[Closed] Religion in schools

i thought education was supposed to be secular unless it was some sort of religious denomination school ie "xyz Catholic primary" or whatever.

this was my presumption anyhow.

Is it a C of E school?
Or, heaven forfend, Catholic?

i thought education was supposed to be secular unless it was some sort of religious denomination school ie "xyz Catholic primary" or whatever.

Nope: all state schools in the UK are required by law to have a daily act of collective worship, which is broadly Christian in nature.

A)don't go, it's like any other school performance that your child is in. You can't be made to attend a school play, or to watch your daughter play sport
B) go, because it's something that your child is participating in, and you'd like to see her.

We are a country that has a Christian history and tradition - our laws, contracts, values and morals are all rooted in that history even if the population is largely agnostic or atheist. I'm an atheist, I'm actually from several generations of atheists and have never been baptised or christened. I'm definitely, certified, not a christian. But I recognise that I'm an atheist within a christian tradition and my views and values are part of that, as are the laws I have to adhere to and the social contracts I make - such as marriage, family structure and fidelity, and the business contracts I make - such as loans and interest. So I'm a different kind of atheist to an atheist from atheist from any other tradition.

Never happened at either of the secondary schools I went to.

No, not a CofS or Catholic school. They are happy to have the local Minister come along all of the time though, don't ever see a catholic priest, rabbi, imam or monk in the school (to be fair, not many of them around this way)

Just give it a swerve unless it will upset your lass - Only you know. I'm as atheist as it gets but I still went to the nativity every year because one of my lads was a wise man or whatever. British religion isn't really religion it's more like a way to use nice churches so they don't become flats and get better funding for certain schools.

I am going because she will be proud of herself and she wants to share that, happy enough with that. Would just prefer it not to be in church!

Nope: all state schools in the UK are required by law to have a daily act of collective worship, which is broadly Christian in nature.

this is frankly bollocks

I only go to church for weddings and funerals

hows that different to the service your daughter is taking part in? Its an occasional social obligation - if the school were requiring her to be in church every sunday that'd be something different. But its easter, its a one off and theres probably some chocolate involved

And why, for the sake of balance, are you not equally going to mosques, synagogs and hindu temples for weddings and funerals too? 🙂

I don't have a problem with religion, I see how it gives a lot of people comfort. I just don't like the way school seems to assume that the kids are Christian without actually teaching them that belief is a choice, in the same way that they could chose to be Buddhist etc.

its only primary school - she's got plenty of education left to fill in any blanks

Relax, from what my kids tell me Secondary schools are pretty much inline with your agnostic views (presumably not the catholic or Churchy academies though). For primary does it really matter? At that age the pros out weigh the cons, and most kids are in two minds about Father Christmas still.

And why, for the sake of balance, are you not equally going to mosques, synagogs and hindu temples for weddings and funerals too?

Would love to but not had the opportunity yet. Did go for a day out last summer to [url= http://www.samyeling.org/index/visiting ]Samye Ling Monastry[/url], it was amazing.

Consider it a life lesson in politeness. eg taking off shoes at other people's house's, respecting them if they say grace at mealtimes. Sometimes you have to do stuff to keep other people happy even if they believe in imaginary things.

I played Tambourine once in a service because I wanted to and I thrashed everyone at the audition.

Keeping kids out of stuff because of "religion" is as daft as religion in the first place. And you don't have to go to every thing your child is in. That's a good life lesson too.

I think it does very much matter that a child is being indoctrinated in this manner. Going to a service is fine maybe but reading out a prayer is a step too far imo. Imagine a muslim being asked to do this or a catholic in a c of e church.

We live in an "officially" Christian country. By default it's the primary religion of most people (in some variant). Not really surprising it's "taught" as default.

I went to christian schools, religious Scout groups etc. I learned very little (of Christianity, or other religions), it didn't interest me and I didn't see any relevance to real life or any interest for me. Same applied to all of my friends. Why worry, any half-sane child will make their own mind up when it actually matters?

I think it does very much matter that a child is being indoctrinated in this manner. Going to a service is fine maybe but reading out a prayer is a step too far imo. Imagine a muslim being asked to do this or a catholic in a c of e church.

Its not indoctrination though is it?- its participation in a social occasion - the OP says himself, he attends church services when the occasion calls for it, my muslim friend attend church services such as weddings and funerals when the occasion calls for it - they don't find it a big deal. School is practice for life isn't it?

Well the very fact that people think you can have a "default" religion based on country of birth is pretty sad imo. It highlights why I wont allow it for my son. If he decides for himself to be a god botherer I suppose it would be different but he aint going to default to anything.

I always remember "RE"being a doss subject but the most significant stuff i learned in school was in "SE" and "RE".

Maths, English, Science...pah. Mrs. Walker and Mr. Volwerk educated me in morality. Showed me genocide and horror. They taught me "humanity" and it's been far more constructive than long division or d=v/t.

Decade since and i remember my lessons in living far more than lessons in "learning".

Teachers are important.

Who cares, you think too much. Your kid will grow up believing whatever they want to believe. I was brought up Catholic and went to a Catholic secondary school, am now an aethiest. If anything you should be thanking them because being exposed to that BS daily will make them realise that it is BS a whole lot quicker.

I went through years of this "indoctrination" in Irish catholic schools. What kids go through in CofE here has nothing on what we went through. I don't believe a word of it now. It took me till my early teens to realise it. Nor, as far as I could ascertain, did any of my friends in university. Nor as far as I can ascertain do any of the ones I'm still in touch with now. I'm not saying "indoctrination" is a good thing, far from it, but in organised hypocrisies such as Western European Christianity, we tend to come out the other side of these things ok.

Well the very fact that people think you can have a "default" religion based on country of birth is pretty sad imo

who thinks that?

Hail Satan! 😈

Going to a church service to see what daft shite they get up to would be participating in a social event. Getting a person who is non religous to lead the prayers is a step too far and if you struggle to see that going to the odd funeral or wedding is different I guess discussing the matter with you is a waste of time.

We live in an "officially" Christian country.

Do we?

Going to a church service to see what daft shite they get up to would be participating in a social event. Getting a person who is non religous to lead the prayers is a step too far and if you struggle to see that going to the odd funeral or wedding is different I guess discussing the matter with you is a waste of time.

this is when I start to feel embarrassed about being an atheist. I actually feel shame when I read nasty crap like that

Well the very fact that people think you can have a "default" religion based on country of birth is pretty sad imo. It highlights why I wont allow it for my son. If he decides for himself to be a god botherer I suppose it would be different but he aint going to default to anything.

Wiki Quote:
"The Church of England is the established church in England.[329] It retains a representation in the UK Parliament and the British monarch is its Supreme Governor."

I don't believe any other religion has this in the UK?

70something % of the population considers themselves Christian in some form.

I'd say these things make this the default religion of the UK. It doesn't mean it's one you might want, or it's right to have a default. But it IS the default.

Lots of older schools were built using "christian" money to educate the poor and so by default have some sort of religion attached to them, obviously not so much now in a broadly secular society. Last school, obstenstably non-denominational but in a christian way. Did have imams, rabbis etc coming in to talk to the assembly (which ironically always ended with a nice sing-song) and went to sammy ling (sp).

I ignore th egod part but like the be nice to each other "rules" for life, which lets face it is pretty much what reiligion is, with a bogey man for the bad and a reward for the good, and an opportunity for the shysters to fleece the gullible.

Nope: all state schools in the UK are required by law to have a daily act of collective worship, which is broadly Christian in nature.

The Education (Scotland) Act 1980 (s8) recognises that historically it has been the practice for religious observance to be practiced within Scottish state schools; and permits local authorities to continue the practice provided that parents have the ability to "opt out". Scottish Government guidance is that any child whose parents have opted out should receive worthwhile education in its place.

In order for a local authority to chose not to provide this blanket approach it has to poll the entire electorate. Inevitably that makes it easier to continue than contemplate the alternative. There is no requirement for the activity to be daily. Scottish government guidance is for at least 6 times per annum. Parents have a right to withdraw their children which should be made clear and with sufficient information to base the decision on. The reality will almost certainly be different. I know of schools where if your child is not participating they should not attend school, and others where the activity they will be given is not of educational value. I've not tested it at our school as my son doesn't want to be "the only kid in the class who doesn't go".

Why in the 21st century this is still the case is a good question, but if you thought that the state was independent of the church you aren't looking very far. Sadly despite the scottish government's vocal commitment to removing sectarianism from society they have done little to address it.

but like the be nice to each other "rules" for life, which lets face it is pretty much what reiligion is,

Personally i think the slow move to a less religious society is a blessing but its a slow journey.

Edit.

Lets not forget that about a quarter of all primary schools are owned by the church, and the government is allowed to use the land and buildings for free...

We had similar issues at junior school. I simply politely declined and asked them to make alternate arrangements for my son. The school made various huffing noises about having to provide staff to look after my boy whilst the rest of the school went to church, but it was done.

To be honest we're the indifferent type of atheists as a family and we've raised both our boys to be objective and open minded and come to their own conclusions in good time. But I was pretty upset at the time about the general assumption that all the school children were by default Christian and that it would be ok to spend a morning in church, rather than at school. If the school had approached it differently, it probably would not have raised my ire quite so much.

To its credit,the school goes to great lengths to accommodate other religions, not so much those without a faith.

70something % of the population considers themselves Christian in some form.

Its only really 70% though because it what people default to because of things like the OP is talking about. I don't think most people really think about religion, but when they are asked in a sense they think, "Well, I was christened", or "My primary school was CoE", or "I guess I kind of believe in something" and because cultural default is Christianity that is the box they tick, because they don't think are are not bothered. Many of these people may not believe in God or if they "believe in something", that does not mean they are Christain, its just something they haven't thought about or don't think about much and just plump for the easy answer because they are not bothered. They may have some vague believe in a higher power this does not make the christian. A better question(s) might be:

1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and he was sent to earth and he died to cleanse humanity of all our sins, that he rose again then ascended to heaven. That this shows God love for humanity as he sacrificed his son for humanity.
(This is my understanding of Christianity please correct if I am wrong)

Then a second question:
2. Do you believe in some form of higher being, or God, that there is someone or thing "above" us in some way?

I strongly suspect you would get a lot less than 70%. answering yes to #1.

Religious freedom is very important, and for many it offers great comfort, direction and community. In the OPs case he should just go and treat it as one of those going to see the kids things, but it is not right that the state should be funding religious schools and that if no one asks send them to a Christian church as default. It should be an after hours club if you are interested, that not to say schools should not teach about different religions, more teaching will occur to christianity due to the nature of history but this is different to being taken to church by the school.

Its also very sad that moral philosophy in frequently only taught within the context of religion, because it makes people equate morality with religion. Its not helpful for people to believe that the only way to morals are through religion, in fact personally I would say religion can (not does, can) hinder moral philosophy for some people due to immutable facts within their faith. This is definitely not the case for all religious people as many are very open to debate. The problem lies when a society at large associates morality and religion too closely. This can be seen by the fact that the church has some default seats in the house of Lords, primarily to offer moral guidance. This is not to say that it is a bad idea to have some seats reserved for those whose main concern when considering legislation should be that of morality and society; but it is bad when that view point comes solely from that of a religious perspective, and only one religious perspective.

[/End waffle]

P.S. From a personal point of view it would not so much aggravate me that my child was being taken to Church in terms of a cultural education but that they were being take to Church as an act of faith. Which given the fact that the op mentions that his child is doing a reading of prayer would suggest it is, I would not feel it to be right to ask someone who is not of faith to give a prayer. There is a massive assumption here that the OP child has not found God and he just does not know about it.

From my experience catholic schools aren't about indoctrination. They are about moralization. Nothing wrong with them. And tbh outside of primary school the catholic bit is virtually non existant. And even at primary schools its not the main focus. They even taught us about other religions and to respect them.

Now that's my experience of schools from the 80s and 90s. I'd imagine it takes even more of a back seat these days.

If people end up overtly religious they are getting it from their home IMO.

Basically this is a complete non issue.

Just go to fill up the bureaucratic tick box as it is only for a day then take it from there. That's how I will do it.

Hey what do I know as I am not a person of one God.

its okay for your daughter to believe in a fat bearded bloke in a red suit but not to take part in a religious service the basis of which is pivitol to the calendar and in this instance the reason she had pancake day and will be tucking into chocolate eggs in 3 weeks and not been able to sleep with excitement on the 24th december

our daughters go to a catholic school in the grounds of the catholic church, they ve been to mosques and synagogues this week they ve been tasting halal and kosher foods to highlight that infact there are no differences in taste just in preperation and the reasons behind that.. all seems fair and laudable to me.

i'm not relgious as i m from yarkshire and there is only one god

totalshell - Member
its okay for your daughter to believe in a fat bearded bloke in a red suit but not to take part in a religious service the basis of which is pivitol to the calendar and in this instance the reason she had pancake day and will be tucking into chocolate eggs in 3 weeks and not been able to sleep with excitement on the 24th december

These pivotal parts of the calendar which over right the previous festivals of mid winter and spring, where many old beliefs and mythologies are rolled up into a modern idea.

Schools should go to churchs, mosques, synagogues etc, in the same way they go to farms, zoo's and exhibitions. To look, observe and understand whats going on.

There was a great quote from Miroslav Volf () http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Volf)

Once you separate religion from power, then religion can be politically, publicly engaged and you don't have either secular exclusion of religion nor religious domination of society but you've got a vibrant, pluralistic society debating the nature of the good life.

If parents want to send their kids to religious schools then fine but just make sure they are going to cover the whole curriculum [url= http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-26437882 ]Jewish school redacts exam to remove evolution questions[/url]

I'm very atheist and am against the indoctrination and labelling of children. My wife's Catholic and our son's baptised. It doesn't really bother me as I'm sure he'll be intelligent enough to see the evil in religion and the beauty in science for what it is. Whenever my wife says our son's a Catholic, I make sure to point out he's a Tory, a staunch supporter of Exeter Chiefs and believes strongly that the free market works with extremely limited government intervention.

I went to a CofE prep school so know enough about religion to make it laughable.

Even though I went to a CofE school a few years ago (I'm 30 now), we learnt about Jews, Hindus, Muslims and the other 'main' religions.

See the morning as an education in what Christians believe for your daughter and not her selling her soul to a god. Enjoy it for what it is. Overcoming her nerves and reading to a crowd!

I'm very atheist and am against the indoctrination and labelling of children.

My wife's Catholic and our son's baptised.[b] It doesn't really bother m[/b]e

😕 Not sure I understand the logic there.

Basically this is a complete non issue.

According to you, obviously for the OP it isnt.
It seems many people on here are part of those "default" 70%.