[Closed] Religion in schools

I'm very atheist and am against the indoctrination and labelling of children.

Followed by,

My wife's Catholic and our son's baptised. It doesn't really bother me

Not sure I understand the logic there.

Because being baptised means no more to me or him than a little splash of water. Very different to indoctrination.

He goes to a non-denominational public school. If he was going to a school where it was explained to him that anyone from a different faith was going to hell blah blah blah then ... well, he wouldn't.

Ok, so your not that bothered about the labelling of children if the label doesn't mean anything to you.

So anything religious is fine as none of it would mean anything to you.

It means a lot more to you wife obviously.

Just have confidence in your daughter having the intelligence to make her own mind up. After all, that worked for you, and I'm sure you were subject to the same pressures.

Lots of folk have their children baptised or christened so that they can get them into nearby denominational schools because they feel they're performing better educationally - of course, whether this is true or not is another debate. Heck, I even considered it myself as an option for putting the little fella into a local Catholic school. Other than that, it wouldn't mean anything to me.

The problem lies when a society at large associates morality and religion too closely. This can be seen by the fact that the church has some default seats in the house of Lords, primarily to offer moral guidance. This is not to say that it is a bad idea to have some seats reserved for those whose main concern when considering legislation should be that of morality and society; but it is bad when that view point comes solely from that of a religious perspective, and only one religious perspective.

+1

Other than that, it wouldn't mean anything to me.

I'm not suggesting it should.

But as far as religion "labelling" goes, it's a pretty big one surely.

Hypothetically speaking...

I would be doing it totally hypocritically (as do, I assure you, many others who do the christening/church on Sundays/etc) to get my child into a "better" school. I'd have to turn up to Mass most Sundays. Maybe help with a bit of chippying in the church for free sometimes, bring a cake every so often and stick a fiver in the collection basket. Not much effort really. My child wouldn't be going around with a big "I'm a Roman Catholic, Bite Me" t-shirt all the time. Everyone would look at his uniform and me going to Mass saying "Yeah, you're only doing it for the schooling..." and they'd be right and I'd have to live with that. But millions all over the country do the same every week - and it really means bugger-all to them in the grand scheme of things because they feel they're getting a better education for their children and we all know that's THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER!!!! No-one I know whose child goes to a Catholic school really believes all that shite - the most I could say is that some are agnostic bordering on atheism-lite (rather than STW style atheism, say). I'd assume that without the push from the parents (which mine wouldn't get), the "indoctrination" wouldn't take hold. That's pretty much my experience when discovering after losing my dad (who was the one who pushed us into church and was the "believer") in my teens that actually, my mum didn't really believe most of it - I soon got sense. I haven't been inside the door of a church (other than for organised displays of hypocrisy for friends) since I was around 15, IIRC.

The churches (CofE and RC) need arses on pews on a Sunday - and if it has to get this by better schooling (again, I'm not advocating it) - then that's what it does. If Catholic schools weren't out-performing their non-denominational counterparts, their respective chapels would be mostly empty.

I don't see any possible justification for indoctrinating children into religion, and the state certainly shouldn't be funding it. If people want to be religious they should be given the choice as adults.

I was brought up a Christian and went to Christian schools and it caused me a lot of anguish when I decided I didn't believe in any of it. Even late on in secondary school you were made to feel like a troublemaker if you didn't want to attend church services, and this was at a state comprehensive with no strong religious affiliation.

I am going because she will be proud of herself and she wants to share that, happy enough with that.

You are thinking too much about it. What you have said above is all that matters.

Children should have RE to better understand that people may or may not have a belief. Then let them draw their own conclusions.

Interesting replies, disappointing lack of religious nutters threatening me with Hell though.

I guess my kids are sharp enough to work stuff out for themselves. I went to a RC primary school and soon sussed out my own views. They will do the same in time. Like I say though, I welcome them being taught about beliefs, just a bit uneasy that it would appear Christianity is taught to them as [u]the[/u] religion, rather than just one of many.

Bless you all for your contributions! 😉

We are non religious, kids go to a CofE aided school, and Guide/Scout groups linked to local churches.

They sometimes go to church through these links. It hasn't done them any harm. They learn about all religions at school and through the media, not all of it positive. Neither child has any indication of being religious one way or the other.

It strikes me that parents who have issues with religion in school or wider society may have some issues of their own. Refusing to learn about and try different experiences seems to me to blinkered and just as fundamentalist as the extreme end of any religion.

It strikes me that parents who have issues with religion in school or wider society may have some issues of their own. Refusing to learn about and try different experiences seems to me to blinkered and just as fundamentalist as the extreme end of any religion.

🙄

It strikes me that parents who have issues with religion in school or wider society may have some issues of their own. Refusing to learn about and try different experiences seems to me to blinkered and just as fundamentalist as the extreme end of any religion.

My experience is that many atheists* know the bible/Christianity better than many "Christians", and generally rather a lot more about other religions than "Christians".

*people who have consciously decided they're an atheist while living in a western 'Christian' country, rather than people who are simply without a belief in a god.

Refusing to learn about and try different experiences seems to me to blinkered and just as fundamentalist as the extreme end of any religion.

We learn through observing and studying, there is no requirement to partake, especially when there are multiple things to study.

MoreCashThanDash - Member

Refusing to learn about and try different experiences seems to me to blinkered and just as fundamentalist as the extreme end of any religion.

There's a difference between learning about religions and learning religion.

I wonder how it would go down in schools if kids were made to 'try out' being a Muslim.

It's not trying out different experiences it's trying out one experience and learning a bit about some others.

Refusing to learn about and try different experiences seems to me to blinkered and just as fundamentalist as the extreme end of any religion.

No its not and that's probably one of the most stupid things I have read on here.

There's a difference between learning about religions and learning religion.

you have summed up my feelings much better than I have managed to! The learn about other religions, then learn Christianity.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Basically this is a complete non issue.
According to you, obviously for the OP it isnt.
It seems many people on here are part of those "default" 70%.

As people have mentioned, kids are wise enough to figure it out for themselves.

Of all the people I know that go to church and take religion seriously, the main influence in that has been their parents.

Talk of indoctrination in schools is well wide of the mark.

ps I'm non-religious, i'm one of the ones that figured it out when I was 11/12 year old.

grum - Member

I wonder how it would go down in schools if kids were made to 'try out' being a Muslim.

Like this idea, you do it on rotas right? Monday you're a muslim, tuesday you're a christian, wednesday you're a buddhist, thursday you're a hindu, friday you're into shinto, Saturday you're an atheist, and you chill on sunday. (no offence to judaiism, I picked shinto because it rhymes with into)

Sure, kids are smart enough to figure things out themselves, but does that mean it's OK to try to brainwash them? On teaching time?

some of the views expressed above are frankly stunning. i m not a church goer kids go to a catholic school ( wife and family are catholics)

to dismiss people who believe as DD does is insulting to me. i have seen thier faith been incredibly comforting to the MIL and her sister who was literally a sister.

i ve never met a more inspiring thoughtful person than the MIL's sister. she was open honest and frankly the most interesting woman i ve ever met.

her faith was strong unquestioning and supported her through caring for desperate folk in desperate times.

i never heard her once speak of religion or for or against any faith or lack of it.

religion as she practised it was a way of life that meant giving everything she had practically and emotionally in support of others

we should be grateful that there are people such as her who make enourmous lifetime sacrifices for others.

if this thread was around peoples sexuality it would have been closed long ago for the bias and insults.

Northwind - Member
Sure, kids are smart enough to figure things out themselves, but does that mean it's OK to try to [b]brainwash [/b]them? On teaching time?

btw I also went through a period in my 20s when I was completely non religious and absolutely opposed to it. But well then I grew up and realised what actually happened.

to dismiss people who believe as DD does is insulting to me

Most people who actually attend church each week (~2% of the population IIRC) will believe, although not perhaps what you'd expect them to believe and (in England) they probably won't be fundamentalist or evangelicals).

Most people who tick the "Christian" box on the census (~70% of the population) won't believe. Sadly, this figure is the one used to maintain the influence religion has on policy and education (in England) rather than the [url= http://davidkeen.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/latest-church-of-england-attendance.html ]ever-declining church attendance figures[/url].

we should be grateful that there are people such as her who make enourmous lifetime sacrifices for others.

Lots of non-religious people do good stuff too - I'm not sure what your point is. You could argue people who do good deeds without the supposed reward of going to heaven are more altruistic.

if this thread was around peoples sexuality it would have been closed long ago for the bias and insults.

Where are the insults? And sexuality and religion are hardly the same are they - one is innate.

not quite sure how that fits in with brainwashing myself.

All you're arguing there is why religious indoctrination isn't that bad. Are there any reasons why we should do it though?

How exactly does this brainwashing work? During prayers for 2 minutes every day, or during the couple of events you go through and the prep for that(basically first communion, confession and confirmation(we did a play about the dangers of drugs, which was about 80% of it)) not quite sure how that fits in with brainwashing myself.

It was a great point made above, that people would think differently if kids were being marched off to other religious institutions.

I would much rather see religion in schools taught like history, geography or english lit discussing the merits and points of the cases. Understanding traditions and significance of those in world events. Looking at tolerance and understanding and how to accept that other people may not believe in the same version of history, concepts or ideas and that it's OK.

It's also important to understand that a society can function without religious guidance and is capable of it's own moral compass.

All you're arguing there is why religious indoctrination isn't that bad.

Yes but just because it isn't [i]that[/i] bad - that's not a good reason for doing it.

And personally I think it is quite damaging that we are taught to equate things like morality, social conscience, community spirit etc with religion - because people realise they don't believe any more a lot of the other stuff falls by the wayside too.

We should be able to teach kids to be good people without threatening that the magic man in the sky will get angry if they aren't.

Dunno about primary schools, but middle schools are supposed to teach about different faiths as part of RE. Ideally part of the curriculum should involve visiting mosques, churches, Gurdwara, synagouges etc. but of course this is restricted by local availability and time in the school day. Even adult atheists can learn a lot from talking to practitioners of particular religions.

English schools do not necessarily have a Christian bias. The enthusiasm in observing a particular festival can depend on the predominant religion of the pupils at that school.

Most people quite like a bit of pageantry, and that's what a lot of religion is. You can have a bit of fun without actually believing.

Its the Jehova's Witnesses kids I feel sorry for. They're not allowed to take part in anything.

Dunno about primary schools, but middle schools are supposed to teach about different faiths as part of RE. Ideally part of the curriculum should involve visiting mosques, churches, Gurdwara, synagouges etc. but of course this is restricted by local availability and time in the school day. Even adult atheists can learn a lot from talking to practitioners of particular religions.

I bet they don't actually go and take part in a service at a mosque or synagogue though do they? And on a regular basis?

I'll be very surprised if they do. I certainly didn't at my schools. We were taught about other religions but essentially taught that ours was the right one.

that's not a good reason for doing it.

Faiths schools, only make up a certain percentage of schools, they aren't every school so there are options for people if they want to. Plus as has been mentioned, you can opt your children out of the religious parts if you like.

Well in society there are people that believe it is a good idea, in tolerant society, we try and accommodate these people.

By the same token - shouldn't they be tolerant of people who don't think it's a good idea and not try to force it upon them? If religious people want to indoctrinate their children I suppose that's up to them - but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

Faiths schools, only make up a certain percentage of schools, they aren't every school so there are options for people if they want to. Plus as has been mentioned, you can opt your children out of the religious parts if you like.

My school wasn't a faith school, and we still went to religious services and had prayers in assembly etc. And you were made to feel like a troublemaker for opting out.

I was brought up a Christian and went to Christian schools and it caused me a lot of anguish when I decided I didn't believe in any of it. Even late on in secondary school you were made to feel like a troublemaker if you didn't want to attend church services, and this was at a state comprehensive with no strong religious affiliation.

In contrast, I went to a Catholic Primary and then a Catholic Secondary school.

When I decided around the age of 14 that I didn't want to attend Church anymore it didn't cause me, or anyone else, any anguish at all.

School were perfectly understanding about it, and already had arrangements for those who didn't want to attend.

My Mum, who is Catholic, was also understanding about it, and knew it was my decision to make and was happy as long as I was happy.

I wasn't made to feel like a troublemaker by anybody, and had the freedom to make my decision and do what I felt suited me.

And you were made to feel like a troublemaker for opting out.

English schools do not necessarily have a Christian bias.

They do. By law.

My Mum, who is Catholic, was also understanding about it, and knew it was my decision to make and was happy as long as I was happy.

When she's in heaven, you'll be in hell.

seosamh77 - Member

How exactly does this brainwashing work?

The same way religious indoctrination always works. Normalize rituals as part of everyday life, "educate" people in things to worry about (ideally make some normal everyday activities a sin, for maximum guilt) and tell them you can fix that. Ideally do it as young as possible. Better still, do it in a school, make it an opt-out so that anyone not taking part feels left out of something their mates are doing, because kids love being outsiders. And it's all in a learning environment where you're used to trusting what you're told, 2+2 is 4, i before e except after c, jesus died for your sins...

Religion can be a great thing for people- I'm not religious, I don't really understand it but I can respect people's choice. But we're talking here about trying to influence that choice, in the finest traditions of evangelical faith.

And don't tell me it won't influence them; why would we do it otherwise? It's not purely educational, that's obvious. It's as convincing as when tobacco companies say their adverts don't influence people to take up smoking.

If religious people want to indoctrinate their children I suppose that's up to them - but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

I agree to a certain extent, but from another perspective, what would happen if all religious education was wiped off the curriculum apart from in private religious schools?

How exactly does this brainwashing work?

As mike notes its conditioning if you want to claim it doe snot work notice how many folk who never ever go to church and never will still call themselves religious and broadly christian

Well in society there are people that believe it is a good idea, in tolerant society, we try and accommodate these people.

Remind what their tolerant message is to me- a non believer who sins I believe they say- what exactly happens to me then? I bet its a lovely message of how much they tolerate my free choice and respect it....its is isn't it?

[i]English schools do not necessarily have a Christian bias.

They do. By law.
[/i]

What the law says and what actually happens can some times differ.

I wasn't made to feel like a troublemaker by anybody, and had the freedom to make my decision and do what I felt suited me.

Lucky you.

I notice no-one has yet come up with any argument as to why children [i]should[/i] be indoctrinated into a religion - just reasons why it might not be particularly damaging for some people.

Are you all similarly relaxed about Muslim faith schools?

what would happen if all religious education was wiped off the curriculum apart from in private religious schools?

What do you mean by religious education? I'm not suggesting kids in state funded schools shouldn't learn [i]about[/i] religion, that would be ridiculous.

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.
How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don't give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?
I couldn't care less about religion but go to church when required-Weddings/Funerals/Whatever.The kids will make their own mind on religion when they grow up. You never know, they might shave their heads and chant Harri Krishna for the rest of their lives. It will be their choice. Get over it.

How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don't give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?

You do know that christmas is a tradition that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity don't you?

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn, held on December 17 of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through December 23. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.[1] The poet Catullus called it "the best of days."[2]

Funnily enough the church seems to have sacked off the bit about reversing social norms.

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.
How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don't give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?

I celebrate the arrival of spring and the winter equinox, so take time off for those 🙂

Seriously, they're the result of out Christian heritage and culture. As a cultural Christians, many atheists celebrate Easter (yay, chocolate eggs!) and Christmas (yay, booze and pressies!) without giving any thought to their Christian meaning.

How many people [i]actually[/i] believe Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable and literally resurrected?

When the early Roman Church established a festival to celebrate the Messiah's birth, it timed that festival to coincide with an existing pagan festival celebrating the birthday of the sun god. By co-opting existing pagan rituals and customs, the church sought to win the pagan masses to its idea of Christianity, allowing converts to continue to practice familiar customs—just calling them by different names.

The "mother and child" motif in religion was well known in the ancient pagan world. The ancient Babylonians and Egyptians worshipped a "Madonna" whom they revered as the "Queen of Heaven"—a title that the Roman Church would apply centuries later to Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Egypt, Isis was the mother and Horus was the child. In Mesopotamia it was Ishtar and Tammuz.

.....

So, instead of seeking to put Christ back into Christmas, we must acknowledge that He was never there in the first place! Christmas never was Christian! True Christians will give it back to the pagans, to whom it has belonged all along! Instead of borrowing from the world around us, we ought to take our religious customs and practices directly from the Bible. Then we will be worshiping our Creator in spirit and truth, just as He teaches us to do (John 4:24).

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2004/november-december/is-christmas-christian

You do know that christmas is a tradition that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity don't you?

No. As I said

I couldn't care less about religion

I did think Christianity involved a bit of Christ's life and I'm sure being born is probably there somewhere. Please enlighten.