MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Starting tonight on BBC4 9pm. My initial thought was "no thanks, I remember it when it was happening". BUT, it looks pretty worthwhile if you have any interest in how these things develop. The first episode goes back to the 19th century and the ousting of the French colonialists.
Cheers. I might have a look at that.
Top man I'll take a look at that. Cheers for the heads up.
Yeah, recorded.
I remember the fallout from it (being v young in the states late 70’s/80’s)
😕
Thanks for that..
Is this the Ken Burns documentary series?
Thanks, recording
Sam Harris interview with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick describing the painstaking detail involved in the making of the serios.
[url= https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-impossible-war ]Sam Harris Podcast[/url]
Thanks.
Very good so far, was gonna go to bed but sucked in.
You'd think after the legacy of colonialism and repeated attempts to supply arms and advisors and eventually troops to prop up despots around the world that it always ends badly.
And yet we are still doing just that, Saudi, Yemen etc
Fascinating Docu. What a mess it all was....
Also, as our we get more freedoms of what can be shown on TV, the true horror of the images recorded at the time can now perhaps be finally seen. The amount of awful footage is staggering. A lesson to all
You'd think after the legacy of colonialism and repeated attempts to supply arms and advisors and eventually troops to prop up despots around the world that it always ends badly.
Look at Afghanistan. Hundreds of years of in-fighting, sponsored at various times by all sides. No winners.
It's astonishing isn't it? No-one ever learns.
Was Kennedy's admission of failure at the end re the coup a public speech or private recording?
Not very often you hear a politician admitting something like that
It is on the Sky box, so looking forward to watching it tonight. Ken Burn's Civil War documentary was fantastic too, and worth watching if it is still available.
It's astonishing isn't it? No-one ever learns.
On the contrary (unless you mean us grazing and stupefied Joe Public) our politicians have learned very well how to foment and use an 'enemy' abroad in order to hold onto their throne at home. We send a frown or a laugh on Facebook as they rip countries to pieces. Same at home. Reducing the number of [s]disabled people[/s]/ [s]disability benefit claimants[/s] sick and disabled people by driving them to suicide? Hmm, better send a frown on Facebook, but be sure to keep the Government responsible in place because they are going to save the very NHS they are selling off, er, by leaving the EU and showering it with love. Of course they will! 'Mmm, wonder what's on telly tonight, did you buy those crisps I like?...'. 'Not not people dying, too depressing, whatabout Gogglebox? It's like looking at me looking at you looking at me!?' 'What's on Facebook?' ,'Me, liking your like of me frowning at your like of yesterday's like!' Pass the crisps...
Commentary here on The apparently overlooked civilian angle (I've not seen it)
Commentary here on The apparently overlooked civilian angle (I've not seen it)
I've not seen the whole series yet, but within the first few minutes they'd gone through the death toll, from the tens of thousands (US troops) through to the millions (Vietnamese civilians). It didn't look like they were ignoring the impact on non-Americans, albeit there's a long way to go.
I also note that the guy writing that piece has a book to flog..
Like War itself, everyone see's things with a different view.
This is a long, glossy, expensive documentary, for Television.
Unlike in a 'specialist interest' book, had they spent 18 hours just interviewing people about the horror, then they would have had zero viewers after two episodes.
Far better to tell a Story well, and have that Story heard, than get caught up in individual details, and have no one listen, imo!
(all wars are horrible to the people caught up in them. It doesn't what, where, or when they occur.)
That is a pretty bitter review.
Part3 on now
No winners.
That’s a bit naive.
Brutal, just brutal. there are no other words.....
Damn stayed up to watch it all again, now going to bed with a grim feeling of dread for humanity
This is worth a read, an incredible story of what someone is capable of surviving (physically and mentally):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Five-Years-Freedom-James-Rowe/dp/0345314603
Just watched the first 3. Staggering! The American government had been told that even with 200,000 more troops it was still unwinnable, yet they still went ahead
It seems like we truly have learnt nothing, as Iraq and Afghanistan seem to follow the same cycle.
Repeat to fade...
Mad to hear that some of the white guys lived in completely segregated communities, and serving alongside them was the first time they'd met anyone black or Hispanic.
One guy said 'we found out we were all the same. Poor.'
Just watched the first 3. Staggering! The American government had been told that even with 200,000 more troops it was still unwinnable, yet they still went ahead
One senses - in the eyes of the US Gov - that defeat is not an option when you can simply expend x thousand more individuals as cannon fodder. Far better to at least have a chance of achieving your outcome as opposed to "losing" by quitting early.
Re the Middle East, TE Lawrence argued it was impossible for Westerners to win them over through any form of integration/occupation. That was nearly 100 yrs ago. He was right then and he will be right forever more.
cheers for the reminder, eps 1 & 2 were brilliant. Will stick on 3 now.
It's on the PBS website as well.
I can't get iPlayer at the moment, so I will be watching it here.
[url= http://www.pbs.org/show/vietnam-war/ ]http://www.pbs.org/show/vietnam-war/[/url]
I'm enjoying it as well... It feels like it is sticking to the original script and the frightening thing is it sounds like some of this history is repeating...
What really surprises me is how stupid the people in charge were..why? How? Do stupid people keep getting elected? Great documentary though 🙂
You would think America, having been involved in a number of unwinnable wars, would know better by now. But no, they keep leaping in.
[i]Do stupid people keep getting elected?[/i]
I'm not aware of any evidence of this.
Just watched the first 3. Staggering! The American government had been told that even with 200,000 more troops it was still unwinnable, yet they still went ahead
It is amazing, the US government knew very well (and understood) it was unwinnable and they were supporting an unacceptable regime (both johnson & kenndy said as much) seems like they were pushed along by the last 15 years of the "national" rhetoric; we are the leaders of the free world and we have to stand up to the red menace. So much so it became like a noose around their necks slowly dragging them into the conflict. A fascinating watch!
If you are interested in this period in Asia try and find a copy of The Quicksand War by Lucien Bodard about the French in Indochina from 1945 to 1958 ish it will blow your mind about what the French actually tried to achieve with a fraction of the men and resources of the Americans in later years
Ep 5 just finished, and straight into Ep6. Must watch TV imo, in all it's horror......
Yeah it's a good-en.
Have always been very interested in the propaganda and shady stuff governments of all varieties pull leading into these situations. It really is fascinating the lengths they go too.
Speaking of which the tug of war over Cyprus is another very interesting little episode in recent history.
Heads up. Ep7 & 8 tonight from 10pm !
I used to work beside a guy who was just annoyingly good at stuff but never boasted about things.
We were talking about some previous Vietnam programme when he tells us he was there. His parents were missionaries and he was lifted off the American embassy on one of the last days. He remembers being on a yank naval vessel watching film of street fighting outside what was his house. It took three weeks to get reunited with his parents.
I think that even at such a young age he was affected by the conflict and invasionary American force, ironic given his parents "job".
shit that was grim watching
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
absolutely shocking that the soldiers were never punished
although as said, when its bombs dropped on civillians no one cares
I've binge watched the first 6 episodes, pleased to hear there are more! It's a really well made doco..
I loved that it was narrated by Peter Coyote. What a guy!
Last 2 on now
If you are interested in this period in Asia try and find a copy of The Quicksand War by Lucien Bodard about the French in Indochina from 1945 to 1958 ish it will blow your mind about what the French actually tried to achieve with a fraction of the men and resources of the Americans in later years
Having collaborated with the Japanese to starve the civilian population during WW2, it's not surprising that the French weren't terribly popular with the locals...
Just watching episode 9 now. Perfect post night ride viewing
Watching the footage of Nixon is a timely reminder that having a president as repellent as the present one isn't a new thing. You couldn't have a more marked contrast with the dignity and elequence of John Kerry's speech. I've never seen that footage before. And the veterans throwing their medals away outside the White House. Incredible. Powerful, articulate and moving stuff!
Mrs Binners has also pointed out that for a war, it had a bloody great soundtrack!
The John Kerry speach, just speachless watching that.....
Such a powerful, irredeemably pointless war and waste of life that can never be rationalised as a whole. Thousands of individual stories of courage, horror, suffering but also firendships made in the worst circumstances. In some ways, the dead have had the easiest time of it.
I'd see the still photograph of the napalm hit young girl, but never the moving footage.
On a more cheery note, has anyone been to Vietnam, i really want to go now!
A good documentary but I would also like to see one from the North Vietnamese perspective. Although Vietnam became communist later on deep down they were never communist like most people in that region. Communism is just another form of invading ideology that will slowly disappear.
it is a great series and one other thing struck me which sort of made some sense about the gun lobby and gun laws. Why perhaps there is strong feelings not to repeal or reduce gun ownership...
The piece where students were on campus facing off to the national guard who opened fire and killed protestors... That was both shocking and an insight into where current thinking is.
No wonder citizens want to arm themselves against this sort of possibility and no wonder there is such a negative feeling against police and authorities.... US history informs on what has happened in the past and guides current thinking and attitudes.
rickmeister you have a point rear gun laws but a direct parallel would be bloody Sunday (and many other NI shootings on both sides) and yet the population doesn't call for arms.
The gun lobby supported by and driven by the manufacturers and nra is twisting the "right to bear arms).
Anyway looking forward to watching the rest of the series.
OHI, I see the parallels but I think NI was a political governance / religious issue whereas the US campus shooting was a protest... bit different for me...
Its a great series how the film, music and commentary work together. Shame they haven't played Gimmie Shelter (or did I miss that?)
Agreed about John Kerry's speech, summed up the entire disastrous venture.
I’ve not seen the final episode yet but I’ve been a bit disappointed that there hasn’t been anything more than a mention of the allies of the US and the impact upon them.
Maybe it could have done with an episode just to cover the protagonists other than Vietnam and the US?
Can anyone recommend an equivalent documentary covering the Aus, NZ and Taiwanese involvement?
It felels like the series could have done with more episodes as episode 9 felt rushed compared to the previous ones.
Good documentary for someone like me who knows little of this war, the build up to it and the political idiocy that continued it.
What a total clusterf*ck of a war. All the mistakes, petty hates and stupidity repeated endlessly, we have learnt nothing since then.
On a more cheery note, has anyone been to Vietnam, i really want to go now!
Me too,I've been looking here https://www.exodus.co.uk/vietnam-holidays
I've just finished watching the last 2 episodes,I thought it was a excellent series.
I have a sister living in the States,her partner,Coop, is a Vietnam vet,I've never asked him about his service but my dad says he opens up every so often.According to my dad he volunteered with two of his mates,he was the only one to survive.
The other year one of my nephews was in Vietnam & Coop was commenting on how he was there at the same age under different circumstances...
I have missed Ep 2-4 of this and Ep 5 disappears next wed - any other source to view this? -
I thought Ep1 was great but not had any time to watch the rest.. didn't think BBC would remove it so quickly.
If you liked this get a copy of "Despatches". Written by Micheal Herr it covers a lot of stuff from the war correspondent's POV. Excellent read.
Edit: and search out the work of Tim Page. An excellent photog his book "Mentioned in Despatches" has a lot of his images from before a friendly fire incident left him thoroughly ****ed over.
On a more cheery note, has anyone been to Vietnam, i really want to go now!
Yes been going regularly for nearly 20 years, probably my favourite destination in Asia. Their perspective on the war is as you’d expect, also it’s clear the division North / South was very bitter and those in the South suffered post North’s victory being seen as collaborators. I had numerous Vietnamese colleagues who would speak occasionally although the “all seeing state” prescence could be felt quite clearly
surroundedbyhills - MemberI have missed Ep 2-4 of this and Ep 5 disappears next wed - any other source to view this? -
I thought Ep1 was great but not had any time to watch the rest.. didn't think BBC would remove it so quickly.
Episode 1 is on again on BBC4 at 11:35 on Saturday 4th Nov. so I'm guessing they are repeating the whole series.
Thanks forza thought I'd missed this.
Cheers!
Just got around to watching the last couple of episodes. I'm not the only one who blubbed like an idiot, am I??
The guy who was saved by his dogs wanting to come back in, while he was sat with the gun in his mouth,about to pull the trigger?
And then almost all of the final episode, especially the bit about the memorial?
No, don't know what you're talking about.... 😐
No no none of that 😉
(And the naked girl from the infamous photo hugging her baby...)
Fortunately I watched the last couple of episodes after everyone had gone to bed - the last one in particular got me right in the feels. The quiet dignity of those who had been through that kind of horror was really humbling.
What got me was the marine recounting how he saw two of his buddies get killed trying to rescue him..... how do you live with that?!? pfff.
Edit: And the footage of soldiers throwing their medals over the barbed wire fence at congress - Powerful stuff.
The whole series should be required viewing - so many parallels between Vietnam and almost every conflict/intervention since. Having watched it/heard from the civilians and combatants on both sides, I can't see myself supporting any kind of conflict intervention in the future. The recordings from the Whitehouse just made me ANGRY
I'm not the only one who blubbed like an idiot, am I??
Nope! The bit with the memorial got me..