[Closed] Religion in schools

You never know, they might shave their heads and chant Harri Krishna for the rest of their lives. It will be their choice. Get over it.

It's unlikely they'll freely choose, as they'll have been repeatedly told that the unbelievable things Christians believe are fine and normal whereas other religions' unbelievable tenets will seem very odd.

It could be argued that official religion in schools, on TV, on the radio, in civic life undermines children's free choice later in life.

I did think Christianity involved a bit of Christ's life and I'm sure being born is probably there somewhere. Please enlighten.

Read the link above.

How many people actually believe Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable and literally resurrected?

Pretty much nobody I'd say. I'd also include a few RC priests and Christian Brothers I met over the years in that number.

I couldn't care less about religion

Then why did you assume that Atheists would not be taking those days as holidays?

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

They're also known as Bank Holidays. Does that mean you can only take the day off if

a) You work in a bank?
b) You are a Christian?
c) You are a Christian Banker?

🙄

d) It's a day off, and im not complaining

I'm always intrigued that the anti-religion brigade are SO touchy when challenged.

All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

It won't make you a fundamentalist terrorist of the Irish or Muslim variety. Militant refusal to apparently even consider such a possibility is just as unhealthy, in my view.

Which some of you think is the stupidest thing you've read on here, apparently. You need to check out a few more threads! 😆

Religion can be a great thing for people-

"People whose lives are barren and insecure seem to show a greater willingness to obey than people who are self-sufficient and self-confident. To the frustrated, freedom from responsibility is more attractive than freedom from restraint. They are eager to barter their independence for relief of the burdens of willing, deciding and being responsible for inevitable failure. They willingly abdicate the directing of their lives to those who want to plan, command and shoulder all responsibility." - Eric Hoffer

If this supposed indoctrination was successful children would REALLY believe in their religion. It would be like the 17th century or the crusades all over again and you wouldn't be able to move for religious strife.

I don't think there is some evil plot to turn all state school pupils into Christian religious zealots.

Although nativity plays, Easter baskets and a bit of hymn singing seems good at producing atheists with really serious issues.

What do you mean by religious education? I'm not suggesting kids in state funded schools shouldn't learn about religion, that would be ridiculous.

Bienvenue en France 😉

I think it's absolutely nuts too FWIW. On one hand you have muslim raised kids on council estates who blame everything bad in their lives on occidental decadence and the jews, whilst on the other, you have the bourgeois catholics (who blame the state of modern society on muslims and jews) sending their kids into private schools with cateschism from 3 years of age.

At least with general religious education you can teach tolerance, which should be the aim of it, rather than moralising.

At least with general religious education you can teach tolerance, which should be the aim of it, rather than moralising.

He speaketh the truth.

a bit of hymn singing

Hymns were never that shrill when I was at school. Are the CofE ones worse? 🙂

I'm always intrigued that the anti-religion brigade are SO touchy when challenged.
All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

No, what you said was that not wanting kids to be indoctrinated in schools is just as bad as extreme religious fundamentalism. Which is absurd nonsense.

It's not about being touchy - it's about pulling people up on it when they come out with absurd nonsense.

I bet they don't actually go and take part in a service at a mosque or synagogue though do they?

Yes.

I was on a school trip yesterday with a class of YR3 kids.

We went to the local Hindu Temple and the kids took part in a service that was part of the Hindi New Year Festival.

Fire, Chanting, Offerings to God's Incarnations, all the stuff atheists get wound up about really, it was great 😉

Is a hindu temple a mosque or synagogue then? 😉

Sounds good as a cultural learning experience. Going to one thing occasionally isn't the same as repeated worship of one faith though.

And we never did anything like that at our school.

Gay marriage they dont seem keen to tolerate that in our society and needs special rules so they can treat them differently from every other body.

Don't take my attitudes to faith schools as approval for every view in religions, I'm not religious.

I just don't happen to think, from my experience that it is a bad thing to have the options there for people, nor do I believe indoctrination happens at these schools. As I mentioned that happens in the home.

If this supposed indoctrination was successful children would REALLY believe in their religion. It would be like the 17th century or the crusades all over again and you wouldn't be able to move for religious strife.

Objective RE is a good idea but afaik it's done with a very CoE spin on it at most UK schools.

but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

On this point, why not, don't religious people pay taxes?

MoreCashThanDash - Member

All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

I'd agree with that but that's not what's on offer- we're talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

On this point, why not, don't religious people pay taxes?

People, or religious institutions?

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

Funnily enough, they are not bank holidays for my employer so I will be working

we're talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

..which a nice full circle to my original point, the fact that Christianity seems to be the 'default' position and is not taught in the same way as other religious which seem to be more about 'look what other people believe in, whilst the rest of us are Christians.'

All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

we're talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

This.

"Today, children, we're going to visit a mosque. That's a bit like a church, but for people who are wrong. Not like a proper church, where the vicar who does an assembly every week works."

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

like it or not, religion dominates the many aspects of today's world. To be naive about religious beliefs altogether would be a bad thing and led to less tolerance and understanding

[i]which a nice full circle to my original point, the fact that Christianity seems to be the 'default' position and is not taught in the same way as other religious which seem to be more about 'look what other people believe in, whilst the rest of us are Christians.' [/i]

True at your local school possibly because most pupils come from a Christian background (not necessarily "practicing" though). If the school was say, 40% Hindu 40% Muslim it may take a different approach.

[i]This.

"Today, children, we're going to visit a mosque. That's a bit like a church, but for people who are wrong. Not like a proper church, where the vicar who does an assembly every week works."
[/i]

Or this

"Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God. They just choose to do it in different ways. Today we will look at some of the ways they are the same. We will start with the story of Adam and Eve."

Or this

"Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God. They just choose to do it in different ways. Today we will look at some of the ways they are the same. We will start with the story of Adam and Eve."

This is exactly how religion should be taught in school, as comparative religion. It should happen in specific lessons, and not take the form of worship at all.

"Christians believe that..."
"Muslims believe that..."
"Jews believe that..."
"Hindus believe that..."
"Sikhs believe that..."

Of course, then you get into the differences between different sects of the same religion, so it's actually impossible to teach it clearly.

"Christians believe that marriage is between one man and a woman. Apart from the ones who don't."

Is a hindu temple a mosque or synagogue then?

No, but the mosque and the synagogue trips are already booked in.

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

The priest gave a talk to the kids after the worship at the Hindu Temple yesterday.

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh 🙄

"OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays."

why do Christians in this country take Christmas day off given that Jesus appears to have been born on January the 4th? or in June depending which way you work it out .

Easter is even more questionable but at least the chocolate eggs and bunnies get us back to it's real meaning .

The Brick spoke wisdom on page 2.

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

That's brill.

When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they'll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody

[img] [/img]

Priest Fail

My OH is an RE (or BPE as she calls it) teacher. She makes a big effort not to favour Christianity. That may be because she's got Buddhist leanings and doesn't really have time for any of the 'big' religions. She's had instances of parents storming into school demanding that she doesn't show little Billy how to tie a turban "Because we don't believe in that foreign sh*t" and other such bigoted nonsense.

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

It is a seasonal holiday, which Christianity has tried to take as it's own, there is no evidence for when biblical events took place in a calendar year (or where it does exist it isn't when the religion observes the date). The church at some point in the past choice those dates because that is when festivals already existed.

in modern terms it is a bank holiday that coincides with a religious observance.

Same applies to morality (and did someone claim law?) The church didn't create rules used by society to all get along, they just tried to claim them, it is nothing but political spin. And it is no surprise that over the last century as the power of the church has wained equality has moved forward despite the fight against it by the church.

When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they'll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

Are you just going to pick something that isn't going to happen to argue against my point for something that did ?

My OH is an RE (or BPE as she calls it) teacher. She makes a big effort not to favour Christianity. That may be because she's got Buddhist leanings and doesn't really have time for any of the 'big' religions.

I like the cut of her jib

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.
What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

Are only religious people qualified to say stuff like that?

but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.
On this point, why not, don't religious people pay taxes?

Why does paying taxes mean we should be indoctrinating children? Paedophiles pay taxes too - should we accommodate their wishes?

Priest Fail

🙄

Are only religious people qualified to say stuff like that?

Did I hint anywhere that I thought that ?

No. Obviously I didn't.

Did I hint anywhere that I thought that ?

No. Obviously I didn't.

So why did you mention it? You were clearly implying - 'isn't it great that he taught them this lovely positive message.'

My point is why do we seem to feel this is exclusively the realm of the religious?

True at your local school possibly because most pupils come from a Christian background (not necessarily "practicing" though)

So why did you mention it?

Because it was suggested that taking kids and educating them about other religions was "filling their heads with crackpot ideas"

I was demonstrating that wasn't the case.

If you just read what I wrote, and what I quoted and replied to, it's not that hard to figure out.

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

Hahah +1

Because it was suggested that taking kids and educating them about other religions was "filling their heads with "crackpot ideas"

So you've cherry-picked a nice positive thing that a religious person said and that somehow proves that religions aren't full of crackpot ideas?

15. Numbers 31:32

These were the spoils which remained of the plunder taken by the fighting men: 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and as for persons, 32,000 young women who had had no intercourse with a man.

14. Genesis 16:8And he said “Hagar, Sarai’s slave girl, where have you come from and where are you going?” She answered, “I’m running away from Sarai, my mistress.” The angel of the Lord said to her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to ill treatment at her hands.”

13. Genesis 15:9The Lord answered, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat, three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.”

12. Deut. 25:11When two men are fighting and the wife of one of them intervenes to drag her husband clear of his opponent, if she puts out her hand and catches hold of the man by his privates, you must cut off her hand and show her no mercy.

11. Genesis 19:8“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

10. Deut. 28:53Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you

9. Judges 3:21And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the dung came out.

8. Mark 14:51A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked.

7. Genesis 38:9Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

6. Ezekiel 16:17You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them.

5. Kings 2:23Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

4. Deut. 23:1No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God.

3. Leviticus 24:16Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

2. Exodus 4:24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, “Surely a bloody husband art thou to me”.

1. Ezekiel 23:19Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals – as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

And yes, I'm cherry-picking too - but at least I can recognise that.

My point is why do we seem to feel this is exclusively the realm of the religious?

Seriously? Who TF says this then? Poster tells of a nice thing that religious person says (and a secular message at that) and you're trying to twist it into some kind of claim that only religious people claim they can do that? A bit of a stretch now isn't it?

Seriously? Who TF says this then?

Christians?

Without morality, there is no basis for reconciliation, and without God, there is no basis for morality.

http://www.christianity.co.nz/moralit2.htm

or

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-we-be-good-without-god