was replying to.....

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

Which was about kids going to different places of worship and learning about them.

[img] [/img]

but what you and a lot of other people could also do with is some clear, rational thinking and logic - not confusing anecdote with evidence.

My personal experience and ongoing involvement in this exact area certainly trumps any "evidence" I've seen posted in this thread.

By the way, I'm not religious in any way.
I'm not a parent trying to get kids into a "good school"
Or a teacher with anything to prove.

I'm just a "bystander" if you like.

(With a theology A Level 😉 )

To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.
Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).
Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

All correct.

And he is also a Senior Lecturer in Mechanical Engineering.

Very interesting fella.

Surely his lifelong study of fairy stories trumps all of his other qualifications? in fact why bring it up?
I suppose it shows he didnt waste all of his study time

My personal experience and ongoing involvement in this exact area certainly trumps any "evidence" I've seen posted in this thread.

By the way, I'm not religious in any way.
I'm not a parent trying to get kids into a "good school"
Or a teacher with anything to prove.

I'm just a "bystander" if you like.

(With a theology A Level )

Why are you being coy about what your actual experience/involvement is? Why do you go on school trips if you're not a teacher or even a parent? 😕

Because my other Half is a teacher at the school, and sometimes they have problems getting enough adults to supervise the kids on the trips.

As someone who would have previously been against these sort of trips (but without any actual knowledge of them, like most on here) I've had my opinion changed by actually seeing what happens and what the children get from it.

Having seen it first hand, I can't see a single negative in it.

And as I said, that's from a staunch EX catholic who has no time for religion at all generally.

I've had my opinion changed by actually seeing what happens and what the children get from it.

You've seen what one group of students gets from it. In other schools, in other contexts, there maybe very different experiences.

Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.

Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.

care to link to some primary sources as i smell bullshit except in maybe an odd case which will probably be put in special measures.

care to link to some primary sources as i smell bullshit except in maybe an odd case which will probably be put in special measures.

Are these good enough as primary sources?

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2014/03/government-complicit-in-redaction-of-exam-questions-on-evolution

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/mar/09/schools.religion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10322872/Non-Muslim-teachers-forced-to-wear-veil-at-faith-school.html

these are just the high-profile cases that I'm aware of off the top of my head.

Those are hardley representative or the norm.

Those are hardley representative or the norm.

Well, that's ok then 🙄

How do we feel about, [url= http://www.prayerspacesinschools.com/home ]Prayer Spaces in Schools[/url] which "enable children and young people to explore faith and spirituality from a broadly Christian perspective in a safe, creative and interactive way"?

It's an initiative of [url= http://uk.24-7prayer.com/ ]24-7 Prayer[/url] which "exists to reconcile the world to God in Jesus Christ" who [url= http://uk.24-7prayer.com/stories/kingdom-come-500-prayer-rooms-so-far/ ]claim that people have been healed of various conditions, including eczema and Chron's disease in their prayer rooms[/url].

They're [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/state-schools-an-open-door-for-evangelical-groups-to-push-creationism-warns-study-8872452.html ]one of many groups going into state schools to [s]push their beliefs[/s] offer support to children[/url].

If you live near Bristol, [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/wont-go-back-to-creationist-zoo-bristol ]your kids could go on a trip to Noah's Ark zoo[/url]!

What's wrong with studying fairy stories?

What's wrong with studying fairy stories?

Nothing at all, provided they're presented that way, and not as fact.

I would hope as a teacher you would know what a primary source is, clearly not.

As far as what have you produced is concerned:

(i) The first one is an Orthodox Jewish School in Stamford Hill, one of the two main areas of Orthodox Jews in London. Would I prefer the parents at this school gave their children a better chance at answering exam questions? Yes but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?

(ii) The second is a scare story, long on irrelevant facts but the kids will still be taught evolution.

(iii) This school has been closed down.

The point being that this is not wide spread and is certainly completely alien to what the Church of England has been teaching in schools for years.

miketually - Member
Those are hardley representative or the norm.
Well, that's ok then

I would hope as a teacher you would know what a primary source is, clearly not.

As a teacher, I finished marking at 9pm and have just got the kids to bed, so can't be arsed trawling the internet.

you are using extreme cases to vilify a larger group. Which is fairly disingenuous.

I was using those cases to counter an earlier example.

completely alien to what the Church of England has been teaching in schools for years.

Which is what?

(i) The first one is an Orthodox Jewish School in Stamford Hill, one of the two main areas of Orthodox Jews in London. Would I prefer the parents at this school gave their children a better chance at answering exam questions? Yes but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?

It's a state-funded school. I think that gives the government some say in what exam questions they should answer in a science exam.

Nothing at all, provided they're presented that way, and not as fact.

Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn't like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.

but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?

Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn't like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.

Remember, RE is distinct from worship.

My primary school (I left in 1988) had a daily act of collective worship, including hymns and prayer, plus a prayer before lunch was eaten. It wasn't a faith school, it was a bog standard primary on the edge of a council estate, with no link to a church.

The [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281929/Collective_worship_in_schools.pdf ]guidance on what RE/worship should be carried out in all state schools[/url] is fascinating:

Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God ... All registered pupils attending a maintained school should take part in daily collective worship ... , it must in some sense reflect something special or separate from ordinary school activities and it should be concerned with reverence or veneration paid to a divine being or power ... 'Taking part' in collective worship implies more than simply passive attendance

I don't think most parents realise that this is a legal requirement in all schools.

Generally speaking RE teachers* believe in much the same way as economists believe in economics and the market
We get a self selected non representative group of believers doing the teaching [ generally]just as we get generally right wing folk in economics. Not many atheists or commies study the the the thing they dislike and then go on to teach it

* I have nothing more than anecdote and some limited experience - no figures are available that I am aware of but I am prepared to be illuminated by evidence unlike the faith based approach to understanding 😛

As a teacher, I finished marking at 9pm and have just got the kids to bed, so can't be arsed trawling the internet.

If you spent less tine posting on here you would probably finish alot earlier.

I was using those cases to counter an earlier example.

Which I presume you think is an extreme case.

Which is what?

Accepted science, maths, humanities and a bit of wishy washy theology.

I'm getting flashbacks to primary school assemblies!

[img] [/img]

This was the hymn book. I remember pretending to pick the nose of the lad on the left, and feeding his bogies to him.

I also remember rewording some hymns slightly:

Who built the ark,
No-one, no-one,
Who built the ark,
Bloody no-one built the ark!

🙂

If you spent less tine posting on here you would probably finish alot earlier.

This is perfect for ten minute breaks.

Which I presume you think is an extreme case.

And?

Accepted science, maths, humanities and a bit of wishy washy theology.

Which includes specific reference to a divine creator.